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Tips against short pimple

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    Posted: 06/19/2016 at 9:29pm
Hi guys, I just went to my first tournament ever as shake hander and could make it to the quarter finals of my category when I got crushed by a short pimples player. The funny thing is that this guy lost in the finals to the 2nd player of my own group, but I didn't have any chance against him because as usual I can't win a single game where I can't take the initiative.

My problem is that there is not anyone using short pimples on my club so any tips would be welcomed to prepare myself better in the future.

Thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanhao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2016 at 9:40pm
i also trying to learn how to be better against SP. From some theory+ practical..

i remind myself after the 2nd push, SP ball contain lesser underspin and thus i should push with more open bat angle.  
sometimes it work better to serve more float no spin (not too fast/slow serve) to refrain SP from borrowing a spinny serve from me which will be uncomfortable when return back.  
try to brush more because SP are afraid of spin and mostly their ball contain flat or little topspin in rally.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2016 at 9:51pm
Will the moderators please delete any posts to this thread that provide useful information on how to defeat short pips players.

Mark - Who lives by the SP and often dies by the SP.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crowsfeather Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2016 at 10:00pm
I brushing my blade up straight no forward push, bat angle 90 degree open.
I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nasche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/19/2016 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Will the moderators please delete any posts to this thread that provide useful information on how to defeat short pips players.


lol

Man, I had previously played against short pimples the last time about 22 years ago, I had a rough time today managing the game. I blocked most of his shots into the net, could finish most of my points looping deep and full of spin or on 3rd ball attacks, but it was tough to loop his balls into the table. Not looping some balls went to the net and he could just hit every dead ball or balls with little backspin.

Looping against block was also tough because the ball came shorter than I'm used against inverted and I had to keep moving to get into the ideal position a bit late. The guy could also loop, but it was slow and I couldn't block it well because it used to just go down and when I tried to attack those weak loops my time was screwed, the ball seems to bounce low, a bit awkward and looses speed quickly.

Not a good experience, I could have won the finals but not this match Confused


Edited by Nasche - 06/19/2016 at 11:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 12:17am
1999 WTTC, Waldner x He Zhi Wen.
This was probably the best example I´ve seen of a shakehand player dominance over a SP penholder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 8:39am
Flat hitting style of sp users are hard to block near the table if you are not used to it. Middle distance they seem to lose the ball's speed ang power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simon_xuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 9:51am
Zheng Jiaqi plays SP in US. If the SP player doesn't have backhand loop, then you may get a chance looping and locking long against the opponent's backhand. If you are at the similar rating, there is a good chance SP will win out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPOQMAlCytg


Edited by simon_xuan - 06/20/2016 at 10:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 10:03am
I play with a sp player. He serves long to the corner, does not toss ball before serving, and serves when you are not ready.

It is a good idea to loop more vertically than forwardly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nasche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by simon_xuan simon_xuan wrote:

Zheng Jiaqi plays SP in US. If the SP player doesn't have backhand loop, then you may get a chance looping and locking long against the opponent's backhand. If you are at the similar rating, there is a good chance SP will win out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPOQMAlCytg

He was a RPB player with pimples just on the FH. I still overplayed his BH but I had I tough time with my own backhand against his pimples, my tempo was screwed. Passive balls went to the net and most loops a bit long. I had to brush loop to land my loops, but M1 is not an easy rubber to do that on BH, it works better when you make a full committed stroke. Maybe it's time to think about a softer rubber on BH like most dudes, I almost never use this kind of stroke against inverted or LP. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 12:12pm
It depends on the style and level of the player. In general, SP, or any PIP, rubber does not have a lot of catapult or bounce like the inverted, so if you don't give them a lot of power or spin, they will have to work harder to cause trouble to you.

Most of club SP player only use it to block and set up the attack, so if you attack first and quick (close to the table) to the pip side, it usually does not come back, as SP requires active block, so if he's not prepared, he can not block it, sticking the paddle out to block does not work with SP. I like to play the ball wide to the inverted side to make him reach, then attack the PIP side.

For SP aggressive hitter, well I am scared of aggressive hitter in general LOL, because I have to play outside of my comfort zone. I always try to play the ball deep and wide, and as low as possible to make it harder to hit, my percentage will drop, but more so on his hitting, so I think I have the advantage in doing so. I also rush the ball, playing at a faster pace, if he does not have time to time the ball, he cannot hit. Against good hitter, I sometimes playing at a faster pace then I can handle, get into a dog fight, and hopefully his aggressiveness will get him into more trouble than I will .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by Nasche Nasche wrote:

Originally posted by simon_xuan simon_xuan wrote:

Zheng Jiaqi plays SP in US. If the SP player doesn't have backhand loop, then you may get a chance looping and locking long against the opponent's backhand. If you are at the similar rating, there is a good chance SP will win out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPOQMAlCytg

He was a RPB player with pimples just on the FH. I still overplayed his BH but I had I tough time with my own backhand against his pimples, my tempo was screwed. Passive balls went to the net and most loops a bit long. I had to brush loop to land my loops, but M1 is not an easy rubber to do that on BH, it works better when you make a full committed stroke. Maybe it's time to think about a softer rubber on BH like most dudes, I almost never use this kind of stroke against inverted or LP. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bilbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Will the moderators please delete any posts to this thread that provide useful information on how to defeat short pips players.

Mark - Who lives by the SP and often dies by the SP.



LOL

I quite enjoy this thread as a sp player, I can learn what other's strategies are against me so I can work on those deficiencies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote heplayslikearobot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 6:19pm
Penholders with short pimples will be looking to mix up blocking, punching and smashing by using your pace and placing the ball in an inconvenient spot. Their play style is almost solely dictated by an aggressive, close to the table game that is flat and fast. They also can not generate nearly as much spin as in inverted rubber. Essentially, they are looking to completely set the tempo. They will block you around until they get a weak return which they will then smash.

Because of the lack of spin, they will generally serve long. This will also generally warrant a long return back, which they can then attack. The serves will also usually be out wide, making you move outside of the table and putting you in an uncomfortable position which can be exposed. The way to handle this is to hit slower, spinny balls rather than something ridiculously fast. It will give you more time, and give them less pace to work with. Short pimples tend to excel when the ball has lower amounts of spin as well.

Also, due to the lack of spin, their shots will generally skim or float opposed to kicking up, so just be mindful of that. Don't expect much spin on their receives either, compared to regular rubbers. If you serve heavy backspin and they push, expect a more dead ball with a moderate-light amount of backspin, depending on the pimple and the push itself. Keep in mind that since there is far less spin, pimples tend to do quite badly away from the table because they can't generate the topspin to ensure safety over the net and onto the table.

As soon as you try to play fast, you're just asking for it to go badly. It's like playing against a wall, but one that can hit fast, and put it in places you don't want it. Hitting as hard as you can into the short pimples doesn't really bother the player. You need to either use slower balls with more spin or attack hard to wide angles or right into their body. You cannot just play to the wings.

You should also try to play more long. A long serve of push forces them away from the table, which is where they are at a disadvantage. Try pushing long and see if they can drive the ball. If not, they will often be forced into a push which you can then attack.

Depending on the player and grip, if they have an inverted rubber, try attacking that. It may be beneficial as they may be very good with their pimples and not as good with their inverted rubber. 

As with playing against pimples, try to get out there and play against them as much as you can and implement the right tactics. You'll be good at playing them eventually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by heplayslikearobot heplayslikearobot wrote:

Penholders with short pimples will be looking to mix up blocking, punching and smashing by using your pace and placing the ball in an inconvenient spot. Their play style is almost solely dictated by an aggressive, close to the table game that is flat and fast. They also can not generate nearly as much spin as in inverted rubber. Essentially, they are looking to completely set the tempo. They will block you around until they get a weak return which they will then smash.

Because of the lack of spin, they will generally serve long. This will also generally warrant a long return back, which they can then attack. The serves will also usually be out wide, making you move outside of the table and putting you in an uncomfortable position which can be exposed. The way to handle this is to hit slower, spinny balls rather than something ridiculously fast. It will give you more time, and give them less pace to work with. Short pimples tend to excel when the ball has lower amounts of spin as well.

