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strategy vs chop block |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 12:35pm |
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What is the best strategy to use against a high level player who chop blocks using long pips. He stands right at the table and covers the entire table with his backhand and chop blocks everything. Most of the time the blocks barely comes of the edge of the table.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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firetack
Silver Member Joined: 10/18/2006 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 950 |
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Try making him use his forehand,these crab like movement players usually hate that.A tomahawk sidespin serve to his wide forehand is one way to make him engage the f/h,I have had good results doing this although sometimes you will meet one who will rip it past you
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gnopgnipster
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 877 |
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Loop and push. When he chop-blocks push and loop drive his return which will have little or no spin.If he returns your loop drive the push again and repeat procedure until the point ends.
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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Yeah, tough question and a tough nut to crack. If it was easy to return those balls, people wouldn't play that way. My worst losses are against pips blockers...I'm capable of losing to someone under 1500 if they patiently play that style. Here are some things to try: 1. Serve long and flat to the backhand (assuming that's the pips side). See if the pipper can take a long no spin ball and put it back well enough to keep you from attacking. The counter to that serve (if your opponent backs up) is to serve short no spin to the middle forehand or even wide short forehand if your opponent insists on chicken winging everything. 2. Take the spin out of everything. Don't put on any spin that will be used against you. Tap the ball back and test their patience. I could do this but choose not to. 3. This one is called up/down. Serve a moderate, long backspin. Force your opponent to play it aggressively. If they block it back, you should be getting back a light topspin to attack. Continue to alternate top and backspin so you're always working against the spin. 4. Get good enough to rip everything and simply overpower your opponent. This is the right way, but a difficult way.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I agree with the dead ball strategy..
Depending on what other strengths they have lobbing or fishing may work. Hard to chop block a high bouncing ball.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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There is no best strategy - it all depends on what your strengths are and what your opponent's strengths are - you have listed some of your opponent's but none of yours. There are a few ideas you can try including all of the ones listed above. I assume you use/know how to play long pips since you used to chop, I believe.
The key is to note how your opponent primarily wins points and whether he takes advantage of things other than your point ending mistakes. For example, if you pop the ball up high to his forehand or backhand, what happens? If he doesn't attack attackable balls, then you are under no pressure to attack - your job is then to make him give you opportunities or goad him into errors. If he attacks and does so consistently in a way you can't consistently defend, then you have a bigger but still controllable problem as he clearly doesn't want to attack but will do so if necessary or easy. The basic idea is to note the spin inversion of the rally - when you topspin to the pips, the next ball will have light to heavy backspin, depending on how powerful your spin was and how skillful the pips player is. Then you push that one or loop that one again. If you push it, then the return will have light to heavy topspin, depending on the skill of the pips player but more importantly the quality of your push So you can topspin that ball with your light or heavy topspin stroke, including a smash. And so on. Note your influence on the spin that comes back You can also spin heavy to the pips with the goal of making the pips player pop up a high ball or miss off the table. If you can control a no-spin ball and your opponent does not attack no-spin balls, you can continue a dead ball rally as it can frustrate the pips player. But do remember that whoever lacks the control in this rally will simply be giving the opponent opportunities to cream the ball. If they are lower rated than I am, my power (spin and speed combination) of both my forehand and backhand loops is usually higher than they can block. But once they can block, one has to use the usual rally tricks. If they are shakehand with LP on BH and use their backhand all over the table, you can set them up by serving to their short forehand first. This gets them out of position then you can go to their backhand. Against shakehanders, transition or elbow play is generally a good idea with the wide forehand a good target for all power shots. If you have a good backspin nospin combo, serve a heavy backspin serve every once in a while to mix with your nospins. Pips still react to spin and will net heavy backspin every once in a while. Same with a well disguised topspin serve if it looks similar to your other serves - they will pop that up too. Avoid serving heavy sidespin unless you can read their returns perfectly as the ball will likely come back with sidespin on the return and affect your timing. There are many other ideas but it all depends on the opponent.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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alphapong
Silver Member Joined: 05/11/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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Good match to watch. Funny high bounce serves. I need to practice that. I tried it once in a match and missed. It's harder than it looks if you throw the ball up legally
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Just serve long no-spin or topspin and then control loop everything deep, everything will be returned to you as backspin. Easy to read! It's like playing choppers. Problem with most people is poor footwork and consistency. Well guess what, if you play against a good short pips blocker it's gonna be the same thing, you'll lose unless you can be more consistent than them.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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You haven't played a good pips blocker then. They can block heavy topspin pretty short. And you have to know when to push.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Thanks everyone for suggestions.
