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Nexy Karis M and M+ reviews

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 1:37pm
I have used Rakza X and Rakza X soft.  That's why I am asking my question.

I was pretty surprised that Baal liked Karis, to be honest, but it seems that what stood out for me with Karis also had value to him.  I can see why it might lack value to a player who is essentially in need of short stroke speed and spin (in which case, there is always the Tenergy series or one of many ESN variants).

I never felt that way when using Razka X.  And it wasn't that I needed a faster blade for Karis as I Was mostly beating people I beat and losing to people I lost to - I was still playing at 2000 level with Karis and my old Yasaka Extra.  I just realized that I could clearly use one as I understood what the rubber was doing.  No, it's not just a speed thing, but a connection of thought and action.

The first time I used Karis M+ on a faster blade, I used it on an Innerforce ALC.  A 2200+ player I beat for the first time in over a year said I had gone to a slower blade.  Obviously I hadn't.  But what he found interesting was that I wasn't putting his spinniest loops into the sky and off the table.  He thought I might be using a Chinese rubber but as I have said elsewhere, I don't have the stroke for those things or I would use them.  So no, Karis is not a slow rubber.  And if I am trying to spin, I am not that concerned about speed usually.  It's just that why should you give up the opportunity to add more speed when you have that much control?  

I played with a Garaydia ZLC for the first time the past two days.  I was able to play at the same level with Karis with it that I do with other blades.  The balls were faster, but I never felt I was confused as to what was happening when I missed the ball long or failed to get arc.  I don't remember making shots like this with any carbon blade before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKrMIR-YSY&feature=youtu.be&t=2390
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 1:51pm
rocketman222, Donic Blue destroyed my TB-ALC about a year ago. Be careful with that glue. I would recommend other glues recommended by regulars here (like Vario Clean or Finezip).

NL: no, I have not tried Karis. But I get de-sensitized by some who proclaim whatever they use currently is the bestest and the greatest (whether it is Baracuda, Hexer, MX-S, T05 or Big Dipper or whatever else is new).

However, in today's day and age of $30 new-gen Tensors that are, frankly, pretty good, I find it difficult to pony up $50 + shipping.

So, my not trying Karis is not because it would not be a good rubber (I believe in Baal's recommendations). I am hesitant to pay the premium cost though.

Either ways, I am a Nexy supporter - they fill a void and I like their marketing style that is penetrative without being expensive. My suggestion is to price it similarly to their competition - if I can buy 4 new-gen Tensors for $30 each, I hope that we all should be able to buy 4 Karis for the same price. 

Same for the blades - I love where Donic priced their Ovtcharov True Carbon and also their 'WC89 series. I hope Nexy follows suit.


Edited by slevin - 01/20/2017 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 2:08pm
Does any of the testers have a Karis they are not using and wouldn't mind sending to me for more testing? I will gladly pay S&H...

I just don't want to pay $50 for yet another rubber which is yet again recommended to me by tons of people on the forum - main issue here of course is that I don't play like all of you guys (and you don't play like I do) so the new rubbers I try are all fine but after a few sessions with them I usually understand they are not that much different (for me) from rubber A that I have already tried or rubber B that I already have and like etc.

Or - what also happens quite often - they could be playing very nice and even better than my regular rubber in 70-80% of the strokes but let me down (perhaps just a bit) for 20-30%. For me that is, alas, not good - I'd rather have rubber which plays slightly worse "on average" but never lets me down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Does any of the testers have a Karis they are not using and wouldn't mind sending to me for more testing? I will gladly pay S&H...

I just don't want to pay $50 for yet another rubber which is yet again recommended to me by tons of people on the forum - main issue here of course is that I don't play like all of you guys (and you don't play like I do) so the new rubbers I try are all fine but after a few sessions with them I usually understand they are not that much different (for me) from rubber A that I have already tried or rubber B that I already have and like etc.

Or - what also happens quite often - they could be playing very nice and even better than my regular rubber in 70-80% of the strokes but let me down (perhaps just a bit) for 20-30%. For me that is, alas, not good - I'd rather have rubber which plays slightly worse "on average" but never lets me down.
the bold part of your last sentence is what all people seem to praise Karis M about and that's why I am so interested in Karis M.


I am just saying that this could be subjective as well. But it could be true in this case, who knows...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

rocketman222, Donic Blue destroyed my TB-ALC about a year ago. Be careful with that glue. I would recommend other glues recommended by regulars here (like Vario Clean or Finezip).

