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Critique form - FH loop |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Posted: 07/03/2015 at 6:48pm |
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Hi,
First official post on this forum. I hope to contribute wherever I can. I play table tennis for about 20 yrs now (29 yrs old). There are two big problems in my game: serve (of which I will post a movie later on, attempting the reverse pendulum serve) and FH loop of which I hope to receive some input. I won't tell any things I noticed myself just yet except for one thing: I never had the feeling I knew how to shift my bodyweight from right to left leg. Other comments are more than welcome off course. Topspin balls are feeded by a robot, half table. Thanks in advance! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfl_T7tSD8M
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boliao
Member Joined: 09/02/2014 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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Hello and welcome.
For serving, Brett Clarke's video on reverse pendulum backspin serve provides useful hints. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic Check out his other videos as well. I will leave finer pointers for your FH loop to the many helpful and higher level players here. |
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wilkinru
Silver Member Joined: 04/28/2015 Location: Las Vegas Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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Brett Clarke's videos are so amazing. He's transforming my game slowly.
With that said, you need to extend your arm at some point during the shot. You currently leave it at 90 degrees throughout the shot. Also you need to relax your wrist a little to get some whip. Lastly you need to get your finish position a little closer to the middle, as you go a little too far. The bouncing also does you no good. Power comes from shoulder rotation and the core, not jumping. I know it costs money, but ttedge.com has wonderful videos that will show you how to correct your swing. He goes over the issues you have in detail even. For the record I'm just a member there and have nothing to gain. Edited by wilkinru - 07/03/2015 at 9:09pm |
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heavyspin
Gold Member Joined: 08/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1534 |
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I could be wrong after a brief watch, but it looks like your upper and lower body rotate about the same amount. Having more shoulder rotation than lower body would be more correct.
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My serves are like potato skins at TGI Fridays - they're loaded.
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Why do you think this is more correct? Just due to the added tension it creates to be used as potential energy? |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Thank you for this detailed information! |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Ringer84: Could you elaborate on this? Isn't it sufficient to rotate the body so the elbow is still visible to the opposing player? That's what our regional coaches preach when training young ones.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14847 |
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The technique of OP is more similar to that used by Samson Dubina but you can see that some of the details that heavyspin and wilkinru point out are reducing the quality:
Edited by NextLevel - 07/04/2015 at 12:02pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wilkinru
Silver Member Joined: 04/28/2015 Location: Las Vegas Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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I think extending your arm will fix the late shot time too.
In fact your doing what I was doing: waiting for the ball to come to your paddle and then executing the stroke. Need to meet the ball with the paddle (from the extended arm) and then follow through. Just focus on the start position and the finish position for a few sessions. No footwork until that's better. |
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Tk5
Super Member Joined: 06/06/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 164 |
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There's a lot of things that need to be improved with your fh. I would take things step by step to not overwhelm you. Start with the biggest problem first. To me it is that you are not spinning the ball much at all. It's a very flat shot. To create more spin try focusing on loosening your wrist and with your wrist creating a higher trajectory on the ball.
Also, you are hitting every shot cross-court. Good players aren't those who hit the hardest but those who are able to place their shots the best. When doing these robot drills work on placement to all parts of the table. Once you are getting better rotation on the ball I would work on incorporating some of the other improvements the forum members are suggesting. Good luck!
Edited by Tk5 - 07/04/2015 at 4:02pm |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Set the robot to feed slower and fixed placement. It is overwhelming you. You never get the time to experience the transfer which is what you're working on, right?
Edited by zeio - 07/04/2015 at 5:45pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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To be honest I wasn't really working on fixing the transfer. I wanted to make a video which showed most of my flaws in this strike.
I'm happy that worked out fine! I would like to thank all of you for the insightful comments and suggestions! I will practice extending my arm before contact and post a new video when I think I grasped the concept. One step at a time I suppose. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Well, no problem. Another item on the to-do list.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Clarence247
Silver Member Joined: 02/11/2014 Location: Malta Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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No, the whole body does not rotate equally... the upper body rotates more - in fact there is waist movement - you then snap back and this added waist movement heavily increases spin, control and allows more power with less force generated by the arm... so you can stay relaxed more... yes the lower body rotates too, but less than the upper body.... that is why there is hip rotation and waist movement |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but the idea that upper body rotation (shoulder rotation) should exceed lower body rotation (hip rotation) is something that's debatable and not always clear. They were discussing the exact same thing in this golf thread here. I think there's alot of advantages in making a full turn with the hips over the extra bit of torque created by over-rotating the shoulders, so I'm going to keep doing it that way... |
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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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TThamme, your forhand style is not too bad, more like a drive, maybe only practice spin from a fixed place first as your drill looked like a footwork drill and adding in the forehand 2nd
So you are 29 years old, how do you go in competitions? can you add more loop? or do you more loop in game situation? what level are you in a leauge? |
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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The main issue that I see with regard to spin production is that your grip, FH biased, in combination with a very shallow/flat back swing means that there is minimal vertical velocity to impart spin to the ball. Basically that is little more than a counter hit with a bigger back swing. The FH bias on your grip means the the paddle face is very open relative to the incoming ball.
