|
|
Technique is not everything if you want to improve |
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Author | |||
zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Technique may not be everything, but without technique nothing is possible.
|
|||
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
Sponsored Links | |||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Sure, but the point of deemphasizing technique is to stress that there are many serviceable techniques that support decent play, and once you have serviceable technique, get on to the harder issue of reading the game. Too much time spent on technical improvement may not have the returns for older or experienced players with serviceable technique for reasons already mentioned. |
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
|
|||
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
|||
Argothman
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
It depends on your perspective and your resources. If you are an amateur with little access to coaching and/or little training time, or you don't care about becoming a high-level player, then I think you should focus on more practical techniques that rely on easier effective strategies rather than difficult techniques. However, if you are young, and/or have coaching, and/or can train often, then I think you should focus on technique, everything from strokes to strategy. In the long-run, a focus on technique will lead you to a higher level, and if you choose not to focus on technique you hamstring your long-term potential.
Again, it depends on your resources and goals. |
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Again, people are missing the point of the original post. Let's assume that you think Ma Long has the best forehand technique in the world and you have the forehand technique of say, Samson Dubina or Brian Pace. You are an 1800 player. Should you spend your time trying to make your technique like Ma Long or should you just try to adapt your technique to more practice situations?
|
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Solid Techniques are great to have whatever level everyone is (most of us will never be world beaters will we?) …..application of that certain technique when it matters under pressure is what matters or being open minded enough to use it is what makes a good player IMHO. I sometimes think of Table tennis and martial arts/fighting in the same way. Both have techniques which need to be trained to a certain level. The problem is when you actually get down to the nitty gritty of actually using the techniques for real those pretty movements don’t always do the job and you need to improvise, think on your feet and find that shot that works for that situation. Especially when age and or injury come into play. |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
You do not need to have a ma long forehand or wang liqin forehand to be good but you can raise your basics level into acceptable and correct level that your strokes become more efficient. Learning and improving are part of the sport. If you stop learning on one area and just cover it up by improving other areas then aren't you just putting excuses in order not to improve?
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
kenneyy88
Premier Member Joined: 01/06/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4074 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
There are certainly core principles that make up technique that are important if you want to be a good player. The subtleties and aesthetics of technique surely can help, but you can also get better by other aspects of the game such as tactics, strategy, mental.
|
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
No, you are not. Sometimes, a man has got to know his limitations.
|
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
If your limitations due to poor technique will lead you to possible injury in the future wouldn't that be reason enough to improve your strokes somehow no matter how little improvement you will have? And with the access to internet and everything, what really limits a person to try and improve? Is it really the resources including the time to practice or the attitude towards improvement? Some players are contented with their level of play, others try hard to improve and i have seen a lot of people improve their gameplay by studying the correct strokes and i have some a lot also who are just lazy to try, which one are we in?
Having a good technique is one thing but it needs strategy also in order for it to be applied. Both go hand in hand but you are greatly hampered for improvement when you do not have the right basics in the first place. |
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
There are 3 aspects that make up the core essentials in playing good - technical, gameplay and mental. All are essential and none is to be disregarded.
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
If your attempts to improve your technique lead you to possible injury in the future, wouldn't that be a reason enough to foresake technical improvement somehow because you can improve at other things that will still help your game? We can pretend technical improvement is always without injury risk but anything that involves extensive physical practice is not. The key question is whether one's technique is serviceable or not. Again, in the context of my original question, let's say your technique is like Brian Pace or Saive and you believe superior technique like Ma Long or Zhang Jike, if you are over 40 years old, should you spend your time acquiring the technique of the latter or should you just improve your ability to use your current technique? Again, the question is not about whether you need technique that checks the boxes, or whether there is a technical ideal box that fits all sizes and whether it is worth it acquiring that technique just for its own sake.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/03/2016 at 3:07am |
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Having the wrong technique surely leads to injury if done repeatedly. The premise is foregoing technique and improving other areas and why make an example of a highly trained athlete? You can have the right technique but done in a slower and less forcefull way. You do not need to emulate the way they apply force. Also, you can practice your basic loops in a match or on drills but less productive compared to doing it over n over again and focusing on it.
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Maybe because just about everyone who teaches or models looping in videos are highly trained athletes? And untrained people say all the wrong things when people who are not highly trained athletes model loops?
You don't seem to understand the main point being made and keep on going off on tangents that have already been addressed. There is no single "right technique" - there is technique that checks the boxes, or there are many right techniques. Correct technique can also cause injuries depending on each individual's make up and the amount of practice being done to ingrain the technique. Injury prevention and treatment, not proper technique, is what prevents injuries. What has been said is that should you push your technique as an amateur to make it more like a current world champion from China, or should you just look for technique that checks the boxes and stick with that, knowing that other things make or break your game and aspects of the World Champion's technique are really quirks or personalized improvements? And if you cannot generate significant racket head speed with your loop, then good luck with it. You are better off becoming a hitter as looping requires excess racket head speed. And the plastic ball hasn't made anything easier. Edited by NextLevel - 02/03/2016 at 5:20am |
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I disagree. There is the right basic technique but with variations. There are are correct ways of executing a stroke and they fall within acceptable boundaries. Significant racket speed is different from executing it with poor speed. You are trying to muddle the concept of the way doing a stroke correctly and doing it to the maximum level a world class athlete can. You can do stroke in the right way without going to the level of a world class athlete.