NL: no, I have not tried Karis. But I get de-sensitized by some who proclaim whatever they use currently is the bestest and the greatest (whether it is Baracuda, Hexer, MX-S, T05 or Big Dipper or whatever else is new).

However, in today's day and age of $30 new-gen Tensors that are, frankly, pretty good, I find it difficult to pony up $50 + shipping.

So, my not trying Karis is not because it would not be a good rubber (I believe in Baal's recommendations). I am hesitant to pay the premium cost though.

Either ways, I am a Nexy supporter - they fill a void and I like their marketing style that is penetrative without being expensive. My suggestion is to price it similarly to their competition - if I can buy 4 new-gen Tensors for $30 each, I hope that we all should be able to buy 4 Karis for the same price. 

Same for the blades - I love where Donic priced their Ovtcharov True Carbon and also their 'WC89 series. I hope Nexy follows suit.

Sigh - so my criticism of your EJing without your disclosing your level to keep context really gets to you so much that you describe my EJing that way?  Oh, well...  

I think I do a fairly good job describing the rubber accurately at my level.  I liked the rubbers you listed enough to switch to them, but I never considered them the bestest and often described them in terms of the particular problem I was trying to solve vs the prior rubber I used.  There are lots of other rubbers that I give good, objective or invisible reviews without ever switching to them or talking about my switching to them : EL-S, FX-S, EL-P, OVT,  Rakza X, Rakza X Soft, Donic Bluefire, Rasant Grip etc.

Personal attacks and other motivations aside, if you want a slightly lower price with first class mail or a drive by delivery, you can PM me.

KAris claims to be innovative and prices itself in the same range as Airoc and Regalis Blue - I think you as a freemarket advocate supports people pricing and getting rewarded freely.  If they just piggybacked on another ESN derivative, I would get your POV though.


Edited by NextLevel - 01/20/2017 at 2:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

rocketman222, Donic Blue destroyed my TB-ALC about a year ago. Be careful with that glue.


For sure! It can shred a koto surface. Happened to me.

By the way the only thing I previously raved about for a relatively new and not yet well known product was XSF balls. I am not a bangwagen reviewer. Obviously I like Viscaria blades too but not a rare point of view.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 3:35pm
NL:

re: Karis - IMO, it is good if Karis represents another type of rubber besides the ones that we have that can mostly be categorized into 4 kinds {(1) Mark V - like or slightly souped up, (2) Tenergy (3) new-gen ESN variants and (4) Chinese}.

As I said, I like Nexy - I sometimes like his thought process and have tried out his blades in the past. I just don't think I need to try an alternative to types 2 and 3 from the list above as they work for me (as they do for a vast majority of the populace).

re: my EJism - 
  • Don't confuse equipment trials with what I use (which has been stable for 6 months and hopefully shall be for another 6)
  • My goals over the last couple of years have been different than yours. Your arthritis may allow you to practice and play tournaments. My CRPS does not. I play once or twice a week in leagues only after undergoing intensive physical therapy that day and many times, morning Stellate Ganglion Blocks. 
  • EJism did not hamper my goal in 2015 & 2016 (which was simply to get to the club) in any way, so I don't take heed to any inappropriate criticism at all. At the moment, league ratings indicate my level with CRPS to oscillate from 1800 to 1950 depending on the day. However, once I beat CRPS / RSD, goal changes and so shall any equipment trial interest. Then, no one shall be keener than I regarding level. But until then, pardon me, but I shall persist. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

NL:

re: Karis - IMO, it is good if Karis represents another type of rubber besides the ones that we have that can mostly be categorized into 4 kinds {(1) Mark V - like or slightly souped up, (2) Tenergy (3) new-gen ESN variants and (4) Chinese}.

As I said, I like Nexy - I sometimes like his thought process and have tried out his blades in the past. I just don't think I need to try an alternative to types 2 and 3 from the list above as they work for me (as they do for a vast majority of the populace).

re: my EJism - 
  • Don't confuse equipment trials with what I use (which has been stable for 6 months and hopefully shall be for another 6)
  • My goals over the last couple of years have been different than yours. Your arthritis may allow you to practice and play tournaments. My CRPS does not. I play once or twice a week in leagues only after undergoing intensive physical therapy that day and many times, morning Stellate Ganglion Blocks. 
  • EJism did not hamper my goal in 2015 & 2016 (which was simply to get to the club) in any way, so I don't take heed to any inappropriate criticism at all. At the moment, league ratings indicate my level with CRPS to oscillate from 1800 to 1950 depending on the day. However, once I beat CRPS / RSD, goal changes and so shall any equipment trial interest. Then, no one shall be keener than I regarding level. But until then, pardon me, but I shall persist. 


