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    Posted: 10/13/2015 at 3:53pm
I have a problem with the correct topspin ( up-spin)  - wrist-contact-ball.
I dont know how to brush the ball in the moment of the contact with the  wrist -
with straight line or I must to close in the moment of the contact ?
Thank you in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2015 at 2:47am
I see a lot of websites teaching people to use a straight line. Practically though, I see a lot of people (hobbyists) who play very well using more of a "rounded contact". It looks like the trajectory of their racket moves more in an arc than in a straight line.

I'm not sure which is better or if one is incorrect though, sorry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orionilian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2015 at 3:08pm
Hm.....Thank you.
Who know where is truth ....... Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2015 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by orionilian orionilian wrote:

Hm.....Thank you.
Who know where is truth ....... Confused

There is a truth, but your question is not clear - what are you really asking?  How to contact the ball when counterlooping?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orionilian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 3:36pm
Hm... Ok. I will be clear.
Against all basic things -  counterlooping , long service with medium up-spin,heavy backspin, counter, sidespin-block, upspin-block...???
I contact ball against counterlooping with "wrist - "straight line"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 3:49pm
What does wrist straight line mean?  What does closing at the moment of contact mean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I see a lot of websites teaching people to use a straight line. Practically though, I see a lot of people (hobbyists) who play very well using more of a "rounded contact". It looks like the trajectory of their racket moves more in an arc than in a straight line.

I'm not sure which is better or if one is incorrect though, sorry.


It's an interesting question, and may well depend on what method your coach, if you have one, advocates.  I have taken a clinic in the mid-1990s from Dan Seemiller, who advocated a linear approach.  Dan did extremely well with this manner of forehand looping, becoming along with Eric Boggan one of the top 20 players in the world in the late '70s-early-'80s.

A veteran player from St. Petersburg, Russia, on the other hand, recommended an arclike movement for the forehand loop drive, and brought a tricycle wheel to our Columbus, Ohio club to use to demonstrate what was in his opinion the correct way to execute a forehand loop drive.

I was skeptical of the arc approach to forehand looping until I saw a number of Russian players at the 1994 World Veterans' Championships in their fourties looping with a lot of topspin and great consistency using the arc method.  I would estimate their level as around 2400 USATT.

I'm pretty sure, however, that the straight line approach to forehand looping is presently used by players from expert level to international. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 4:37pm
I don't understand how it could possibly help to have your followthrough go down after contact.  To me the arc should be a straight line going up to some degree at least.

I thought the OP was asking about breaking his wrist forward at the moment of contact. This is also a no-no by what I've read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 4:38pm
The reading's that I agree with say that the wrist can move side to side (the way it doesn't move very far) on contact, parallel with the stroke.  But you shouldn't break the wrist inward.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 4:43pm
Both are viable but you lose a lot of power with the new bigger balls if you try to impart or control spin as a separate motion from your stroke, which is the cover in a nutshell. I see a lot of people who still use the cover approach or a variant of it when they have to adjust to a ball trajectory they miscalculated, including myself. But loop driving with the cover approach, especially when countering topspin is risky, IMO, and loop driving is the modern style.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 4:57pm
"which is the cover in a nutshell"  - what is "the cover"? is this the stroke in an arc mentioned earlier?  which BTW was called concave in my days when I first played.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 4:59pm
One thing to consider in the "straight vs arc" discussion is just how much of the swing you are describing.  For larger backswings and larger follow-throughs  there are definitely arcs at the beginning of the forward swing and in the follow through.  The arc in the beginning is usually almost sideways as the body rotates back forward but the arm is not being moved independent of the body.  In the follow-through the swing tends to flatten out because the shoulder limits how high up the racket can continue.  There is also usually some extra vertical (upward) movement of the racket very early in the forward swing as the player adjusts to just how high the ball is actually bouncing.  This early vertical adjustment and the flattening in the follow-through can produce what appears to be an arcing swing path.

However, if you only consider the swing for the foot before contact and foot after contact you almost always see better players swinging on a straight line in that zone.  It is hard enough to time your contact properly if swinging on a straight line, but timing if your hand and the ball are both curving is really difficult. 