There are several types of loop and not just the one that you gake on the rise. There is a loop timing that you contact the ball when it goes down and you do not need too much speed and force at the sime time excellent for us mortals that cannot take the ball early. It is a spinny but slow loop but it is a basic stroke that can be done by people with no high level training. |
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
with respect, you are completely missing the point, try reading the op again. |
|||
The Older I get, The better I was.
|
|||
Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||
I think the hardest part for most amateurs is knowing whether or not they've checked off all the necessary boxes (as NL likes to say). For example, when I posted my very first BH topspin video, Brett Clarke thought that my technique was basically uncapped, but Nextlevel did not. When we as amateurs arent sure whether or not our technique is uncapped, we tend to just keep obsessing over every detail for years on end until we reach what we view as "perfection".
Whenever I evaluate someones technique now, I only look for 3 things and 3 things only 1. The ability to create a whip effect and high racket speed 2. Proper elbow position 3. Reasonable finishing position for generating spin and arc on the ball. If those 3 things are in order, it's time for the amateur to stop obsesing over technique. |
|||
USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit FH: Andro Rasant BH: Baracuda |
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I think ending that obsession begins with understanding the role of ball reading skills and stroke adaptation in a person's playing strength.
BTW: Really? Just those 3? No core rotation? Knee bend? Or not even a smell test for when your boxes are not checked but there is spin on the ball? Or left knee below straight right knee and collapsing on backswing as a sign of issues? |
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I completely understand what the op is saying and that i am disagreeing with the generalizations made.
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Could you post a video of your teaching someone to loop with late timing and proper technique? You are an ITTF certified coach so surely you must do this all the time.
|
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Players who are learning/improving sometimes need to examine some facts that are easy to ignore. Why is the best player in your town/province/state, the best ? You can't leapfrog him by copying world class player alone, especially if you have limited practice time and resources. If you want perfect technique (IMO there is no such thing) there are plenty of coaches who will take your money off you, but few who will teach you how to win.
|
|||
The Older I get, The better I was.
|
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I can if i have time. |
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I think this is a very interesting thread. I strongly agree with the original poster - but don't necessarily disagree with many other opinions. While I think that "adequate" technique is a requirement, the definition of adequate varies tremendously depending on level, tactics, physical ability (or limitation), and most definitely goals and aspirations. My biggest and quickest jump came from working with a coach who stressed footwork, balance, and anticipation. We drilled 100% on those items at first. His mantra (for me, at that time) was "getting to the correct position, in time, and balanced will allow almost any stroke to work". My level of play - based primarily on the players I could beat at the club - went up drastically after a couple months. I still had (still do!) have huge holes in my game, but I was now able to capitalize on many, many more of my opponent's mistakes and generally put them under much more pressure. My next biggest jump came from the same coach after he started working with me on my serves, serve returns, and third ball attacks. But he didn't worry about this till after working on the above for a long time. Sadly, he moved away before fixing all the other holes in my game! I think that technique is important, but lovely technique does not trump tactics, anticipation, footwork, service skill, serve return skill, experience, or a number of other things. All other things being relatively equal though, better technique can definitely become an advantage. More efficient strokes - which tend to lead to easier power, easier spin, more consistency, better finishing position, quicker recovery, and easier balance really matter when the other guy/gal has similar "other abilities". bes
|
|||
CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Wow! That's a gem of a post. Thanks!... Now you've got me in analytical mode... Could be technically good enough already, but lack winning strategy & tactics and need to research properly... Not funny at all... |
|||
1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
|
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
So what kind of person do you teach this loop to? Just curious. Or should I just wait for the video? |
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
All ages and levels. It is imperative that a player should know the 3 basic timing of loops because it is not everytime you can take the ball early like the world champs. If against heavy backspin, taking the ball late or the moment it begins to descend is easier to execute.
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Yes, exactly the point. That coach of yours is a gem. I never dismiss technique as an important part of any players game, and with out a doubt players displaying good sound technique show the best potential, for their own personal situation. However having a realistic potential and actually achieving it are two different things. Locally, we all live in areas with 'champions' of towns, districts etc, and there are two types, ones that have been trained to international level sometime in their history, and are now playing more recreationally, they never lose their class and carry it until they drop off through age, but there are many who just manage to find out how to rise above all around them. Dedication over the rest is the major factor because increased dedication on the table usually brings increased knowledge as well, but there is a danger, and I personally wasted about 10 years after my initial formative years, falling for it, so I do speak from experience, In was not until my early 30's that I got the right advice on where to look as to why 10 years of believing that drilling for a better technique enters into the realms of diminishing returns when considering results on the table. Today, my technique is from the 1970's, and not the best from that era either, but I am still in the top 1 percent ranking wise in my country ( hanging on just) at over 50 years old. So guys think about it, There are everywhere, old gits like me that are better than you, and I can guarantee 100% non of them are better because they set WLQ as their technique model.
|
|||
The Older I get, The better I was.
|
|||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
Thanks - the answer shows you still don't understand the topic, but it's okay.
|
|||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
I reiterate that I understand it completely and I disagree about discarding one aspect of the game to concentrate on other areas of the game instead. I also disagree with the arguements presented because because people would use the world class player stroke without putting into consideration that you can have a good proper stroke that is considered scientifically right and acceptable range. Mediocrity is one way but it is not the best way. Too many generelizations made just to back their claims.
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||
And why would you deemphasize technique when technique itself is an integral part of having a good game? You would forego studying how to loop and instead just resolve to hitting balls? When one hits the ball thick through the sponge when he needs to brush the ball in a situation where amateur level and lower level players tend to push more, wouldn't ball contact be important and a part of basic technique that the player needs? If a player has limited time and resources in order for him to improve he can choose to just cocentrate on other areas, but is it the best choice? NOPE.
|
|||
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
|||
Post Reply | Page <1234> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |