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Boycott plastic balls |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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POOR KNOWLEDGE WILL INCUR HOT TROUBLES.
2 $ per one? Unreasonable money wasting, anyway. You. Americans, seem all to be some money wasters unaware of the better cheap source of ball supply, indeed. We do now enjoy a china trusted supplier of superior plastic, 0.6$ a piece. |
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NoRema
Silver Member Joined: 02/04/2015 Location: On The Table Status: Offline Points: 564 |
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Yes this will teach the ITTF to change rules on us!
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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They will never play exactly like celluloid because they are all ab out 0.5 mm larger, which is a feature not a bug. That reduces the speed and spin some, which would be true even if they were made of celluloid. But there is no reason we should have to accept the low bounce, the deviations of roundness and the fragility. And in fact, we don't have those problems if we stick to seamless. I would add NP40+ to that group except that they more or less don't exist anymore, at least you can't really buy them |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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Watching the recent German Open and Spanish Open on the ITTF Tour, I don't believe I've seen any significant drop in play quality as a whole compared to previously (before the plastic ball). How come all of these low-level players on a forum have such a hard time with this new ball (to the point of boycotting and what not), when seemingly high-level players are doing just fine, all things considered.
All this whining, all the time. AcudaDave – you're one of the few people on this forum I've actually played in real life (2013 tournament) – and my memory of you was about all the complaining you did. Complaining about a young kid in our group "chooing" when playing you, complaining about you being sick (and how it related to you not being able to play well), complaining about the lighting, complaining about your rubbers... on and on. Dear lord, let's be honest. You're just not that good - I beat you fairly easily 3-0. And I'm not very good either. I'm vastly overweight, I never practice, and I tend to play with horrible shot selections. My point being, COME ON... stop all this whining and enjoy playing. We're not PROS and never will be. Plastic ball or not, it doesn't f***** matter. Just like it didn't really matter for anyone here when we went from 38mm to 40mm.
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sweetstrike
Silver Member Joined: 11/30/2010 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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I could probably adjust to the seamless ball if they offered it in orange
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Throw a protest, yeah !!
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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My target is to pay $1/ball or less. I can almost do that with the seamless ball right now.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Pondus, thanks for your observations. So what is your view of the ball? Have you played with it? What was your reaction during the German Open Men's Doubles final when the ball was replaced 3 times by the pros while trying to find a usable ball?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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Hmmm...you seemed like such a nice person pondus. I was sick that day and did play badly but you're right I shouldn't have complained. Anyway that's besides the point. .. the balls are not good as they break often and some of them like the DHS balls play like recreational balls. This thread really want meant to be that serious but it seems that you've taken it seriously. Any other big time sport would have had all this worked out before they mandated playing in tournaments with them. I hope I get the chance to pay you again some time so I can return the favor.
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Sounds like a SMACKDOWN MATCH in the brewing...
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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kurokami
Gold Member Joined: 11/08/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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not sure but some people have trouble while others like myself have had little problem adjusting. i think it depends on how you hit.
i have no complaints beyond durability and current color offerings. our club now uses all white, but i still find orange easier on the eyes, mostly bc the lines on the table are white and most walls are a light color. if someone happens to hit exactly on the line, it's very difficult to track.
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Viscaria
H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
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NoRema
Silver Member Joined: 02/04/2015 Location: On The Table Status: Offline Points: 564 |
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Edited by NoRema - 03/30/2015 at 10:25pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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To Pondus I would respectfully reply as follows: Great pros are great pros and they make anything look good, but even they do not actually care for these balls (based on a few comments they have made in interviews) an opinion shared by the top US players (based on conversations I have had with close friends who are among the top US players). And of course pros don't have to pay for their balls, and at professional tournaments they will test 10 or so balls, provided for free by manufacturers to find one or two round ones.
The introduction of plastic balls led to a marked increase in price and a marked increase in the number of different playing properties that you have to be prepared to adjust to (for those of us down here who are not pros, anyway, since ITTF players will only use the seamed DHS ball). I switched to the plastic balls early on, earlier than most people, and I have been using nothing else for about 9 months now. I am glad that one class of balls is quite reasonable (seamless), unfortunately these are not the ones that have been adopted most widely for use in competitions. If XSF and DHS had not fallen out, seamless would be the standard and I doubt there would be many complaints. I think it is fairly appalling that so many companies are selling such an inferior product and have had the nerve to charge a premium price for it. I've never met Dave in person and I'm not that good either, but I still think we ought to let the market work in a way that forces use of a better product. The better products in this case are the seamless balls, and the Nittaku Premium 40+. Until Chinese seamed balls come with acceptable durability and roundness, we ought to not buy them. |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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I was a nice person. I am a nice person. But you weren't that day. You were looking for excuses left and right for why you were playing the way you were. And you were being obnoxious toward a little kid for saying "cho". You were yelling: "CHOOOOOOO... DO YOU LIKE THAT, HUH???" at him when you would make a point. He was like 13 years old. What the hell? And you were so outwardly worried about your rating... and how you would lose rating points by losing to me. Come on, man... what is all that about? Who cares? Maybe you had a bad day (behavior-wise) - but that day you represented a lot of the things there are to dislike about the TT circuit here. Just enjoy playing, and don't get so caught up in all those little things. I mean, table tennis can't seriously be that important you, right? It's just a little hobby to have fun and get some exercise, right? Honestly, it's not like me to write that post above - so I apologize. But all this complaining about this and complaining about that (equipment, rules... etc.) just gets so old. As far as the ball - stuff like that happens in other sports as well. The NBA had a very unsuccessful ball change some years back. Equipment rules change constantly in golf. That's not to say that I think the apparent lack of longevity with this new plastic ball is awesome... but they'll get it figured out. It's not really going to cause any issues - certainly not for you and me. The same way we would have be fine playing a pick-up game of basketball with the new NBA ball. And, yes, if we do get to play again some day, I hope you do beat me - and do it in a friendly, non-complaining manner. I would have no problem with that. Table tennis is really not that important to me.
