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Advice on Where to Concentrate to Improve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2016 at 11:24pm
Thanks. I may try and go back to how I used to do it, and refine it more with all the new things I've learnt.

Also, I noticed my toss wasn't very high as well, and I don't usually have a flat open palm. I'll work on fixing it. Thanks!

Last night I had my second ever backhand loop session. My loop is still very slow and high, and the pushed balls didn't have much underspin, but it was a good experience for something that I haven't been able to do at all up until now. I'll see if I can get a video up later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b3nhold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/01/2016 at 2:54pm
You are too defensive on returning serves. Your forehand is quite strong, due to weight transfer and a good brushing action. Try to step around on serves to your backhand side - this will win you more points. Waist rotation is a problem, especially on the backhand and it makes you passive. So rotate into the shot and your arm, then you will be able to direct the ball better. To get more power, spin and accuracy on forehand make your arm longer which you are starting to do well.
So generally lean into the shot more, using much more waist, leg and forearm snap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2016 at 5:03am
I've been really busy recently, so I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts I was making awhile back! Also, it has been a little sad seeing so few posts on myTT. So here's another post to hopefully get some conversation going! I also can't believe it has been 2 months since I posted this. I'm steadily improving, though not as quick as I'd like.

I posted a video of the problems I was having with my reverse pendulum serve a few posts back. I ended up going back to how I used to do it, adding variation to the serve. I'm really confident in doing the side-top spin serve and relatively confident with the side-under one now. The side-top spin variation actually wins me a lot of points outright.

I also improved my backhand serve drastically since. A lot of people much stronger than me are having trouble reading if it's side-top or side-under. It's nice having people who compete a few divisions higher than me say that they're struggling with reading the spin on my serve. If I have time I'll post a video of it, too.

Anyway, here's the reverse pendulum one. The first serve is side-top, and the second one is side-under. Then a slowmo of the side-top and side-under. Then a side by side of both.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2016 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I've been really busy recently, so I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts I was making awhile back! Also, it has been a little sad seeing so few posts on myTT. So here's another post to hopefully get some conversation going! I also can't believe it has been 2 months since I posted this. I'm steadily improving, though not as quick as I'd like.

I posted a video of the problems I was having with my reverse pendulum serve a few posts back. I ended up going back to how I used to do it, adding variation to the serve. I'm really confident in doing the side-top spin serve and relatively confident with the side-under one now. The side-top spin variation actually wins me a lot of points outright.

I also improved my backhand serve drastically since. A lot of people much stronger than me are having trouble reading if it's side-top or side-under. It's nice having people who compete a few divisions higher than me say that they're struggling with reading the spin on my serve. If I have time I'll post a video of it, too.

Anyway, here's the reverse pendulum one. The first serve is side-top, and the second one is side-under. Then a slowmo of the side-top and side-under. Then a side by side of both.




you have very good reverse pendulum serves, very good for a player at your level. A lot of spin, the motion and contact are nice, too. Have you learned it from Yoshimura Maharu? Your serve looks pretty similar to his.

I don't know if you can change the placement, but try doing that. And a long fast serve with similar motion will be great, too. I think your reverse pendulum serve is better than your normal pendulum serve, perhaps you can make it your main serve since I think you have talent (good ball feeling) with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2016 at 3:02pm
I would be surprised if the backspin version was true backspin. The wrist action is good but unless your follow through is deceptive, it should be smaller. In any case, I could give a better critique with a better sense of your goals for the serve. It is a common mistake to build up spinny serves when your strokes cannot attack behind them so work on a no spin version of your main serves. Also, learn to serve basic backspin and no spin.

My view is that people should start out with 3 serves, either on forehand or BH with variations and preferences. One serve should have pendulum sidespin, the other the reverse, and the last should be backspin/no spin. The specific serves to produce these spins are not an issue at lower levels, just the ability to serve and attack behind them. This is a good serve as a backup but with a good backhand serve already, you should put more work into fixing your pendulum. You are a lefty too, so your pendulum should be one of your strongest weapons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2016 at 8:55pm
Thank you guys!

@balldance I didn't learn it copying any one particular person. I kind of just watched various reverse pendulum serves in slow motion (I like Timo Bolls and Zhang Jike's ones from the gifs thread). I also watched the reverse pendulum serve video from the Spins n' Skills series a lot. 

I actually struggle to change the placement of the serves. I can usually do a wide version (like in the video) and one that goes to the middle of the table. My consistency drops a lot when I try to do it down the line. It's something I'm working on so hopefully I'll have that variation in my arsenal soon, too!

Awhile back I used to mainly use the reverse pendulum serve, but I found that people eventually get used to it, and when they do, my third ball consistency goes down. Though usually their receive is quite weak. I just get beat by my own side spin. Funnily enough, exact what NextLevel just said! So recently I've been mixing it in only 1 or 2 times a set.

I also have a side-top regular pendulum serve that has been pretty effective so far. It's a little more speed than spin. I can't do a very good pure side spin or side-under spin with my regular pendulum serve. They end up being close to a no-spin serve (so I still use them quite effectively).

@NextLevel The purpose of my side-under variation is just to mix it up. I rarely ever miss the side-top version, but the side-under version I might miss 25% of the time. So I generally only use it after using the side-top a few times during the match. It usually throws people off enough that they end up netting the ball. I think that happens because nearly everyone hits the ball over the first time they receive the side-top version. So when I do it the second time, they close their racket quite a bit when they hit the ball. That's when the side-under has success. I think most people who often play against me will know that my reverse pendulum serve is nearly always side-top, which is why I've been trying to practice it to look as similar as possible to the side-top version.

I have a pure underspin serve with decent spin, but it's just a forehand brushing under the ball serve. Very obviously underspin. I've been working on the heavy underspin version (success rate still only like 25%) and a no-spin version (success rate probably like 50%). I think once I get those with more consistency it'll be great. It's a consistent serve I generally use at least 4 points per set. I also use it when I'm practicing against weaker opponents if I want to practice my third ball attack.

My backhand serves are quite spinny. I think there are two reasons why it works so well. The first one is that I can do a short side-top serve with pretty good consistency. I rarely miss the serve, though sometimes it become long by mistake. The second reason is that my side-under spin one looks like a side-top serve. I think I exaggerate the upward movement of my arm after contact a lot for both serves, and that's where the deception comes in. Though I am working on making my swing more compact. To be honest, sometimes even I don't know what spin I've served. At least once a match, sometimes twice, I'd serve under-top, they'll hit the ball and it'll instantly drop into the net. I'm as confused as my opponent during those times. I try very hard to get the contact very close for both the side-top and side-under, so sometimes I mistime it and it becomes the opposite spin.

I do think my serves are carrying me above my level. The rest of my game needs a lot more work!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2016 at 7:46am
It's not bad to serve above your level unless you don't know how to reduce the spin on your serve as a variation. The biggest problem with heavy spin serves for most players at your level is having the stroke to return the ball if the serve is returned correctly as most lower rated players swing at spinny balls without the timing to make the right contact to match or overpower the spin. But getting points off your serve or third ball gets you to face better players faster if you play in that kind of environment.

Serving plain backspin is fine. The next step is to get a no spin serve. Look for the Brett Clarke video where he demonstrates the optimal arm/elbow position with a mop. Then practice serving backspin and no spin out of that position. Working on making the two serves look very similar will teach you a lot about spin and will give you a potent combo to get third ball attack opportunities at all levels. The thing about a good no spin serve or light backspin serve is that even a low push will usually not load up the ball with more spin than you can attack behind so you can attack behind it at will and be ready to spin up behind the backspin serve against good returns. But in my experience, it's just the hardest serve to consistently read correctly and the serve I see people use the least for no good reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/09/2016 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thank you guys!

