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Make your forehand loop even more powerful! |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Tassie52,
I think everything you have presented shows evidence of precisely what you think is absent but that OP has not defended himself well. Yes, Brett would say that it comes from being relaxed. That said, contact and timing is a delicate thing and whether you emphasise brushing as Timo Boll does or wrapping as Mizutani does is in part about contact. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Lau_hb
Member Joined: 11/25/2011 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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I do agree WLQ is definitely one of the players that shows flexion/extension the least and that it is in general difficult to see in a lot of pro players shots. But even if it is not easy to see, I still believe it is present, at least to some extent, in most pros strokes . That is obviously not easily demonstrable without knowing someone's personal opinion on the matter because it is such a subtle movement.
Also, for those players who do show this motion in their stroke, like Brett for example, I think it is a very personal matter if they do it consciously or if it simply comes from being very relaxed. You can guess it's the latter with Brett because of the generally extremely relaxed play style he has, but not everybody can be as relaxed as him when playing and as a result might have to consciously do this motion.
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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What happens at the end of WLQ backswing is
perfection of course. You can't have one of the greatest forehands of all time
and not be timing the backswing and stroke correctly with the perfect relationship
between wrist and forearm. Ma Lin’s forehand is even better imo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z6AyEm8G0s . I have played against both of these players and Ma Lin's forehand seemed to hurt a lot more than WLQ's.
Now watch William Henzell's backhand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgvxkRaSZQk at 1M:40S and try to see exactly the same relationship between wrist and forearm. I grant you that it's much harder to recognize the relationship between wrist and forearm on the forehand, but it's there. On the backhand, the wrist is able to bend around more and it's obvious. Same as serves. This is why I used the backhand for the tick-whip video and not the forehand, although I've somewhat covered this topic now for the forehand on our site. I personally can see WLQ's and Ma Lin's wrists acting as loose hinges with the forearm momentum snapping the wrist back and forward, however I know that others can't. I was working with a learning coach and asked him to watch a series of young players live and tell me if it was happening on the forehand. He just couldn't see it. I then asked him to watch the same players serve and he could see who was using their wrist and forearm correctly. The best way I can explain it is the bat looks a little out of control at the end of the backswing after the arm straightens. It may even look like it wobbled slightly. With some players (as with Ma Lin) you may be able to catch a frame where the wrist is snapped all the way back. Once the forearm starts to move forward, enormous speed will be generated. Edited by Brett Clarke - 05/23/2015 at 7:08pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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I think it is a lot easier to think about playing like the teddy bear than thinking "now move my wrist 37 degrees, and elbow 11 degrees" or whatever it's supposed to be. The former keeps you relaxed. The latter can never work if it's not natural, since as soon as you are under pressure you will revert to what is natural. People underestimate how hard it is to make a change in the way you hit the ball become natural. If you are going to do it, you need mental short cuts, like the bear analogy, which is why I think that particular one is quite brilliant.
From zen monk Takuan Soho's "Unfettered Mind", a treatise he wrote for the samurai swordsman Musahashi: I answered, "If you put it [your mind] in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye, and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning. "No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will lack its functioning." "Well, then, where does one put his mind." I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend throughout its entirety" This is not an easy thing to achieve, of course. But it has to be the goal. |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Baal,
Check your messages. I just sent you Zen in the Art of Archery. Cheers, Brett
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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Got it. Fantastic. Many thanks!