SLevin, you need to somehow try and fall in love with Karis, so you can sell me your tenergy 05 at throwaway price, just kidding :)

Guys we are all the same level pretty much, amateurs who like different equipment and its one of the things that keeps us interested in the game, there is always something new to try just for kicks. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

NL:

re: Karis - IMO, it is good if Karis represents another type of rubber besides the ones that we have that can mostly be categorized into 4 kinds {(1) Mark V - like or slightly souped up, (2) Tenergy (3) new-gen ESN variants and (4) Chinese}.

As I said, I like Nexy - I sometimes like his thought process and have tried out his blades in the past. I just don't think I need to try an alternative to types 2 and 3 from the list above as they work for me (as they do for a vast majority of the populace).

re: my EJism - 
  • Don't confuse equipment trials with what I use (which has been stable for 6 months and hopefully shall be for another 6)
  • My goals over the last couple of years have been different than yours. Your arthritis may allow you to practice and play tournaments. My CRPS does not. I play once or twice a week in leagues only after undergoing intensive physical therapy that day and many times, morning Stellate Ganglion Blocks. 
  • EJism did not hamper my goal in 2015 & 2016 (which was simply to get to the club) in any way, so I don't take heed to any inappropriate criticism at all. At the moment, league ratings indicate my level with CRPS to oscillate from 1800 to 1950 depending on the day. However, once I beat CRPS / RSD, goal changes and so shall any equipment trial interest. Then, no one shall be keener than I regarding level. But until then, pardon me, but I shall persist. 


Understood.  You are a family man at a different stage in life so your perspective is a little different from a single man like myself.  Some people say I should not play with my arthritis at all, at least competitively.  It all comes down to priorities and probably ignoring what one knows will inevitably result, but my point on this issue is always the same - I am against people discussing equipment on forums without hinting at their level close to their statements.  It is good to know that you keep your equipment stable.  I have met a few people who would consider you 2200+ based on your forum comments and are surprised when I tell them that you play at their level or in some cases lower.  Maybe if you stated your level and goals next to your statements more often, such misconceptions would not occur as often?

As for Nexy Karis, where would you class Calibra and Airoc in your scheme?  Group 1?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 4:41pm
I have been playing TT since I was 10 years old, and am in late middle age now. 

I can confidently state that Karis is qualitatively different from any of the rubbers in slevin's four categories.  It is a different animal


I am most certain about his categories 2-4.  On those, there is no question about it. Karis is qualitatively different from any of those.  I am not much of an EJ but I used T05 for a decade, the only other rubber I spent any significant time with during that decade is MX-P (although I have on rare occasions purchased things like Bluefire, and EL-P and my only reason being because of Tenergy prices; and other ESN and Stiga rubbers that I bought for the most part I disliked immediately). Also the guy who coaches me uses Hurricane on a Viscaria, and I have tried his blade quite a few times (and have no clue how you would play with that stuff).  So you can take what I say about comparing  those rubbers to Karis with confidence.  (1) I am familiar with the rubbers.  (2) I am not a chronic EJ constantly raving about what I tried this week.  To the contrary.  I am very picky.  Most of the rubber I tried during my T05 decade ended up given away or in a drawer.   

My only hesitation about SLevin's category 1 (Mark V) is that my memory of what that rubber is like may be dimmed by passage of a lot of time.  However, I strongly suspect that unless you speed glue it (and maybe even then), it won't be much like Karis.  Certainly not if I am remembering correctly.   Among other things, the topsheet structure pretty much guarantees that it has to be.  Somebody else will have to confirm or deny that because one thing for sure is I am not going to put unglued Mark V on one of my blades.

I am completely indifferent as to what rubber other people want to use, but I like Karis a LOT, enough to want to tell people about it. 

Again, the last time I really promoted something this strongly was XSF seamless balls, which I emphasize I did at a time when (based on earlier prototypes) everyone including me expected them to be God-awful terrible, and nobody wanted to try them; and everybody (including me) anticipated that Chinese seamed 40+ balls would be the best.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 4:43pm
Also, there are actually some other categories of rubber not in Slevin's list.  Calibra family, to name just one.  Spinart.  Others.  Karis is not like those either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also, there are actually some other categories of rubber not in Slevin's list.  Calibra family, to name just one.  Spinart.  Others.  Karis is not like those either.