Also, due to the lack of spin, their shots will generally skim or float opposed to kicking up, so just be mindful of that. Don't expect much spin on their receives either, compared to regular rubbers. If you serve heavy backspin and they push, expect a more dead ball with a moderate-light amount of backspin, depending on the pimple and the push itself. Keep in mind that since there is far less spin, pimples tend to do quite badly away from the table because they can't generate the topspin to ensure safety over the net and onto the table.

As soon as you try to play fast, you're just asking for it to go badly. It's like playing against a wall, but one that can hit fast, and put it in places you don't want it. Hitting as hard as you can into the short pimples doesn't really bother the player. You need to either use slower balls with more spin or attack hard to wide angles or right into their body. You cannot just play to the wings.

You should also try to play more long. A long serve of push forces them away from the table, which is where they are at a disadvantage. Try pushing long and see if they can drive the ball. If not, they will often be forced into a push which you can then attack.

Depending on the player and grip, if they have an inverted rubber, try attacking that. It may be beneficial as they may be very good with their pimples and not as good with their inverted rubber. 

As with playing against pimples, try to get out there and play against them as much as you can and implement the right tactics. You'll be good at playing them eventually.

Precisely. Very good description, I felt like you´re telling about my game.
A lot of players don´t have a clue on how to play against me due to my SP penhold style. A lot of them are much younger and have more solid technics but can´t beat me. Because they always try to play a fast game looping from mid-distance, exactly what they do against other shakehand players.
But some of my training partners already know my game and are developing tactics against my SP. Something I struggle against is when they wrong-foot me with their loops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nasche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by heplayslikearobot heplayslikearobot wrote:

Because of the lack of spin, they will generally serve long. This will also generally warrant a long return back, which they can then attack. The serves will also usually be out wide, making you move outside of the table and putting you in an uncomfortable position which can be exposed. The way to handle this is to hit slower, spinny balls rather than something ridiculously fast. It will give you more time, and give them less pace to work with. Short pimples tend to excel when the ball has lower amounts of spin as well.
You are pretty much describing the match. I had success with those slow and spinny balls, but it was not easy to hit them against his regular somewhat dead balls. I use hard rubbers and with a bit more contact I was sending balls long.


Originally posted by heplayslikearobot heplayslikearobot wrote:


Also, due to the lack of spin, their shots will generally skim or float opposed to kicking up, so just be mindful of that. Don't expect much spin on their receives either, compared to regular rubbers. If you serve heavy backspin and they push, expect a more dead ball with a moderate-light amount of backspin, depending on the pimple and the push itself.
I had a tough time with the former, I found myself out of position a lot of times reaching the ball ahead of me.
The latter made me push a few balls higher than expected and he was hitting those balls to kill points and the balls I blocked went to the net, I should have used an open angle blocking these balls.


Originally posted by heplayslikearobot heplayslikearobot wrote:


Try pushing long and see if they can drive the ball.
He could drive/loop the ball. The topspin was weak and trying to block it I sent balls to the net or a bit high so he was able to attack my return. I felt like the best solution was attack his wimpy topspin, but the tempo on my backhand was screwed by those atypical balls and he went away from my FH as much as he could. I was scouted for sure because I beat another guy from his club in the previous round and another one in other tournament about a month ago where I've used a Jpen blade so he probably knew that I have a so much stronger forehand.


Originally posted by heplayslikearobot heplayslikearobot wrote:

As with playing against pimples, try to get out there and play against them as much as you can and implement the right tactics. You'll be good at playing them eventually.
Thank you about the tips, very informative post. I know in this case it was not just about skills, but also about a lack of clue about what to do, the best way to hit the ball and how I should position myself because the ball was not coming where I expected it of the bounce.



Edited by Nasche - 06/20/2016 at 9:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/20/2016 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

I play with a sp player. He serves long to the corner, does not toss ball before serving, and serves when you are not ready.