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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http://faculty2.ric.edu/rfeldstein/560spring11/1.a.taoteching.pdf
A good athlete can enter a state of body-awareness in which the right stroke or the right movement happens by itself, effortlessly, without any interference of the conscious will. This is a paradigm for non-action, the purest and most effective form of action. The game plays the game, the poem writes the poem, we can't tell the dancer from the dance. Less and less do you need to force things, until finally you arrive at non-action. When nothing is done, Nothing is left undone. (Lao Tzu, translation by Stephen Mitchell) Nothing is "done" (my quotes) because the doer has wholeheartedly vanished into the deed, the fuel has been completely transformed into flame. This "nothing" is, in fact, everything. It happens when we trust the intelligence of the universe in the same way that an athlete or a dancer trusts the superior intelligence of the body. Hence Lao-Tzu's emphasis on softness. Softness means the opposite of rigidity, and is synonymous with suppleness, adaptability, endurance. Anyone who has seen a t'ai chi or aikido master doing not-doing will know how powerful this softness is. (excerpted from the forward to Stephen Mitchell's translation of Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching (Wade-Giles Romanization). I don't know whether or not the universe is intelligent. I don't even know whether or not the intelligence of the body, whatever that might mean, is superior to the intelligence of the mind. I do think, however, that Lao Tzu, 2500+ years ago was on to something, but something ultimately inexplicable in words. There is no English equivalent for the word tao. Way, method, the inexplicable path of the universe, these all seem inadequate to describe, if it can be described rather than intuited, what Lao was getting at. Dao ywe feh dao yeh!(Yale romanization) If you can talk about a dao, that definitely ain't the dao I'm alluding to. (first five words of the Tao Te Ching) John Tannehill, a student of Zen, Taoism, and Chinese astrology, has that wonderful softness when he plays. At his best a powerful softness indeed. Edited by berndt_mann - 05/23/2015 at 11:46pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Another guy's technique to compare to the above is Grubba when using the 38mm ball. His technique was similar but different more spinny. |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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For what it's worth, here's my wrist position from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q1BmuQEGp0 where I'm hitting the ball close to my maximum
Cheers, Brett |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Many of the angles under discussion here will depend on the build/proportions of the particular player. I am not sure how strictly these should be imitated by us when attempting the best technique.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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JacekGM,
What is your claim and its justification? |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1533 |
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I feel better after seeing Brett's FH wrist and racket position, resembles mine. I always felt my racket angle was too closed. |
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2332 |
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Great action shot
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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Spin83
Member Joined: 01/28/2013 Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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It's a bad move..i dont want to be judgemental but there is a problem with starting point of that move (not to mention index finger position) which ends up in decapitation of maximum spin and power you can produce.
Edited by Spin83 - 05/25/2015 at 10:25am |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Spin83, Do you have any pictures or video of your forehand loop to share? The videos all involve players (except myself) that have some of the most powerful forehands I know. It helps to be able to see yours. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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These are not starting points. They are stills from what happens at the end of the backswing. The starting point is nowhere near the end of the backswing.
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Next Level, My claim is that everyone is different and hence perhaps we should not attempt to exactly copy the "best" angles for a shot. There might be a best suggested range, broad rather than very narrow. One can take this also as a justification, if necessary, although I do not claim any level of authority.
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Heavyspin, I may be wrong about this, but the more and more I thought about it, I think that letting the stroke trajectory determine the racket angle while mentally keeping it closed on all shots was what made the loop work.
Edited by NextLevel - 05/25/2015 at 12:34pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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At the end of both of their backswings, I notice that the tip of both Brett and heavyspin's paddles face at the back wall, rather than down at the floor. Do any of the top players in the world finish their backswings in this position? Are there any disadvantages to finishing like this?
For what it's worth, I've looked at my own stroke and the end of my backswing often looks like Brett and heavys, with the tip of the racket facing straight backwards rather than down at the floor. Recently I've been trying to change it and finish with the racket tip facing down at the floor (45 degree angle) like WLQ, but I haven't really had much of a justification as to why.
Edited by Ringer84 - 05/25/2015 at 1:00pm |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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JacekGM, Read what Brett said - it's not about copying angles, but about relaxing the wrist so that when you do your backswing, it whips in a way that gives you good momentum on the forward part of the stroke. It should happen on virtually all your strokes - your hand/arm should not be so tense that you don't have some whip built into your stroke. No one is or should be looking at the racket angles - what you should be looking at is how much the wrist deviates from the angle of the forearm because of the whip back effect on the backswing. That effect is in all the videos and the pictures are just displaying the result of this effect. Letting the wrist be loose on my strokes started immediately after I started practicing serves heavily. Everyone accepts it on the backhand these days, but people who don't understand how the wrist works think that there is something wrong with doing it on the forehand. But it's never about forcing the wrist. It's about relaxing the wrist so that it works for you (and for optimal racket head speed, it has to work for you).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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It's not where the paddle faces that matters per se. Everyone's wrist has a different degree of flexibility so it will end up in a different place. Also, the backswing often depends on what kind of ball you are playing against (slow or fast, topspin or backspin or sidespin etc.), so you might have a different default position depending on whether you are playing against a specific kind of ball. But it is the whip effect that matters - the specific degree of the whip is individual. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Thanks for the explanation. However, I've always thought that I have very flexible wrists, but yet I cannot reach heavyspin's finishing position without consciously breaking my wrist back. My wrist does not seem to be able to reach that position just through relaxation alone. It's probably just because I haven't mastered the tip whip concept yet, even on the backhand... as you've seen in my videos. |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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adishorul
Super Member Joined: 08/19/2012 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 368 |
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++1 |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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No, it's not about mastering it. Just relax and whip your wrist back and forth as fast as possible and don't force it. Forehands have a relatively large backswing, so the snapping at the end can be pretty interesting when it is unconsciously done. Your wrist will snap back and how flat it looks on the take back also depends on how turned over the joint is at the shoulder and how bent towards the floor forward your back is, so that is not a key part of the stroke (can cause injury like all things if forced). This is not a competition for the most whippy wrist. It's just an illustration of relaxed technique. If you look at my stroke, my takeback doesn't face the floor often (though I do tend to stand straight).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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A mental trick* that worked well for me when I was worrying about this issue** was not to concentrate on relaxing the wrist or, worse, where to put it. What worked for me was thinking about relaxing my entire forearm. If you do that, the wrist will automatically go in the best position for you without it getting too floppy. It may not be exactly the same place for every person as NL says.