I'm waiting until next week to comment on Karis in any depth (only 2 hours so far), but the rubber it's closest to from my back catalog is Airoc.  I haven't tried some of the more recent rubbers from the same factory though (ITC, Regalis) - they may be closer again.  But it's closer to Airoc than any ESN, or Butterfly, or pre-glue-ban classic, or chinese rubber.

However, the comparison with Airoc is mostly centred around the sponge and lack of catapult (i.e. linearity).  Good qualities to share.  Karis' topsheet is much, much better in almost every way than Airoc IMO.  It's more like the rubber I hoped Airoc would be when yogi mentioned that it was going to use the Calibra topsheet.  Again - it isn't the Calibra topsheet either, but it fixes so many problems I had with Airoc's topsheet that it becomes something else.

I don't think it's revolutionary or the second coming, but it's a really honest, sensible evolution of something like an Airoc, pushed more towards the middle of the market where amateur players want a bit of everything without rough edges or extreme behaviour.  If you've tried Airoc and liked it, but found the topsheet lacking in grip in comparison with other rubbers, Karis is definitely worth a look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 5:20pm
Andy added something useful, I have not tried any other rubber from this factory (certainy not Airoc, or any TSP).  So his comment is quite interesting.

I will add, though, that the pip structure of Karis is absolutely unique, and according to the designer, that is one of the main differences between Karis and everything else.  I love the grip of Karis, by the way, especially in humidity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 5:21pm
Is there anyone who has used both Elpis and Karis and would like to do a comparison?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 5:24pm
AndySmith,

I hear its closer to Airoc Astro than Airoc.  But you were one of the few who took Airoc seriously.  Pingpongholic who tried BH-Man's sheet said that it was like Airoc to him.  And since I have never tried Airoc or Regalis, I pointed out that it might be like these rubbers.

But while it is not revolutionary or the second coming to you since you always ducked Tenergy for more controllable stuff even when it wasn't as spinny, it might be to people who may not even realize how much they are struggling with the non-linear behavior of other rubbers because they want to keep the spin.  The traditional solution for some people is to go Chinese or traditional - I prefer this, because the level of spin is competitive with what I am used to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Andy added something useful, I have not tried any other rubber from this factory (certainy not Airoc, or any TSP).  So his comment is quite interesting.

I will add, though, that the pip structure of Karis is absolutely unique, and according to the designer, that is one of the main differences between Karis and everything else.  I love the grip of Karis, by the way, especially in humidity.

I will take a picture of Nittaku Narucross GS Soft for you sometime.  The pip structure is different, but the thin topsheet is similar.


Edited by NextLevel - 01/20/2017 at 5:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onehander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 5:34pm
Andy,  so in your opinion Karis is closest to Airoc.  And the sponges are both very linear.  

My experience with Airoc Astro S was that it had great catapult and acted similar to FX-P 
in regards to the sponge.  Can I safely conclude that Airoc and Airoc Astro are completely 
opposites in regards to their sponge (Airoc being linear and Airoc Astro being more like Tenergy)?  

Also, how would you compare Karis to Tibhar Hybrid K1?  Hybrid K1 is also has a very linear sponge 
with a more elastic feel and non-tacky top sheet compared to typical Chinese rubber.

Thanks for your valuable opinions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

AndySmith,

I hear its closer to Airoc Astro than Airoc.  But you were one of the few who took Airoc seriously.  Pingpongholic who tried BH-Man's sheet said that it was like Airoc to him.  And since I have never tried Airoc or Regalis, I pointed out that it might be like these rubbers.

But while it is not revolutionary or the second coming to you since you always ducked Tenergy for more controllable stuff even when it wasn't as spinny, it might be to people who may not even realize how much they are struggling with the non-linear behavior of other rubbers because they want to keep the spin.  The traditional solution for some people is to go Chinese or traditional - I prefer this, because the level of spin is competitive with what I am used to.

About Astro - possibly.  I've only used Astro S in a bonkers 2.3mm sponge version and really didn't like it at the time, but I don't think my time with that one is worth the comparison from me.  

When I say it isn't revolutionary, I mean it isn't some enormous leap forward in the industry, or a brand new paradigm of wonderfulness.  What it seems to me to be (so far, anyway) is a very cleverly designed package which moves into a space in the market where there hasn't been a lot of activity or focus in recent years.  It isn't quite in a class of its own, but it isn't far off.  There have been a lot of "mild" ESN rubbers recently with more on the way, but I still feel that karis is more stable than the ones I've tried in that group (although it's also more expensive also).

