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Topspin against backspin. |
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baribari
Super Member Joined: 12/06/2014 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Posted: 04/08/2015 at 1:45am |
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I would like any tips people have for countering backspin (especially heavy chops) with topspin.
Most of the time the ball goes into the net. I have tried starting lower and finishing higher (sometimes with my stroke being almost vertical), but I have a hard time putting it in consistently with good pace. Usually I will just push it back using the spin. I have the same problem with short backspin serves. I don't have any problem getting them back, but I have a hard time keeping topspin returns out of the net. So I stick to pushing. Thanks! I have max-thickness Yasaka Rakza 7 on both sides, for the record.
Edited by baribari - 04/08/2015 at 1:46am |
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Claudiu84
Super Member Joined: 10/30/2012 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 155 |
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The swing shoulnt be almoast vertical, you must hit the ball trough the sponge. If y'are useing only the incoming speed of the ball, you will not be able to lift up the ball. You must aply your own pace, speed and power. The stroke must start lower and finish higher, with forward motion, hitting trough the sponge. Sorry for my English, I hope you understood.
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jrscatman
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It's just like looping a topspin. But it's easier since you don't have supply the topspin - ball already has the spin. So you just need to hit it low to high - just open your racquet, since ball already has the underspin, open racquet and use the same topspin loop technique and it should clear the net safely.
I also like to hit the chops at the top of the bounce.
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Butterfly MPS
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IneptVirtuoso
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Almost any heavy backspin ball coming off the table should be looped using a long and often quick stroke. The angle of the stroke (vertical, horizontal) should be dependent on the speed of your arm stroke and viceversa. The faster your stroke, the less vertical your paddle should be.
Here's is a step by step explanation of how you should hit those balls: First, you're in a neutral position with your hand and paddle in front of you. Knees bent and in an attacking position. Your knees should be bent and you should be low and slightly leaning forward to create a spring-like effect from your body to add power to your shot. As the ball with heavy under-spin is approaching you, you will drop your arm about knee high to create some momentum for your upcoming topspin stroke (remember to be low with knees bent and slightly leaning forward). When you're ready to bring your paddle from next to your knee, you will simultaneously bring your knees and body up along with your paddle and arm with the wrist almost totally relaxed. Also, remember to hit the ball at the highest point of its trajectory or slightly before it. When an under-spin ball is hit beyond its highest point, it's very likely that it will end up in the net as it becomes more difficult to pick up. And lastly, just hope for the ball to land :) Keep in mind these things: 1. Knees bent, 2. Slightly leaning forward, 3. Relaxed wrist, 4. Whip motion (drop hand then bring it up), 5. contact ball at highest point, 6. and most important, ALWAYS LOOK AT THE BALL! I hope I was of some help. If someone wants to correct some of my advice, please do so, we're all here to learn.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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I won't tell you how to loop backspin - there are too many videos for that and a stroke is a stroke. But I will provide some tips/food for thought. 2. Penholders usually have absolutely no problem doing looping backspin/chop because they whip their wrists with max acceleration/speed at point of contact. So have a loose wrist, no matter your grip. 3. When approaching heavy spin, it is often helpful to avoid the main spin axis to make the ball easier to attack/return. 4. Opening the racket angle is necessary to counter the effects of really heavy backspin. The #1 reason why most people fail to loop heavy backspin is a refusal to open the paddle to sufficiently counter the backspin. Opening the racket doesn't mean going over 90 degrees - usually, 90 or maybe a 100 degrees is enough for even the heaviest backspin if you use sufficient racket head spin. It does mean that you have to use a far more more open motion than you use vs. topspin. 5. That said, because of the risk of overhitting because you overestimate the spin, only drive high backspin balls and slow spin/lightly brush low ones with plenty of margin until you have practiced your looping stroke well enough to know its limits and you can read the ball perfectly. 6. If the ball is high with backspin, you still need to open your racket and start beneath the ball but aim to finish higher on the ball. No matter the height of the ball - avoid lifting without a forward motion of some sort, even if only to the side after you make contact with the ball. 7. Time the ball so that your loop stays in the same plane if the backspin is too heavy to drive. (thanks to bes for his post for reminding me of this one). THerefore, don't hit forward and cover the ball - keep your racket angle the same and don't hit into the ball. Backspin is not topspin - it can often slow down and stay high, or it can skid quickly through the table - in either case, timing the ball so that your acceleration meets the back of the ball at the right time is crucial. 8. Backspin is easier to loop if you shift your feet to slight favor your looping motion. For a forehand, left foot should be in front of right for a right-handed player. It's even more critical to get this alignment with your stroke when driving the ball. There are lots of videos on looping backspin out there so the rest is practice. But the biggest tip is getting really good racket head acceleration. If you can do it with your arm, great, but most people use a whip motion supported by core and knee action. The reason why it takes so many people time to loop backspin and why their level jumps up when they do it properly is that it is the greatest test of generating consistently good racket head speed with good technique that commonly shows up in a match. It's actually not hard and there are tricks that one can use in the short term to make the process easier (learning to wrist loop backspin, which many try to do but don't get right because they miss the tick in the wrist whip and are forced to muscle the ball). But if you focus on generating racket head speed and brushing, the level of opponent and how much backspin he can create with a motion you cannot read becomes the issue, and not the backspin itself. Xu Xin has the best loop vs. backspin in the world. Watch his loop. Edited by NextLevel - 04/08/2015 at 11:53am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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Yeah not much I can add past what Next Level said. That's great.