@balldance I didn't learn it copying any one particular person. I kind of just watched various reverse pendulum serves in slow motion (I like Timo Bolls and Zhang Jike's ones from the gifs thread). I also watched the reverse pendulum serve video from the Spins n' Skills series a lot. 

I actually struggle to change the placement of the serves. I can usually do a wide version (like in the video) and one that goes to the middle of the table. My consistency drops a lot when I try to do it down the line. It's something I'm working on so hopefully I'll have that variation in my arsenal soon, too!

Awhile back I used to mainly use the reverse pendulum serve, but I found that people eventually get used to it, and when they do, my third ball consistency goes down. Though usually their receive is quite weak. I just get beat by my own side spin. Funnily enough, exact what NextLevel just said! So recently I've been mixing it in only 1 or 2 times a set.

I also have a side-top regular pendulum serve that has been pretty effective so far. It's a little more speed than spin. I can't do a very good pure side spin or side-under spin with my regular pendulum serve. They end up being close to a no-spin serve (so I still use them quite effectively).

I do think my serves are carrying me above my level. The rest of my game needs a lot more work!!


well, I forgot about that (you may have trouble handling the spin from your own serves). Your reverse pendulum serve seems to have a lot of spin, so it's totally understandable that you have problem dealing with the spin (especially side spin) even if the return is weak. NextLevel is definitely right about that.

You are like the opposite of me, my serves are not good enough compared to my other skills and sometimes that prevents me from utilizing my pretty good rally skills. If I have better serves, I can move to another level.

Have you watched this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4  It's a great tutorial, I was able to improve my serves after watching it. I kind of knew this mechanics before but seeing him doing it and explaining about it was really helpful. You should watch his other videos, too. Brett is a great coach, his tutorials are very easy to understand and practice. Well, you don't need to follow/copy exactly everything, the most important thing to learn is the mechanics of different strokes.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/10/2016 at 11:15am
Thanks NL. Recently I've been getting a lot better at executing my own third ball attack with my side spin serves. As long as the opponent isn't way above my level, I usually do decent with it! I agree with what you said about the no spin variation. No one really talks much about it, but a lot of people at the clubs I go to use simple backhand or forehand underspin serve with a no spin variation, and it's extremely effective. I always misread it and push it, or overshoot the ball when I attack it. It's why I've been slowly working on it too :)

@balldance Wow, that's a really good video. I've seen a lot of Brett's videos, but I haven't seen that one yet. I'm going to show it to my students, too. The slow motions are really nice and clear to demonstrate the effect.

By the way, you can see a very good example of the serves I did in the above video in the "Another Rating Estimation Thread!". It's good because it's in an actual match setting, and it's taken from a different angle. It's a lot easier to see the top and bottom spin from this angle (slow it down on youtube). I'll repost it here, too. The very first point of the set I did the side-top variation. My opponent (who is really strong) misreads it and pops it over. The second point I did the side-under variation.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2016 at 6:37pm
Here's a clip of a session I did the other day. It was a match drill where you serve underspin, have it pushed to your backhand side, drive the ball to their backhand, block it to their forehand, then free play.

I really need to work on being more aggressive against underspin balls. I ended up looping the ball most the time. As many people have mentioned before, I play too safe. Really need to work on that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2016 at 7:21pm
Spinning the ball is the professional play. You need the drive play as a variation and to test your ability to read the opponent's ball but the spin play is more important because players at your level or higher will not consistently give you the drive play. You need to be able to both high arc and low arc the spin play and in fact, the drive play is tied to the low arc spin play.

It's really about experimentation. You have to just do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2016 at 2:50am
Yeah, I definitely prefer adding spin over speed. Just like you mentioned, at the moment I lack variation. Sometimes the ball goes faster, and sometimes it's slower and more spinny, but I'm not at a stage where I can conscientiously control it. I'd like to learn to be more aggressive on weakly pushed balls like in this video (from the match I posted above, but a different set).