It is a good idea to loop more vertically than forwardly. 
so all short pips players cheat

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2016 at 12:03am
I'm actually quite surprised at all of these comments. 

Where I play, there are a lot of forehand short pip pen hold users. I actually struggled a lot with them, but recently I've been doing a lot better.

I found that for me, it really helped to think about attacking every short pips return by pushing the ball more forward than upwards.

I felt like my problem was that the short pips took so much pace away from the ball. So I ended up missing a lot of the balls because I couldn't reach them. Finishing my strokes more forward them upwards really helped me get that extra reach to the balls.

This probably isn't the ideal way to deal with it, and there are probably a lot of better ways, but personally for me this way of thinking really got me more comfortable with SP players.

Maybe it'll work for you, too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bilbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2016 at 11:51am
I've only used pips for about 9 months so far and one of the things I found difficult to return is mid-distance, mid-speed with little bit of spin (doesn't matter if it's back or side spin) serves to my backhand side.  I've had matches which I am winning or doing well at until the opposing player's coach tells them to do this particular serve.  I would have no problem lightly flipping or driving it back on to the table, but since it's weak, the opposing players would just start attacking on it.  Part of the problem could be my stance as well since it's quite forehand-oriented, so it's takes that extra split second for me to switch to my backhand on returns which in turn makes me unable to have enough time to load up for a stronger backhand drive.  I've thought about this for a long time, I really have no way of returning these better unless I move to use my forehand or change my stance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote louielouie62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2016 at 3:39pm
I played an opponent with SP at a tournament just three weeks ago! He was sweeping the floor with me! I tried every type of heavy spin I could use, trying to force MY GAME on him to no avail! He was up two games to none on me when I realized he was playing/receiving close to the table on center and every time I went to the wings he would SLAP the ball to my opposite out of position side! But I was on to him at the beginning of the third game! Started serving heavy deep topspin to his body and I purposefully kept the ball going to his body and not the wings. End result: A most gratifying COMEBACK!! I went on to win the next three games all because of the most simple serve! Heavy deep topspin to the body!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote simon_xuan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/21/2016 at 3:59pm
[/QUOTE]

Who is the lefty?
[/QUOTE]
According to the title and host introduction, the lefty is from Seattle's TT club, not very familiar with her. But her beating of Lily Zhang is a feat. (Wang Bo SPTTC - Washington)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 4:52am
Just switch back to your penhold style. As a shakehand player you don't have the advantage you've enjoyed before. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nasche Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 6:36am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Just switch back to your penhold style. As a shakehand player you don't have the advantage you've enjoyed before. 


I'm about to switch back, but just for a while because my elbow is hurting and I'm not willing to stop playing at this moment. The Jpen BH stroke is a lot easier on the elbow and I hope it will allow me to heal the elbow without completely stopping my TT activities.

Overall at my age playing shakehand feels more compatible with my stamina level
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heplayslikearobot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 11:32am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

 
Precisely. Very good description, I felt like you´re telling about my game.
A lot of players don´t have a clue on how to play against me due to my SP penhold style. A lot of them are much younger and have more solid technics but can´t beat me. Because they always try to play a fast game looping from mid-distance, exactly what they do against other shakehand players.
But some of my training partners already know my game and are developing tactics against my SP. Something I struggle against is when they wrong-foot me with their loops.

Maybe that's because I am. Wink But yeah, I find younger players seem to struggle with pimples a bit more than other players do. Also a lot of players just try to power through everything and someone with pimples can just come in and destroy them. That's why the Chinese players had such an easy time against He Zhi Wen (compared to everyone else). They were anticipating, moving and playing smart. That's really how you have to play all pimples, and table tennis in general.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote heplayslikearobot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/22/2016 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Nasche Nasche wrote:


Thank you about the tips, very informative post. I know in this case it was not just about skills, but also about a lack of clue about what to do, the best way to hit the ball and how I should position myself because the ball was not coming where I expected it of the bounce.

No worries! Go kick some pimples' ass!




Edited by heplayslikearobot - 06/22/2016 at 11:35am
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