I'll just say this on my own personal account. I have moments where I judge the backspin ball and determine if I need to execute what I call my "soft loop" or "power loop" and it's largely based on if I consider the shot to be low percentage or not. Soft Loop: If the ball is low my soft loop is a high arching ball that clears the net easily and loaded with spin. The goal for me here is not to hit a fast ball. It's it hit a high arching, spinny ball that easily clears the net every time setting up for the next ball. Sometimes with players who might now expect this might hit the next ball off the table because the amount of topspin. If playing a modern defender, I have no worries about soft looping until I get a high ball. They're most likely going to keep chopping anyways. What you have to watch out for is an aggressive player who might think to attack that high arching ball vs say just blocking it or chopping again. Power Loop: If the ball is higher up and easier to attack, then that's why i'll go for a more powerful loop that is a little flatter & faster trying to end the point. It's a tough skill to learn but if you have someone at your club who is good at chopping, have a practice session with them where they simply stand back and chop while you try to get consistent, soft loops in back to them. Your feel for it will grow considerably and once you have that, you'll feel more confident going for stronger, more powerful shots.
Edited by suds79 - 04/08/2015 at 9:13am |
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bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
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You have some good tips above, but I'll add one "Big Picture" thought for you and describe one very common problem.
To lift backspin over the net effectively, your blade speed up the back of the ball needs to exceed the speed of the surface of the ball. This stroke - whether going for mostly power, mostly spin, or a mixture need pretty serious blade speed. This explains why some players - with REALLY fast strokes - can loop pretty heavy chop with impressively closed blades and low stroke angles. Most of my students initially struggle with this shot due more to timing than blade speed or even technique. (Note that "really good topspins" will be much easier to execute, stronger, and more consistent with better technique.) What commonly happens is that they start their stroke a bit (or a lot) early, then, when it becomes apparent that the ball isn't in the hitting zone (yet), they do one or both of the following:
Obviously, deceleration is a killer. If the blade slows to "less than ball surface speed", they either have to REALLY open their blade angle or dump the ball in the net. Making significant blade angle adjustments mid-stoke is not a great answer. Even when they pull it off, the resulting shot is generally really weak and relatively dead. Changing the stroke plane is also a killer. Stroke plane change clarification: A player intends to topspin with, for example, a 45 degree stroke plane - and they have adjusted their blade angle for this stroke. Unfortunately, they start their stroke early, hence the ball is too far forward and they won't be able to even touch it with a 45 degree angle. Their solution is to change their stroke plane angle to something like 30 degrees to make contact with the ball. Sadly, their blade angle is now almost always too closed and the ball rarely clears the net. One reason why "early" is a common mistake is due to the "checking up" effect of backspin balls. Balls with topspin bounce forward (and usually fairly low), dead or low spin balls leave the table a bit higher and slower, and backspin balls lose speed and bounce more "up" than forward. If this slowing down tendency isn't accounted for, players will tend to be early pretty regularly. Oh, and it appears that the 40+ balls exacerbate this a bit. They seem to check up more than the celluloid ones did. Also, new balls check up much more than "shiny" ones. Good luck! bes |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Contact...
Further away from the handle... Catching the ball higher up the rubber produces efficient loops... If you catch the ball at the bottom of the rubber, the minimal contact will hinder your loops... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Ive found that many people with this problem actually struggles more to read the amount of spin then they struggle with actually liftning it.
If it is in fact a problem with liftning heavy backspin, have a friend chop/push hard to you and loop with a very open blade. Dont bother with keeping the ball low, simply make sure to loop so you clear the net safely. Once you feel confident at doing this, then its time to correct the angle of your blade and try to loop with more forward momentum. This is much easier once you know you have the ability to lift it back. |
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V-Griper
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The only thing I would add is to wait for the ball to start dropping and then swing up into the descending ball. Basically wait until the mid or late descending phase of the ball trajectory after top of bounce. This will give you more time to adjust your position and swing, as well as allow more time for the spin to dissipate. Once you get your consistency up you can contact the ball closer to top of bounce and drive the ball harder.
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DHS 301
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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This is really important - added my own version of it to the list - thanks.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Sound...
If you hear the "Thock" of your blade, you are hitting not brushing the ball.. "Thock" - Results in more of a driving motion, which can be done but produces a flatter faster ball... The almost silent sound of sponge brush contact is beautiful to behold... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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The part about matching the tangential speed of the ball is what I have been saying for years. What I don't agree with is the
I find reaching forward means my paddle is going more forward than up and the ball goes into the net. Sometimes the loop must get close to the table to hit the ball rather than waiting for the ball to come to the looper. As pointed out above the ball sometimes doesn't bounce forward as fast. One must move forward and swing up rather than reach forward and hit the ball into the net. When I get tired this is my biggest problem. I have posted this a few times before. It is in my favorites.
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bes
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You are disagreeing with something that was never said. Your chosen quote takes my original statement completely out of context. I never said or implied that reaching forwards was a good, ok, or correct thing to do... My post stated the opposite. bes
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Clarence247
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The tips laid out were very useful and when combined with watching appropriate videos and doing some drills should help acquire the technique needed. However I think the above quoted sentence is a mistake - probably a typo or angle miscalculation - you cannot open the racquet at 100 degrees to do a loop.... at 100 degrees it would be a push.... 90 degrees you cannot loop either... as the bat would be totally vertical. the motion to loop vs underspin is up and forward... slightly more up than forward compared to looping vs a no spin, top spin or side spin ball... Nevertheless for a good loop the racquet face should never be more open than 75 degrees at the very most... and the motion should still be roughly a 45-50 degree stroke but the face of the bat needs to be at about 75 degrees vs heavy backspin... opening the face of the bat more will not allow good contact and result in you just "lifting the ball over" not looping it. |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
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NextLevel
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It's really not worth debating. I'll just say I meant what I wrote and if it's wrong, I'll accept the error until I am forced to demonstrate it in a video and can't do it. If you get a copy of Danny Seemiller's TT book, you will see this paddle angle provided for looping heavy backspin. There are many techniques for looping heavy backspin, and this angle is key for some of them. It may just be terminology, but we play TT so I am not concerned with the words as much as the strokes. Edited by NextLevel - 04/09/2015 at 6:12pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Clarence247
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90 degree is a right angle = completely vertical (unless we understand 90 degree to be something different) - to my knowledge one cannot loop with that angle - it would be a flat hit /drive if the arm is going forward and moving up and forward you would be just lifting the ball not looping it... the ball would probably just go down anyway...
It may not be worth debating because as you said this may just be a terminology mix up, but the intention of your post was certainly to be informative and therefore, it seems to me that it is worth clarifying... 1) If the bat is at 90 degree completely vertical - one cannot create New spin vs the opponent's spin 2) if the bat were at 100 degree (actually tilted backwards) you would be pushing, or if you are flicking the wrist, you would be flicking at best... I have never seen a video in which a pro was looping with his bat at 90 degree or tilted backwards beyond the 90 degree point... if you have an example it may prove very enlightening. |
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jrscatman
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I agree with NextLevel opening the racquet makes it easy to loop underspin shots. Best thing to do is to try and it and see if it works. It works for me.