I think the general idea is to try and brush over the ball at its peak. Right now I wait for the ball to start to drop, then brush it diagonally upwards, sometimes along the back of the ball only.

I'll try and practice it slowly :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2016 at 2:06pm
that training session, it doesn't look like a drive to me, it looks just like a loop to me. You just had a little more solid contact with the ball and don't try to lift it as much as usual. You still generated pretty much spin with that shot, which is not necessarily bad. I think a right combination of speed and spin is the right way. Sometimes more speed, sometimes more spin, but you will need both in FH loop/loopdrive.
To be that aggressive with your FH like the guy in blue, you need to improve the mechanics of your FH loop. You can see how much power he generates from his leg, body and the weight transition. Most of your FH power comes from your arm, which is not enough.
First, I think you can improve the upper part of the body first. You can see your free arm/shoulder is stiff when looping, look at the guy in blue, his free arm moves freely, very relaxed. Try to relax your shoulders before you loop and when you swing, try to swing both your shoulders and your arm, not just arm alone.
When you are good with that, work on the lower body part, this time imagine like you use mostly your legs and hips to generate power with weight transfer, arm and shoulder just do the last moment whip (don't need to swing too hard).
When you are good with that as well, keep that part and add more work to the arm and shoulder (swing harder), your FH should be very powerful.

People have different ways of doing FH loops but when you can generate power from your whole body, you will have a good FH no matter how it looks like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2016 at 8:14pm
Yeah, I agree balldance. It's definitely more of a loop than a drive. I don't think I have a drive against underspin at the moment. Good explanation of the forehand loop drive. I've learnt so much from this thread thanks to everyone. I still lack the skills to execute it, but my understanding of what needs to be done has improved ten fold. I'll try and take it slow at first to work on those body mechanics. Hopefully in the near future I'll have something a little more powerful to show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2016 at 8:44pm
IMO the most bang for the training buck comes from serve and return drills, as well as footwork, balance and anticipation training.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2016 at 1:57am
Yeah. It's actually quite hard to get that type of practice in all the time. Most people just want to play matches. But I've been putting effort into asking when I practice with certain people who I know will be willing. 

Personally I really like consistency practice, too. But most people don't have the patience for it.

The other day I asked if I could do some simple footwork practice. It was the second or third time in over 2 years that I was able to do it. I remember seeing some students doing it and thinking, man, while I can beat those students in a match, there's no way I'd be able to do that. I don't have the consistency for it.

I ended up doing better than I thought I would. It was a lot of fun, and I wish I could do things like this more often.

Here's the video.



EDIT: @balldance Wow, I just watched some videos of Yoshimura's serves and they are very similar to how I've been doing it. I'll watch more of his serves to see if it can help me improve mine. I'm not a fan of using the head to cover the ball, so I'll probably leave that part out :)


Edited by mickd - 04/13/2016 at 3:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2016 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yeah. It's actually quite hard to get that type of practice in all the time. Most people just want to play matches. But I've been putting effort into asking when I practice with certain people who I know will be willing. 

Personally I really like consistency practice, too. But most people don't have the patience for it.

The other day I asked if I could do some simple footwork practice. It was the second or third time in over 2 years that I was able to do it. I remember seeing some students doing it and thinking, man, while I can beat those students in a match, there's no way I'd be able to do that. I don't have the consistency for it.

I ended up doing better than I thought I would. It was a lot of fun, and I wish I could do things like this more often.

Here's the video.