In this specific case I have no chance of beating this player - he's rated well over 2000 and can beat me many different ways than chop blocking. I was more interested in how to play properly against the chop block. As suggested above - at my skill level I may not be able to implement the proper technique, but would be useful to know what should be done. |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I doubt they can block heavy deep topspin short though (short meaning double bounce!). If it goes out of the table you can always reloop it. Any backspin can always be overcome by sufficient pushing of the legs. For me if I generate a lot of topspin I can be guaranteed to get good backspin back, so I know at least that I'm playing against backspin. After that it is a battle of consistency. Pushing could be a good strategy, but to me it complicates the spin which I don't like. It also opens up angles for the pips blocker to use against you. A consistent control looping strategy could reap a lot of dividends. I don't think someone like Pushblocker likes to play against control loopers too.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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The chop block is the most dangerous of all chops .... primarily because it can very difficult to tell how much spin is on the ball. A skilled chop blocker can even do it against high balls. Watching the above Pushblocker video will give you some answers. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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Okay. Hopefully, you will play against these guys and post a video. A lot of strategies work, but in my experience, repeated looping with heavy topspin when you and the blocker are at the same level is one of the less smart ones to put it mildly. They are trying to block off the bounce so yes, they can often block deep topspin short, not because it is easy, but because their style accidentally does it. One of the strengths of this style is that their spin shots don't have the same trajectories as inverted spin shots. Balls will be low without arc.
Edited by NextLevel - 09/30/2015 at 7:31am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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The chop block is less important than the use of the long pips. The chop block will only increase the backspin you get of chopped topspins (continue the spin) and the reduce the topspin you get when you push to them with backspin (against the spin). Most pushblockers will roll the backspin ball you give them unless they see you have issues reading the pips push vs. backspin. The technique of alternating one push with one topspin/roll is very easy to implement.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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I think the loop one, push one strategy is you best bet but, not everybody can play that style especially if your footwork is not that good. Whatever strategy you choose patience and consistency are the key. These players can't really beat you, all they can do is make you frustated and make you beat yourself.
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Depends on the player, I play this style, off hand left handed, can loop and do step over on BH side to do it, sometimes.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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true, but most of the very backhand orientated pushblock players don't really have a good forehand loop. The ones that do can beat you.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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Good pushblockers with solid forehands tend to be 2100+ at the minimum The forehands make their ability to put away easy balls much more consistent and force errors as well .
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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When I play LPs (penhold twiddler with LPs on one side) my training partner can high soft loop in my chop blocks all day long.
Eventually I have to try to punish him for that by twiddling back and attacking that high ball. But you have to be quick in noticing that.
If I don't do that, he will eventually overload me with spin & speed on loops. Am I doing something wrong in the chop block game? I don't get it. Edited by suds79 - 09/30/2015 at 9:11am |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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I tend to do very well (for my level) against these types of players since I was not classically trained as a junior and I spent alot of time playing against no spin balls in college. I mostly just try to keep the spin off the ball, but the problem for me is when the LP player has extremely heavy spin serves. When the LP player has extremely spinny serves, I have trouble getting the spin off the ball whilst still getting my return of serve on the table consistently.
So yeah, that's my biggest problem.
Edited by Ringer84 - 09/30/2015 at 9:37am |
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USATT Rating: 1785
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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I can control reloop as long as their rubber gives a consistent return of spin. I don't care how slick their rubber is, I can adjust. What kills me is when they give you the same block (and these aren't great players that can subtly change their stroke) and you get a different ball back every time.
Any time I see the tips visibly shinier than the sides of the pips, I know I'm not going to get a consistent output based on my input. That's where my strategies seem to break down.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Very true - when the ball is pushed back to him, he does sort of quick roll/hit - it's a quick movement but he can place it down the line or cross table - usually gets me leaning the wrong way from then on I'm on the run. If he does push it's sort of a no spin ball with quite a bit of pace - again usually away from me. You are correct I do have trouble reading the amount of spin as he can and does vary it. |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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I like your strategy. Not sure if I am skilled enough to implement it - probably not. I noticed when he plays high level players that is what they do (we are talking International/National level players) - they loop to his backhand with power and force him off the table or cause his chop block to go long. But he told me I don't have the power to drive him off the table.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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