If all you've used is extreme rubbers at the far end of one spectrum or another (spin for tenergy, speed for take-your-pick, etc) then Karis will feel...different for sure.  I'd be cautious about a blanket recommendation to tenergy/mx-p users because so many players seem to rely on the easy spin or large catapult the market leaders offer, and aren't prepared to sacrifice them for almost anything.  Even if they would play better with it, objectively.

Originally posted by onehander onehander wrote:

Andy,  so in your opinion Karis is closest to Airoc.  And the sponges are both very linear. 

My experience with Airoc Astro S was that it had great catapult and acted similar to FX-P 
in regards to the sponge.  Can I safely conclude that Airoc and Airoc Astro are completely 
opposites in regards to their sponge (Airoc being linear and Airoc Astro being more like Tenergy)?  

Well, no.  As above, I've only used a super-thick Astro S for a very short period of time so I can't compare reliably.  And I haven't heard many people compare Astro to Tenergy...

Karis M is similar in terms of linearity to Airoc M.  The Airoc S versions were a lot softer and that brings all the usual soft sponge caveats, including more catapulty behaviour.  I'm glad there isn't a Karis S at this point.  Best to focus on the medium sponge versions for the purpose of this comparison.

Again, worth saying that the Karis topsheet is very different to Airoc's, and that's great.  I find Karis to be closest to Airoc when considering esn or butterfly as alternative comparisons, but the topsheet on karis moves it away from Airoc so much that you shouldn't expect it to be a slight variation on the Airoc theme.  It's makes a big difference.  I'd have Karis over Airoc any day of the week, and I'm not an Airoc basher in particular.

Originally posted by onehander onehander wrote:

Also, how would you compare Karis to Tibhar Hybrid K1?  Hybrid K1 is also has a very linear sponge 
with a more elastic feel and non-tacky top sheet compared to typical Chinese rubber.

K1's topsheet is semi-tacky - definitely not non-tacky.  Just less tacky than typical chinese, sure.

Honestly, I don't want to get too dragged in to loads of comparisons at this stage.  I really want to try Karis on a wider range of blades and to give it more time.  But!  K1 is actually an interesting one to ask about because it sits in the same general zone as karis, but arrives there by different means.  The overall speeds are pretty similar, but K1's tack keeps the low-end speed a bit lower.  K1 brush loops better (as you'd expect), and maybe it has the edge on spin on hard loops too.  Karis is better almost everywhere else though, and is easier to use.  Karis is also more linear overall and just by being non-tacky brings big advantages for smashing, driving, countering.  

Honestly, the ease at which you can totally dominate other players who give you spinny, but high, balls with Karis makes you want to laugh.  I can't think of another rubber where you can just put those balls away without fear, without making noticeable sacrifices in other areas (the topsheet grip mainly).  Take Calibra Tour for example - you barely feel incoming spin with that, so hitting through spinny, high loops is a lot easier than super-reactive tenergy types.  But then you come to loop yourself and it's like anti in some respects - it demands a lot of your timing, positioning.  Karis hits a sweet spot where hitting through spin is far easier than it should be based on how spinny it is when you're putting your own on.

NextLevel's early comparison with the original Rhyzm is a good one.  Not so much in terms of feel, or overall speed, or catapult, but in how you use it, and the balance it can bring to your game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 7:20pm
I agree with nearly everytbing Andy said  except one thing.  i actually think Karis is a paradigm shift because of the structure and behavior of the topsheet, primarily the pips. 

Of course what to me seems important could seem less so to other people.  I attach great importance to it, more than Andy, and personally think is is every bit as innovative as Tenergy sponge was in 2008. 

I would be very curious to know how a really high level player reacted to it.  I thought at first it might be something ideal for the 1800 to 2200 range.  The more I use it the more I suspect that some much much higher players might also see value to it, maybe even more than me, since their technique is never lazy.

Anyway, I am glad about Next Level's comments that made me curious enough to try it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 7:39pm
AndySmith,

I hesitated to recommend it to Tenergy users for exactly the reason you gave despite being a Tenergy user myself just before switching to it.  Baal's review did pleasantly surprise me though.  I am not so much concerned with whether anyone likes it or not - I am more concerned with whether they get the same feeling of linear control that people coming to it from Tenergy experience, especially if they were not Tenergy users before coming to Karis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 9:06pm
Here are some more comparisons emphasizing feel and resulting mindset.