EDIT: @balldance Wow, I just watched some videos of Yoshimura's serves and they are very similar to how I've been doing it. I'll watch more of his serves to see if it can help me improve mine. I'm not a fan of using the head to cover the ball, so I'll probably leave that part out :)


Yoshimura's serve looks really deceptive, even if you leave that (head cover the ball) part out. Almost the same bat angle and motion before and after contact, only the contact is different. It's hard to copy, though :)

yeah, I agree about the practice part, for a new player like you, ideally it should be 70/30 or even 80/20 (practicing/matches), practice is important to build/improve your technique and matches help you learn how to use the technique in real matches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2016 at 3:44pm
More Power!!! Watch Vids of Ma Long, he puts his whole freaking body into fh and BH. You're using 1 percent. Shadow practice in the mirror no ball to learn the feeling for it, go all out, stretch first
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/15/2016 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

More Power!!! Watch Vids of Ma Long, he puts his whole freaking body into fh and BH. You're using 1 percent. Shadow practice in the mirror no ball to learn the feeling for it, go all out, stretch first

Do you have any videos to share of your 100% play?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/04/2016 at 11:11am
Sorry for the delayed response. I have still been playing, just a little busy with work and organising and teaching at the school club.

Speed and power are definitely things I'm working towards, but not something I'm placing too much of my time into. I'm more concerned at the moment with my form, footwork, and even some of the basic strokes like a backhand topspin (which I completely lack).

The other day at the end of practice, I recorded a short video of me trying to relax my free hand when hitting topspins. Something I really didn't like was how my free hand would always just dangle down the side of my body. It's a work in progress, but I'm slowly getting used to having it swing a little as I hit the ball. Still a long way to go, though.

Though while watching that video, I noticed something about my footwork which I'm curious about. Usually when I loop underspin, I bring my left foot (left handed) towards the ball, close to the table, with my foot facing parallel to the table. What I've noticed now is that I always have my foot like that when hitting any ball using my forehand.

Maybe it's okay, but it's bothering me a little because awhile back one of the players at my club kept telling me that my left knee was swaying too much from left to right (instead of just rotating a little on the spot). And I think the reason why that happens is that I'm rotating my knees as well as my upper body. I found that having my foot face slightly towards the table helped prevent that issue.

But I'm also not sure if it really is an issue. What do you guys think?



P.S. On another unrelated note, I was surprised that I got the third ball in! In the past, those balls that don't quite come at me, I used to miss because my center of gravity was too high. They would drop as I was swinging my arm, causing me to miss the ball completely. In the last month or so, once a week I've been working on getting down lower to hit low balls. I think that was the first time I did a shot like that without thinking.


Edited by mickd - 05/04/2016 at 11:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/05/2016 at 1:04pm
I see improvement in your FH topspin, especially the first one is very good, the other two have a small timing issue, your backswing is a little too soon, but it will improve with time.
Regarding your footwork, I can see what he talked about (your left knee was swaying too much from left to right), I think it's because your stance is not wide enough and you lose your balance when you transfer weight from left to right. Try a little wider stance and see if it can fix that. If you can't fix it, don't worry too much, it's not that big of an issue for you right now, maybe your legs just lack some power to keep you balance on weight transfer.
Keep it up!!








Edited by balldance - 05/05/2016 at 1:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/08/2016 at 10:12pm
Thanks balldance. I've also been trying to work on my back swing. I always end up swinging my arm too far backwards (instead of swinging downwards towards just behind my knee), which makes it especially hard to attack under spin balls.

I think I agree with you about my stance. I'll try widen it more. I think that'll help a lot, so thanks!

I had a local tournament the other day. I played in division 4 (1 being the strongest, and 7 generally being the weakest). I say generally because new teams start from 7, and they have to come first to advance to 6, and so long. I went 3-2. 3-1 singles, and 0-1 doubles. It was a team match, so I got a little lucky with my opponents. The one singles match I lost was against a long pips backhand using middle school boy.
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Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/09/2016 at 1:46pm
you're right, you swing your arm too far backwards, it's because you start swinging too soon, if you just wait a little bit before swinging back, you won't have that much time and as a result, your swing must be more compact and you will also have more momentum than swinging back too soon. Of course, if the ball is faster, you need to start swinging sooner. Just don't swing back too soon and wait a long time for the ball, that's not good.

it's normal that you have problems playing against long pips at this stage, I don't think you should worry too much about that. It seems you have a lot of competition matches, that's great for you.


Edited by balldance - 05/09/2016 at 1:49pm
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