* I think it is always best and most zen-like to find the minimal mental process that accomplishes some desirable mechanical change in your game because if you have to think much about mechanics you are in trouble. **It's a great topic because at some point everyone messes around a bit with this aspect of their stroke. As with with grip and ready position, it seems like one of the eternal questions in our sport. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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I sometimes relax my whole arm when looping (a la the notorious teddy bear) and imagine that my arm has no joints. Which was why someone surprised me by saying that it was largely elbow. I do sometimes use the elbow analogy to control and restrict my backswing and finish, and pretend that I have no wrist, so yes, I agree on just relaxing the whole forearm and if that is not enough, relaxing the whole arm. That said, the one thing that people have to be willing to do with such a relaxed stroke IS MISS THE SHOT when using it/learning. Over time, the body will adjust, but someone people try the relaxed stroke, miss two shots, then go back to what hit the ball on the table with their highly flawed stroke. That's never going to give you a better stroke.
Edited by NextLevel - 05/25/2015 at 2:24pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I think I do relax my arm and wrist really well when I smash a lob. Other strokes - to a varying degree.... Yes, I will remember to include this info in my training. Good stuff!
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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i agree with NextLevel in all of his posts above.
It's not about whether or not your wrist hyper-extends or what angle it reaches at the end of the backswing. It's about the relationship between wrist and forearm as NL explained. The same relationship exists between body and the entire arm. As the ball is coming, you turn your waist and the arm snaps back into place. Then, without pausing, you rotate forward and the arm whips forward. I know many of you have seen it, but watch the bear anyway as he explains the relationship between body and arm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR_ll18VZg8 As the bear has no muscles, it's his shoulder that is acting as a loose hinge this time. In the conversation about wrist and forearm, it's the wrist acting as a loose hinge. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Ai-ya! That is one nasty backswing, Larry. I pity the poor schnook on the receiving end of this soon to come full throttle Jurassic Park beast mode ultraloop.
I'm wondering why the Chinese National Team doesn't adopt your dietary regimen. Yeah, they're quick, fleet of foot, and have exemplary looping form off both sides and all that, but compared to you, they look just a tad anorexic to me. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Back in the 1970s, Lee Dal Joon, a former top 15 player in the world and sux time U.S. Open Champion, taught a forehand loop drive whose backswing, follow through, and recovery resembled a right triangle.
To loop against topspin, you took the racket straight back about a foot behind and to the side of your right side (for a righty), then, using your left hand to "sight" (can't think of a better word) the oncoming ball, using your legs, waist, hips, forearm, and elbow, bending the elbow at contact to impart spin while using the body shift to impart power, finishing the fh loop at about forehead height above the right eye. To recover you brought the racket straight downward. The stroke from beginning to end resembled the tracing of a right triangle. I remember that at the end of the backswing, the racket was at a roughly 45 degree angle to the floor, palm facing down. I'm pretty sure that D.-J., a penholder, used and taught using a bit of wrist just prior to contact but never going beyond a straight line (imaginary) through wrist and forearm at the point of contact. Forehand looping against underspin was not too much different except that you took your racket straight back and down to about knee height, again about a foot behind and to the side of you, contacted the ball a bit after the top of the bounce, and ended your follow through above your head and above your right eye. Then you brought your racket straight down to a recovery position. D-J. was also a third or fourth degree black belt in karate. At 5 feet 1 inch tall, he could easily take out a 6 footer with a flying dropkick. Today's game is pretty much topspin vs. topspin. If you stroke a fh sidespin loop crosscourt, you can be pretty sure that you will receive the same kind of loop in return, if your opponent is capable of executing it. So you can skip the recovery to a ready position and simply bring your racket down from the end of the follow through to the end of the backswing. Edited by berndt_mann - 05/25/2015 at 5:30pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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