I have always disliked Hurricane.  I know it is good rubber and great players use it  (actually the world's greatest players) but I grew up on Japanese rubbers and I've used Tenergy for a decade and the European rubbers I have used are designed for players who like Tenergy.  I never could play with Hurricane.  My dislike for it is so intense that after about 1-3 minutes of hitting with it, I just want to give the borrowed blade back and return to my own.  Or run away screaming.  That is true even when the Hurricane is on the same kind of blade that I use.  It doesn't matter if it's boosted or not.  I still don't like hate Hurricane.  I get that feeling every time.  I suppose in the fullness of time I could remake my strokes and anticipation enough to eventually play with Hurricane.  I just don't want to do it.  It would not be fun for me, and it would take a long time.  

Karis didn't have anything like that effect on me

It was clearly a Japanese product.  I would say it was liking listening to Italian or Spanish if you speak French.  You don't fully understand it, but you know it won't take long to figure it out.  By contrast, Chinese rubbers to me are like, well Chinese if you speak English or French.  You kind of know you are never going to get there (that analogy comes to mind because my wife is Chinese, and I really ought to be able to speak a bit more than the handful of polite phrases that I have learned by rote, but my Lord, the effort it would require!).  

Coming from Tenergy or ESN products designed to compete with Tenergy, Karis will feel just fine once you figure out you need to open your racket angle just a little more and relax just a little bit.  And you will figure that out within the first five minutes or less.  It will become very comfortable and intuitive in the first week, or less.  And you will feel invincible, as if your opponent is going to have to put the ball somewhere where you can't get your rubber cleanly on the ball.  Because if you don't mis-hit the ball, you just know it will land on the table, maybe not the greatest shot but on the table.  Anyway, that is how it will feel.  Of course you will still occasionally be overwhelmed, but it will surprise you when it happens.  And with decent relaxed body rotation, you will be able to rip with all the power you need.  I actually don't think it is at all slow at the top end.  Also if your opponent gives slow or weak topspin that you can get to, that ball is toast.  In other words, you will feel like your opponent has to hit winners.  

You will pity the fool.

Karis will put your mind at ease.  It will free you up to think about tactics and such.

Compared to classic rubbers like Sriver?  Last time I hit with some of that minus speed glue, a couple of years ago, it just felt dead.  Predictably dead, and predictability is good, but dead, is... well... not alive.  To me Karis is not dead.  I did not want to rip it off my blade within the first minute.  Or the second.  Or after a week.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 9:22pm
i tried m and m+ to me they feel close to bluefire 
not the new ones the original bluefire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

i tried m and m+ to me they feel close to bluefire 
not the new ones the original bluefire


How about the weight of Karis? Is it heavy? how much does the cut rubber weigh - did anyone check that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VictorK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


My only hesitation about SLevin's category 1 (Mark V) is that my memory of what that rubber is like may be dimmed by passage of a lot of time.  However, I strongly suspect that unless you speed glue it (and maybe even then), it won't be much like Karis.  Certainly not if I am remembering correctly.   Among other things, the topsheet structure pretty much guarantees that it has to be.  Somebody else will have to confirm or deny that because one thing for sure is I am not going to put unglued Mark V on one of my blades.

It was I who brought the comparison to lightly glued Mark V, even though (as I disclosed) it's been very long time since I used Mark V and my recollections are vague.  I also realize, that comparisons like this are quite subjective, so perhaps others might feel differently.

However, I will still stand by that comparison because when I played with a glued Mark V it was the last time I used a rubber that was that versatile, linear, controllable (in short game and away from the table), predictable, spinny enough,  and fast enough for me ... which resulted in a feeling that I knew exactly what was going on with almost every shot I hit or mishit.   Oh, another rubber that comes to mind when I had somewhat similar feeling of control was glued Stiga Mendo MP, though MP was meaningfully faster than Mark V, if I recall correctly.

It is very likely that Karis has a totally different sponge, pip structure, topsheet material, etc.  I don't know much about this kind of stuff - I rely mostly how the rubber feels to me and how it behaves when play with it.   

My opinions are based on playing with M+ on FH and M on BH for about a month, or between 45 and 50 hours of total play on the same blade - Nexy Calix II.  I'm an experienced, aging (LOL) but still a decent level player, who doesn't believe that equipment meaningfully affects my level of play, though it definitely has a meaningful impact on my level of enjoyment ... and I enjoy Karis quite a bit.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sspark80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also, there are actually some other categories of rubber not in Slevin's list.  Calibra family, to name just one.  Spinart.  Others.  Karis is not like those either.