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Butterfly MPS
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NextLevel
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Jrscatman,
Clarence247 is debating how open the racket can be. Clarence247, I have read your concerns. All I can say is that it is not worth my time right now to address then in detail. Pros have extremely fast racket head speed but some of them will with short pips, for example, will roll the ball with angles greater than 90 degrees. Others players who are not necessarily pros can use open racket angled like 90 degrees or more to counter the backspin before driving through it. Finally, some may do a vertical stroke time to brush the ball or even push it forward with a 100 degree angle. All these shots are topspin shots. Whether they are technically loops is a terminology issue (some are maybe "dummy loops") but none of them are pushes as I understand the term because they are all supposed to impart topspin and they are all supposed to continue the spin on the ball. As jrscatman said, you can get a chopper and try it. Sometimes it is really about where your first contact with the ball is made. At other times, it can be a purely vertical stroke that uses the incoming pace and spin of the ball to just add spin to get it over the net. It all depends on your looping technique. Edited by NextLevel - 04/10/2015 at 8:01am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wturber
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When I first started playing hardbat, one of the first things I worked hard on was attacking underspin ... either pushes or chops. In my mind, I thought about keeping the racket face very open - even having it tilt backwards beyond 90 degrees. More specifically, I was thinking about contacting the ball below its middle so as to lift the ball. That's what was in my mind when I was teaching myself how to topspin back underspin and what I thought I was actually doing. But when I went to the trouble to record my stroke on video, I found that I never even opened the racket face as much as vertical. And that's with hardbat which requires a much more vertical and open stroke than inverted. I'd be surprised if anything resembling a loop is produced with inverted using racket faced angles even approaching 90 degrees. You certainly can topspin balls back with a 90 degree or greater racket face angle, but such shot will almost surely produce a relatively slow paced ball and wouldn't be considered a loop by most. In short, I think the racket angle may be much more vertical in our minds when we contact the ball than it is in fact. That certainly the case with me and hardbat. |
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Jay Turberville
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pnachtwey
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Opening the paddle past 90 degrees to return a chopped ball is not looping. The ball will go back with less spin than it had coming in. What wturber said is looping. OK so a hard bat can't loop a ball by itself but it certainly can when there is already a lot of back spin on the ball that now becomes the hard bat players top spin.
Sure you can. The paddle must simply have a tangential speed faster than the balls angular velocity. The problem is that the same tangential force that creates extra spin may also make the ball go to high or long. |
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smackman
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just noticing that good players don't let the ball drop that much , they go up/forward to the ball
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mts388
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If you're standing 10 feet from a 20 foot wall and I asked you to throw the brick over the wall, you would bend your back knee, lower your arm and throw the brick over the wall. Use the same motion to loop a heavy backspin ball
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NextLevel
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Hardbat doesn't react as much to spin so the stroke is hardly the same though I agree in principle with your position on racket angles. There is also the question of how heavy the chop you were lifting was. But my point is simple - whether it is called a "loop" or not, it is possible to topspin a heavy chop with an angle greater than 90 degrees. Racket angles can compensate for the (in)ability to generate sufficient racket head speed.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/10/2015 at 7:58am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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bbkon
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juanito
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Hopper
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Happened to excersize topspin loop on backspin last night with Robopong 2050 robot (= heavy backspin). Also happened to do earlier mentioned alternatives:case 1. Return with 90 degrees angle with contact point at back of ball (3 o'clock)
case 2. Return with 60-75 degrees angle with contact point a little higher on ball (2 o'clock) For both cases it is important to swing from low to heigh and have enough racket head speed. For case 1 , it appears to me. it is even more important to have a fully relaxed wrist and body (legs/waist combination). As soon as their is some tension in the body, the backspin grips on the bat and the ball goes down in the net. The moment I relax the body, the effort to bring the ball over the net goes down thus the return becomes much easier. The return for case 1 is a "slow" high return (upto 1 feet above the net) that lands deep on the oppnent's half of the table. The return for case 2 is a faster and lower return (1 -3 inch above the net) that lands halfway the opponent's half of the table.
Edited by Hopper - 04/10/2015 at 5:03am |
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viktorovich
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? 90 degrees relative to the table or the trajectory of the ball (for example ball is already below the table) ?
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Hopper
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90 degrees to table/floor surface. Optimum timing of contact to be slightly after top of curve (descending ball) but it is possible to return with same technique if ball is below table surface. you just have to bend those knees a little more......
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baribari
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Today I had little trouble hitting typical backspin shots by just aiming up a bit, but against a chopper I had no such luck. If anything I had more success by simply hitting them flat but fast, but only about 1 in 10 avoided hitting the net.
Trying to aim high made them sail long, starting low and finishing high just put them in the net.
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dajdosta
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Excuse me how can you be sure it is 90 degrees? Did you filmed it and analyzed?
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