If you do try to make a straight line from the start to the ball to the end of follow-through, you can actually end of making a small curve in the middle of the swing since the body mechanics will not naturally let this happen.  I always advise people I coach to swing through the contact area in a straight line and with a fixed blade angle and then allow the arm and blade angle to change naturally as they need to in the later portion of the follow-through.  This often results in the swing plane flattening out and the blade closing more in the later stages of the follow-through than they were in the contact zone.  But it is important that the player is not trying to curve the swing plane or change the blade angle in that 1 to 2 ft zone around contact with the ball.

Note: The above discussion was in terms of hitting against topspin.  When looping underspin you also get arcs early and late in the swing plane, but they tend to be in the opposite directions of the ones hitting against topspin.  Early in the swing there is little if any upward vertical adjustment so the swing appears to be curving upward when the vertical part of the arm movement starts.  If the swing plane is very vertical (as when looping heavy chop) the way the shoulder limits the swing is by causing the follow-through to travel somewhat backwards relative to the swing plane in the contact zone. 

If you limit yourself to a short backswing and a short follow-through your swing should be almost linear from start to finish.  If you watch the top women players they seem to be using much more linear strokes since they generally have shorter quicker swings.  My impression from what slow motion videos I have seen is that both the men's and women's swings are very similar in the contact zone even though they look different when viewing the entire swing.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 5:03pm
The arc doesn't make sense, the ball is simply not on the rubber surface for long enough to roll around it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 5:17pm
I am not sure, but vs. a the straight line wouldn't the downward arc have more chance of meeting a rising ball and the upward arc have more chance of meeting a falling ball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orionilian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 5:32pm
thank you all !!!
Berndt Mann Mja Mja ....very interesting opinions.
I want to share -  that with some chinese rubbers(must have not tensor ,catapult efect) slow very spinny topspin with rounded(cover,arc) line is most successful .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote orionilian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 5:44pm
I want to specify again - I mean only the line (rounded or straigth) with wrist on the ball -contact . Not overall moving - topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 8:59pm
<condescending>
Two days since this post came into existence and people still couldn't zoom in on what the OP had been specifically talking about.

Why?  You guys have no clues about Chinese rubbers.
</condescending>

For extreme spin, you want to jerk your wrist upward(radial deviation), and turn your forearm inward(pronation) moments before impact.  That takes a lot of effort and precision.  Be ready to hit edges for a while before you get it and even after you have mastered it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 9:10pm
I do that all the time and I didn't understand his question. Thanks for condescending
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 9:16pm
You're welcome.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

<condescending>
Two days since this post came into existence and people still couldn't zoom in on what the OP had been specifically talking about.

Why?  You guys have no clues about Chinese rubbers.
</condescending>

For extreme spin, you want to jerk your wrist upward(radial deviation), and turn your forearm inward(pronation) moments before impact.  That takes a lot of effort and precision.  Be ready to hit edges for a while before you get it and even after you have mastered it.



<Xtreme condescencion>Big smile

Sixty-five years ago Dick Miles, and ten years after that, Bobby Gusikoff, eleven years Miles' junior, were using radial deviation and forearm pronation when executing their powerful circular and elliptical forehand drives against underspin.  This is not a new technique. 

Both Miles and Gusikoff hit their forehands with extreme spin considering the rubber they were using, and neither of these USATT Hall of Famers were, or could have been, acquainted with something as helpful as Hurricane Neo 3 National Team Ultra Select Special Stock Hyper boosterooted to achieve their singular results for their table tennis times.




Edited by berndt_mann - 10/15/2015 at 10:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 10:30pm
Zeio,

If 0 deg is with the blade face parallel to the floor and 90 deg is with the blade face vertical,
could you describe how the blade face angle changes during the wrist movement upward and the pronating of the forearm.   I am sure it varies somewhat for different types and positions of incoming balls but could you give me an approximate idea.


Also could you provide a link to a slow motion video where I can see this movement. In the few I have found I can not readily identify the motion you are describing. I am currently trying to move to using harder and tackier rubber (using Big Dipper now and considering Hurricane 3 Neo) and am interested in getting the motion correct.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 10:31pm
OP: it's never a straight line. once you contact the ball at approximately 70-80 degrees and let the ball sink into the sponge, you then brush forwards. I don't actually know how to explain it with words, but it's a subtle process. If I may try to explain it, it's like you're brushing along the arc of the ball. You also need to tighten your grip at the moment of contact. Don't try to use too much wrist, and as a result, affect your grip (which is very common). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 11:26pm
Zeio and MLFan,