I'm waiting until next week to comment on Karis in any depth (only 2 hours so far), but the rubber it's closest to from my back catalog is Airoc.  I haven't tried some of the more recent rubbers from the same factory though (ITC, Regalis) - they may be closer again.  But it's closer to Airoc than any ESN, or Butterfly, or pre-glue-ban classic, or chinese rubber.

However, the comparison with Airoc is mostly centred around the sponge and lack of catapult (i.e. linearity).  Good qualities to share.  Karis' topsheet is much, much better in almost every way than Airoc IMO.  It's more like the rubber I hoped Airoc would be when yogi mentioned that it was going to use the Calibra topsheet.  Again - it isn't the Calibra topsheet either, but it fixes so many problems I had with Airoc's topsheet that it becomes something else.

I don't think it's revolutionary or the second coming, but it's a really honest, sensible evolution of something like an Airoc, pushed more towards the middle of the market where amateur players want a bit of everything without rough edges or extreme behaviour.  If you've tried Airoc and liked it, but found the topsheet lacking in grip in comparison with other rubbers, Karis is definitely worth a look.

 
Hi, Andy.  Karis sounds like a very interesting rubber.  I know you don't want to say a lot in the way of comparisons to other rubbers right now, but at some point I'd be interested to hear how Karis M plays compared to Omega 5 Asia, another rubber you've used with good topsheet grip and linear behavior.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2017 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by sspark80 sspark80 wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also, there are actually some other categories of rubber not in Slevin's list.  Calibra family, to name just one.  Spinart.  Others.  Karis is not like those either.


I'm waiting until next week to comment on Karis in any depth (only 2 hours so far), but the rubber it's closest to from my back catalog is Airoc.  I haven't tried some of the more recent rubbers from the same factory though (ITC, Regalis) - they may be closer again.  But it's closer to Airoc than any ESN, or Butterfly, or pre-glue-ban classic, or chinese rubber.

However, the comparison with Airoc is mostly centred around the sponge and lack of catapult (i.e. linearity).  Good qualities to share.  Karis' topsheet is much, much better in almost every way than Airoc IMO.  It's more like the rubber I hoped Airoc would be when yogi mentioned that it was going to use the Calibra topsheet.  Again - it isn't the Calibra topsheet either, but it fixes so many problems I had with Airoc's topsheet that it becomes something else.

I don't think it's revolutionary or the second coming, but it's a really honest, sensible evolution of something like an Airoc, pushed more towards the middle of the market where amateur players want a bit of everything without rough edges or extreme behaviour.  If you've tried Airoc and liked it, but found the topsheet lacking in grip in comparison with other rubbers, Karis is definitely worth a look.

 
Hi, Andy.  Karis sounds like a very interesting rubber.  I know you don't want to say a lot in the way of comparisons to other rubbers right now, but at some point I'd be interested to hear how Karis M plays compared to Omega 5 Asia, another rubber you've used with good topsheet grip and linear behavior.


I can answer that. OVAL is hard sponged and that makes the effort level on aggressive strokes much higher. It is also much more spin sensitive. The soft top sheet makes it spinnier than Karis with a potentially higher top end but just about worse in every other way.

Edited by NextLevel - 01/21/2017 at 12:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 12:34am
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

i tried m and m+ to me they feel close to bluefire 
not the new ones the original bluefire


Hmm.  I dont get that feel at all.  To me M1 and M2 and MX-P have a lot in common.  Great rubbers, and quite interchangeable even though the three are obviously not identical. I might put MXP right between M1 and M2, but maybe a touch faster?  In any case to me they are much more non-linear than Karis IMHO.  Bouncier for sure.

I liked Bluefire but it aims at Tenergy and I think Karis is not designed to be like that at all.

Maybe different aspects of the feel are important to us?  Feel is pretty subective sometimes, even though it is also crucial
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 4:49am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I agree with nearly everytbing Andy said  except one thing.  i actually think Karis is a paradigm shift because of the structure and behavior of the topsheet, primarily the pips.  

Of course what to me seems important could seem less so to other people.  I attach great importance to it, more than Andy, and personally think is is every bit as innovative as Tenergy sponge was in 2008.  

Baal has gone big for karis here.  I've already said too much - I've only had one week with it.  But it says a lot that Baal - a loooong time tenergy user not prone to lose his mind over new toys - would say something like this.