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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Baal: I agree with everything you wrote. I guess I just don't get that wound up about it. Of course, if there are sh** products (as it sounds like some of the plastic balls are) don't buy them. Those products will eliminate themselves over time. As far as general pricing, that's a different conversation. I understand that a jump up in cost for balls sucks (compared to celluloid), but again I believe these things will be straightened about by the market over time. As a whole, table tennis still has a fairly low entry cost compared to many sports... even with slightly more expensive balls. In comparison, the best golf balls are 3-4 Dollars a piece.
As far as pro-players not liking the new ball... yeah, neither did most pro-players when the switch was made from 38mm to 40mm. But has the sport as a whole really suffered from that change? The majority of the best players in the world today don't even know what it would be like to play with a 38mm ball. Same will be for the best players in the world in 10 years - they won't know what it was like to play with a celluloid ball. Things evolve, things change... it's all good. You and I have seen many changes over the period of time we've played TT - from the balls, the point system, speed-glue, red/black rubbers... etc. and some of these changes seemed SO drastic at the time. But the sport is still okay, isn't it? I guess that's my point... don't get so worked up over this new ball thingy... it will all be okay.
Edited by Pondus - 03/30/2015 at 11:00pm |
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NoRema
Silver Member Joined: 02/04/2015 Location: On The Table Status: Offline Points: 564 |
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Pondus you've become my new favorite poster. Finally some post's that don't just bash on the new ball and complain about it. It's refreshing to see the way you post about it versus the way AgHx post's about it.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Maybe - the main difference is that we know who Pondus is and he is a good guy so we can give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that he and AcudaDave know each other helps with the issue. FWIW, I think complaining about the ball is part of market action, as is AgHx's view, as is Pondus's, so I don't think it is an overreaction. OTOH, I wasn't playing this actively when the 38mm to 40mm change was made so for some it might be deja vu.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Pondus, my solution is to just buy seamless and avoid the crappy balls as much as possible. You are right though, it is just ping pong.
Actually some other old guys may disagree with me on this one, but I found the 38 to 40 transition to be fairly easy (rather like the adjustment now to a seamless ball) but I still find it pretty hard to adjust to the seamed Chinese balls, even though they are only 0.5 mm larger. However, it was easier after I had played with seamless for several months. |
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ThePongProfessor
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/17/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1528 |
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I have been - and in principle - remain critical of the adoption of the NP40+ balls as THE tournament ball in our region (NW), since you can't get buy it from anywhere.
We have now been using the XSF (and its clones) for three weeks, and I must echo the comments on this and other threads: the seamless play very nice, have excellent durability, and are sold at a relatively low cost. The seamed balls, with the exception of the elusive NP40+, are garbage. Yes, let's boycot, but not against plastic balls per se, but the inferior seamed chinese plastic balls.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Another one joins the growing movement. |
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IanMcg
Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2011 Location: Somehere Status: Offline Points: 1151 |
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Should the name of the threat be changed to "Boycott seamed plastic balls"? Because I've heard that practically everyone here prefers the qualities of the non-seamed.
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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I did have a very bad day that day. I hadn't played in a tournament in a long time and that kid was so obnoxious cho-ing every point. Two other high level juniors that watched my match said they were so glad I beat him cause he acted the same way when he played them.
As far as our match went I had a gall bladder attack (I had to go to the emergency room before for an attack) just a short time before our match and I shouldn't have even played. All I could do was just stand there in pain and try to play. I usually don't complain that much either but between that kid yelling every point and me being in so much pain I was having a very bad day. I don't normally worry about rating points that much but I was once again very close to achieving my goal of breaking 2200 and knew that wasn't going to happen because of my performance. I usually am very quiet during my matches and normally play much better but I did complain a lot, so I apologize for my behavior that day. I'm not gonna say anything more about these plastic balls. I've said enough. It's just very frustrating that we have been put in this position of playing with inferior balls. There are several upcoming tournaments I want to play in but every one of them are using different balls. One is using butterfly celluloid balls then the next tournament is using joola plastic then the next one is using butterfly plastic, so it's tough if you have to keep adjusting to different balls. I do hope they will improve the plastic balls so we don't have these issues. |
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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I have been rather salty in person in the one tourney I did using a seamed plastic ball complaining about the ball's bad bounce (unpredictable and inconsistent) and lost a match vs a player a little lower rated, (the match I seamed to be complaining the most about the ball) but that opponent is someone who will in the future become a way better player than I will become. I had no problem losing to that player, he is a better player than me.