Is this "rotation at contact" technique something that a low level player say playing twice a week without coaching should try?  Or is it something that requires quite a bit of dedicated training and coaching to develop?  I know in some other sports which I played I had instructors basically tell me not to attempt certain techniques of professionals because I was only playing recreationally and could not put in the training time required to get them right.  Other things they wanted you to do just like the pros.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 11:39pm
Mjamja,

This thread may or may not be of interest to you:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71550&PN=1&title=make-your-forehand-loop-even-more-powerful
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2015 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Mjamja,

This thread may or may not be of interest to you:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71550&PN=1&title=make-your-forehand-loop-even-more-powerful

Sanity prevails.  Thank you.


Edited by NextLevel - 10/15/2015 at 11:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2015 at 2:09am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Zeio and MLFan,

Is this "rotation at contact" technique something that a low level player say playing twice a week without coaching should try?  Or is it something that requires quite a bit of dedicated training and coaching to develop?  I know in some other sports which I played I had instructors basically tell me not to attempt certain techniques of professionals because I was only playing recreationally and could not put in the training time required to get them right.  Other things they wanted you to do just like the pros.

Mark

Sorry, it's gonna be a little long. 
This isn't really anything "pro." You're asking if you can loop well without proper coaching, and the answer is going to be no, because the forehand loop takes a lot of time to develop. What's important, however, is the way you imagine spinning the ball to be (ie. just think this in your head when you loop). When you contact the ball, you should try to contact it with the racket at the 70-80 degree (so nearly perpendicular to the ground). Once you do, and feel the ball sink into the sponge(this is extremely important), you should brush the ball along the arc of the ball = not a straight line. Feeling the ball sink into the sponge is going to be very hard at first, if you're not used to it, because you simply can't feel it in time before the ball leaves your racket. When you watch some of the chinese pros like wang liqin, their forehand stroke looks linear because their motions are so compact and they can do it so fast. But that's not actually what happens, because in reality, if it were to happen that way, it would be much harder to have good consistency. Straight line = you only contact one point on the ball = impossible to have high consistency because most of the balls you play in real matches are when you're not in the optimal position = you need a wider margin of error to adjust your stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2015 at 2:44am
Thanks MLFan,

From what you are saying I am probably never going to be able to loop properly.  Between my wrist problems and the lack of coaching I probably will never get there.

You are right about not being able to see it in the video.  I looked and looked and even tried frame by frame (at least as close I could get).  It is not that I see something that confirms to me you are wrong.  It is just that everything happens so fast near contact that even in the WLQ slow motion segment I am not really sure of what I am seeing.  In freeze frame everything is so blurry that it is almost useless.

It is really hard to imagine being able to do what you describe without having much more dedicated practice time than most adult players in the US have available to them. 

Thanks again for the follow-up info.

Mark




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2015 at 3:49am
Oh dear, you're overly pessimistic! The wrist really isn't that important for looping until you're a very good player! Most of the time, a suitable racket angle and a nice power transfer from your legs to your racket are good enough to produce a great loop! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2015 at 4:11am
Did not mean to sound that pessimistic.  Lately I have been re-evaluating my game and for numerous reasons I think I will do better as more of a counter-hitter/driver.  I just do not seem to have put-away power in my loops (probably because I lack the proper wrist use you describe).  My spiny opening loop is not that bad and when I follow-up with a quick counter-hit attack I produce more winners than when I try to loop the blocks of my opening.  

I think I still have a chance of reaching 2000.  But age (I am 61) and a lack of players over 1800 in my area are going to be major impediments.  Several of the players at the club tell me they think I am playing much better than a year ago, but I can not seem to pull out that better play in tournaments where I consistently have one loss to a much lower rated player. 

I am going to try out some of the things you described.  At least as much as my wrist problems allow.  It will be interesting to see if I can start getting the power in my loops that a lot of the lower rated players at my club seem to produce so easily.  They always seem to be able to finish a point in one shot if there is any weakness in a return.  I on the other hand often take 2 or 3 shots moving the opponent around until I can finally get them out of position enough to get a very well placed ball past them.

Again thanks to all who answered my questions.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2015 at 5:53am
Sorry, to clarify, not having enough "put-away power" is most likely a problem with weight transfer and not wrist. Wrist, really, is primarily for adjusting to the type of ball that comes at you. 

Good luck on reaching 2000! :)
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