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by sspark80 sspark80 wrote:

 
Hi, Andy.  Karis sounds like a very interesting rubber.  I know you don't want to say a lot in the way of comparisons to other rubbers right now, but at some point I'd be interested to hear how Karis M plays compared to Omega 5 Asia, another rubber you've used with good topsheet grip and linear behavior.


I can answer that. OVAL is hard sponged and that makes the effort level on aggressive strokes much higher. It is also much more spin sensitive. The soft top sheet makes it spinnier than Karis with a potentially higher top end but just about worse in every other way.

Yeah, I agree with NL's analysis but not 100% his conclusion because "worse" means different things to different people of course.  I love OVA and always struggle to find something that works better on my FH wing.  I had very low expectations that karis would be an option on my FH simply because I'm so used to OVA and what it does, and it might pan out that way in the end.

OVA's topsheet is one of the grippiest on the market and it supports a heavy brush loop.  As NL says, this makes it very spin sensitive as well, and this is a trade-off I can accept because OVA's hard sponge takes the edge off in most circumstances.  If OVA had a bouncier sponge, or more catapult, it would be too much for me to handle and I would have dropped it ages ago.

Karis M+ gets close to the sponge hardness of OVA, but the topsheet has less grip.  This makes it easier to use in lots of situations, but far less dangerous for the opponent on a brush loop.  The personal question for me is similar to that faced by many other eurojap users when thinking about karis - can I sacrifice the big thing I use and rely on in my current rubber, and trade it off against real-world performance and reduced errors?  I don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 8:02am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:


Yeah, I agree with NL's analysis but not 100% his conclusion because "worse" means different things to different people of course.  I love OVA and always struggle to find something that works better on my FH wing.  I had very low expectations that karis would be an option on my FH simply because I'm so used to OVA and what it does, and it might pan out that way in the end.

OVA's topsheet is one of the grippiest on the market and it supports a heavy brush loop.  As NL says, this makes it very spin sensitive as well, and this is a trade-off I can accept because OVA's hard sponge takes the edge off in most circumstances.  If OVA had a bouncier sponge, or more catapult, it would be too much for me to handle and I would have dropped it ages ago.

Karis M+ gets close to the sponge hardness of OVA, but the topsheet has less grip.  This makes it easier to use in lots of situations, but far less dangerous for the opponent on a brush loop.  The personal question for me is similar to that faced by many other eurojap users when thinking about karis - can I sacrifice the big thing I use and rely on in my current rubber, and trade it off against real-world performance and reduced errors?  I don't know.

Everyone has their personal preferences but for brush looping, OVA is not that much better than Karis M (not M+).   M+ is too fast. 


Edited by NextLevel - 01/21/2017 at 8:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sspark80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 8:17am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:


Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by sspark80 sspark80 wrote:

 
Hi, Andy.  Karis sounds like a very interesting rubber.  I know you don't want to say a lot in the way of comparisons to other rubbers right now, but at some point I'd be interested to hear how Karis M plays compared to Omega 5 Asia, another rubber you've used with good topsheet grip and linear behavior.


I can answer that. OVAL is hard sponged and that makes the effort level on aggressive strokes much higher. It is also much more spin sensitive. The soft top sheet makes it spinnier than Karis with a potentially higher top end but just about worse in every other way.

Yeah, I agree with NL's analysis but not 100% his conclusion because "worse" means different things to different people of course.  I love OVA and always struggle to find something that works better on my FH wing.  I had very low expectations that karis would be an option on my FH simply because I'm so used to OVA and what it does, and it might pan out that way in the end.

OVA's topsheet is one of the grippiest on the market and it supports a heavy brush loop.  As NL says, this makes it very spin sensitive as well, and this is a trade-off I can accept because OVA's hard sponge takes the edge off in most circumstances.  If OVA had a bouncier sponge, or more catapult, it would be too much for me to handle and I would have dropped it ages ago.

Karis M+ gets close to the sponge hardness of OVA, but the topsheet has less grip.  This makes it easier to use in lots of situations, but far less dangerous for the opponent on a brush loop.  The personal question for me is similar to that faced by many other eurojap users when thinking about karis - can I sacrifice the big thing I use and rely on in my current rubber, and trade it off against real-world performance and reduced errors?  I don't know.

Thanks, Next Level and Andy.  I bought OVA last year partially based on the reviews that both of you gave it.  I enjoyed the topsheet grip and the blocking and control on a lot of shots. But I used it for close to 5 months and could never completely feel comfortable with the hard sponge--Maybe because of what Next Level said about it requiring so much effort on hard strokes.
When it's time for me to purchase new rubbers, I will definitely consider Karis M.
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