The main solution is to lower the paddle on the take back such that the paddle starts from a much lower point relative to the point of ball contact. Your grip is more similar to Timo Boll's grip so it should look more similar to his stroke mechanic in general. In the vid the main take away is where his paddle is at the end of the take back. Note that his paddle take back goes to a position beside and just behind his knee even while blocking topspin. For the under spin loop it goes even lower. This is all assuming the goal is more spin. Do you have a particular quality to the ball that you are trying to achieve?
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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My results are shown in the link below: http://competitie.vttl.be/index.php?season=15&result=1&sel=4929 I transferred to my old club trying to get promotion to a higher league. That worked out after two years and now I'll be playing the same level I did for about 10 years (not including season 2012-2013). In Belgium you have a "super" division followed by first and second league nationwide. I played second league for 10 years and first league for 1 year. I can impart more spin on the ball, but only when there is sufficient time for a shot (say after a push). When things go faster I tend to neglect spin (unintentionally) and play a faster, flatter stroke. This I would like to adress since I feel there is insufficient acceleration or spin. The stroke feels more like a reaction to what the opponent is doing rather than a stroke giving pressure to my opponent.
Edited by TTHamme - 07/05/2015 at 9:22am |
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TTHamme
Beginner Joined: 07/03/2015 Location: Hamme Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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What I would like to achieve is more spin under pressure. If someone plays fast I have a lot of difficulties producing a spinny loop. When there is more time to prepare for the shot (e.g. when opp pushes long or serve drifts long) it's easier. |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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I can't see anything in particular wrong with your technique, for an amateur player its pretty solid. Its easy to keep good shape when being fed by a robot though, Maybe in competition, when under pressure, the flaws show, but that will be down to other aspects of your game.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Looks pretty damned good to me.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14847 |
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I think it's pretty stiff and would fall apart vs. backspin or no-spin balls.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I think I would need to see him actually hit it against backspin or no-spin balls to say that. I am not omnipotent.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14847 |
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You don't need to be omnipotent to have a feel for the racket head speed and timing flexibility.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14847 |
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And shouldn't the word be omniscient anyways?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I see a guy who is playing against a robot feeding balls pretty fast (too fast), and possibly not accustomed to filming himself (which might explain lower racket speed than optimal*), with a nicely schooled stroke (now 29, has played in I for one have no idea what he would look like in free play, against other kinds of spin. And you are right, I should have written omniscient. And I'm still not that. I have no idea. * One thing I have seen a lot is that as soon as someone starts filming themselves, they suddenly become much less relaxed. It is pretty common, and people have to more or less forget the camera is on before they start to play their natural stroke. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Only if OP films himself doing a fixed drill looping against slow light backspin balls will it show the amount of spin he can impart with that stroke.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Clarence247
Silver Member Joined: 02/11/2014 Location: Malta Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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No, if you rotate the whole body (upper and lower) equally...that is wrong... you are simply hopping from position A (frontal) to B 90 degree (for example - it could be 75 degree or whatever).... like this you are missing the point of the rotation.... a stroke is done by: 1) positioning (get there with your feet 1st) 2) once in position - Rotation back ( a bit of lower body , but MORE upper body - roughly a ration of 1:1.5 - therefore if you rotate legs at 45% (ideal), you rotate upper body at 60%) 3) rotation forward (mostly upper body and a little lower body to get back into a neutral postion) to impart SPIN and controlled POWER 4) arm movement (which would have started at stage two (preparation) but culminates here - with the actual stroke to hit the ball... the reason for having higher upper body rotation than lower is that the lower is your PIVOT, the upper is your elastic power... you coil your body then release... if you are rotating the whole body equally you are just hopping from one position to another - SPIN and CONTROL suffer as you do not have this elastic kinetic energy |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Since it is hard to tell, would you say that the shots you were hitting in the vid with the robot fed ball were spiny? Because if you are then I would say it's not your stroke mechanic but your positioning. You could be too close to the table, not transitioning fast enough after your serve etc.... Would probably need to see match play vid that highlighted your issues.
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DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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OK, but why do you want that? Spin is a means to an end, but speed kills. Also, if the ball if coming at you with pace, it will spend less time on your blade and you will usually impart less spin. An offensive oriented player just needs to hit more shots in a row than the next guy. The other thing of course is from as close to the table as you are playing in that video, except for a third ball when you may be attacking underspin, you are just not going to be achieving or needing that much spin -- ever. That shouldn't even be the goal if you are looping from that close in. From there especially, speed kills. It would be more helpful if you showed some video of when you are looping off topspin from farther back, a circumstance when spin matters more. |
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