It IS a raw deal to have tourneys use a ball that does not only NOT have a true bounce but busts on any random hit or bounce. We pay a lot of money and travel and endure a lot to compete in our sport at sanctioned tourneys and we should expect better, both ball and light/contrast conditions in the playing hall. I can complain, but I realize many tourneys I consider attending will use a seamed poly ball (although that number (EDIT: of Seamless balls used in tourneys is increasing...) and I should just learn how to adapt (like learn/practice how to take the ball earlier) (so the bad bounce doesn't have that degree of effect) One day i will move from here and be in a area where i can play regularly and achieve that. One day, in USA, even in cities under 100,000 population there will be a place to play above garage level, it is actually improving bit by bit slowly thanks to the work of a LOT of dedicated people working individually and collectively.
Edited by BH-Man - 03/31/2015 at 12:18am |
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Dave, we all have bad days. I have had a few times playing where I got pretty pissed off at myself, and let's just say I'm not proud.
I don't think you should be quiet about the crappy balls. I keep hearing from lots of people here, "sure, we all know the seamless balls are better, but the crappy balls are the ones they use in tournaments so we have to buy them". I say in response, that is the thing that we need to get changed as soon as possible, and if we can't manage to do that in our own local tournaments, what does that say? Tournament directors!!!!! Don't use crappy plastic balls. There is an alternative. Use good plastic balls. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Please don't keep quiet. Our reactions and complaints mean something. Pros are complaining too, but they do it not from quite the same angle as we do.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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Alright, I have to do some back-peddling now...
First, Dave - I'm sorry. Sounds like you truly had an "off day" that day, and I'll be the first to give you the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for judging you based on that one incident. I do hope you're generally a cool dude, and you get to reach your goal of 2200 (if you haven't already). Secondly, "complaining" about the new ball IS obviously a part of the process, and I apologize for conveniently lumping it in with all the other typical complaining that goes on as it relates to individuals performance (or lack thereof). Seems like I'm the one having an "off day" today, so I should probably just move away from the keyboard.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Pondus and Dave are adult and sensible forum members of long standing. It is good you are both here.
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Crowsfeather
Super Member Joined: 08/03/2013 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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The seemless ball was great, both Xushaofa and palio.
Xushaofa is more superior. Seemless ball gave a weird PING sound like a broken celluloid, but durability and bounce is just great not a 100 percent celluloid but come very close !!! 95 percent celluloid like despite the size and weight.
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I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Good luck with that. I know taking the ball early can be done, but compared to my old style, I have become a distance looper. OK, so I don't back up, but now, the ball bounces too low for me to take it extremely early like I used to. The change might have been a good thing for my game overall, but it's still annoying to have lost 2 years worth of stroke experience. When I play with the seamless ball now, it seems like I am opportunistically smashing everything because the ball actually bounces!
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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FWIW, I think Pondus is attempting to hold us all to account for what we say and how we say it. The suggestion of boycotting plastic balls is silly for a number of reasons already pointed out, but Pondus quite rightly questions the validity of many of the complaints that populate the numerous plastic ball threads on the forum. How is it that we are full of complaints when it appears that, for the top players in the world, it's business as usual? For me, this question sits firmly alongside the series of videos put together by PathfinderPro of Preston TTA, where feedback about the playing characteristics of the plastic balls was inconsistent: some said the balls were lighter, some said heavier; some said the bounce was higher, some lower. However, the blind testing of the balls was quite unambiguous: no one even noticed that the ball had been changed. My own experiences with the plastic ball are in line with the Preston experiment. If I say nothing to my opponent but simply produce a plastic ball and begin playing, no one says a word. No one can tell that the ball is not celluloid. If I do tell my opponent then I'm likely to get comments about all the weirdness of the plastic ball - it's heavier/lighter and higher/lower - but after five minutes those issues are simply forgotten. No one ever thinks to blame the ball for losing a point in the fifth game of any match, because it plays so similarly to what they are used to (mainly Butterfly 3* celluloid) that they've forgotten that they're using something different. Pondus's question is a good one: "How come all of these low-level players on a forum have such a hard time with this new ball?" This is not the same question as, "Why do we have to put up with balls that break so easily?" Our friend AgentHEX has raised questions about the durability of the seamed balls, but the overwhelming evidence is that they break much too quickly. And this is a genuine issue for low level players like us simply because we have to pay for the damned things, while the high level players don't pay a penny for balls that break in the warm up.
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