Choppers don't need to die they need to change

With the plastic ball and with the lowering of spin and speed with it; many choppers have found it difficult to continue to play as effectively as they previously were playing with the celluloid ball. I propose that this doesn't need to be a death sentence for choppers. I believe that a change in mindset and possibly equipment is what is necessary at this point in time.

First, let's look at the previous ball change from 38mm to 40mm. During the era of the 38mm ball there were a large number or classic choppers. Relying almost purely on chopping with only occasionally attacking a very high ball. Towards the end of this era came Koji Matsushita, arguably the greatest chopper of the 20th century and in my opinion, capable of the best forehand chop in the history of the sport. Matushita's style, while still maintaining many aspects of classic defense, incorporated consistently much more offense than had previously been used in a defensive style. This paved the way for the modern defender that exists today.

This brought about Joo Saehyuk as a natural evolution. Joo Saehyuk was the greatest defender of the celluloid era without a doubt and arguably (and in my own opinion) the greatest defender of all time. What allowed him to be so noteworthy is his unparalleled versatility in the strokes he could produce. Attacks on both wings, a forehand as powerful as most of the best non-Chinese players, and chops as good as Matsushita's. The change to 40mm required this change to a more versatile and more offensive chopper. I am not saying that Joo Saehyuk is an offensive player with long pips on his backhand or that this type of change is necessary. I am only claiming that to play at a world top 10 level, the versatility displayed by Joo Saehyuk is what is required. There have been many other choppers with an offensive forehand (Weixing, Panagiotis, Filus, etc.) but none that could both chop and attack the way Joo Saehyuk could.

Now, with the transition to the plastic ball I think a further change within the style is necessary for a chopper to enter the world top 10. As demonstrated by the previous ball change; an increase in offense equaled success. The plastic ball is having a somewhat similar impact on the sport as the previous change in ball size. So I believe that a further increase in offense is required. To do so, I believe the pips used on the backhand side need to increase in friction. If long pips are to be maintained then something with no less grip than Feint Long 3/ Curl P4 should be used. However, I feel that even that is not enough. I think that if a new super chopper is to exist he will use short pips or possibly even inverted rubber.

I point to a quote by Joo Saehyuk himself saying "In my opinion, since the ball has been changed, short pips are better because you may put more variation with it". ( http://www.mhtabletennis.com/2015/10/the-worlds-best-modern-defence.html ) I feel that if Joo Saehyuk were 15 years or more younger, he would have trained with short pips and trained to be more aggressive and would be a top 10 player in this era rather than the previous. Yuto Muramatsu has come close, but I find that even though he is using the right equipment and has powerful attacks, he is still not offense enough and seems a bit inconsistent.

Honestly, I think that inverted rubber might be what's necessary even more so than short pips. Joo Saehyuk can use Tenergy 64 to forehand chop all day against the forehand attacks of the best Chinese players. Why can't it be done on both wings? Joanna Parker/Drinkhall made it to women's number 1 in England chopping with Tenergy 05 on both sides.

This is where I see the future of chopping moving assuming it doesn't die out before then. Rubber with higher friction than was commonly used in the past and with a push towards more offensive play on both wings. Maybe instead of the 75% defense/25% offense of Joo Saehyuk we might see it at 50/50 or 60/40 slightly favoring offense.

I've actually have made this my own style. I probably play at about 65ish percent offense depending on my opponent. I can never achieve a world class level of play but if someone could truly master that style of play I can see a new world top 10 player in the future.

I'd like to talk about this. I wouldn't be surprised if I have overlooked something either for or against this argument. What are your thoughts?

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?

Edited by zeio - 03/07/2017 at 9:57pm

zeio wrote: May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well. The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?

berndt_mann wrote: I was trained in the classic chopping/pickhitting countertopspining against chop style, but I'm inclined to believe that the chopper of the future who contends for a world championship going to have to be adept at looping both forehand and backhand and chopping with venom to set up a counterattack using inverted rubber both sides.  Here, GeneralSpecific, I agree with you.  I don't know if Tenergy 05 or Tenergy 64 might be effective as used by a chopper/two winged looper against an all out two winged (mostly forehand) looper.  I've only read about their characteristics from my latest Butterfly catalog and from what you all on MYTT say about that stuff.   But it does seem apparent to me that the chopmeister of the future is going to have to have a dangerous counterloop off of both wings as well as a chop with sufficient variation to force or elicit errors from an attacking opponent. Option No. 2:  Go to hard rubber or sandpaper.  Persuade the ITTF to do the same (but of course).

I'm not getting hung up on the specific types of inverted rubber. It could be anything, not specifically Tenergy. I only used Tenergy as an example.

Baal wrote: I think the next great chopper will be like JSH, that is to say, a monstrous forehand.  I don't think the BH rubber needs to change much.  I don't see anyone being able to chop effectively at world top 10 level with inverted or SP.  I could imagine a high friction LP, though. IN the modern era, there have not been many great defenders and they will always be a rare species because that is the only way they can thrive.

I can see what you're saying and I understand that asking for a top level version of that style is a tall order. However, Joo Saehyuk has proven with his forehand that he can chop the most powerful of loops with his fast inverted rubber while at the same time having said monstrous forehand. To put as simply as possible, if this player were to have both a backhand and forehand equal to Joo Saehyuk's forehand, we would see one of the greatest players to have ever participated in our sport.

It almost hurts to say this but Joo Saehyuk's backhand is his weakness. His attacks with it are impressive but he's mostly just using it to chop 99% of the time. This, is all while his forehand has such perfect balance between chopping and attacking has been unseen. If that could be carried over to the backhand it would be unreal.

Hans Regenkurt wrote: It is impossible for defenders to challenge attacking players. Unless the ITTF changes the long pip rule, every half defender will sink in rankings. The problem in my view is that long pips do not offer good control and are too sensitive to incoming speed with the plastic ball. They would not have enough disturbing effect anyway but at least they would help stay in the rally for a longer time. A strong forehand is indispensable for a defender.

In order to challenge them better I think it might be best to take some of the more venomous aspects of an attacking style and incorporate into the defensive chopping style. You can actually see some of it Ruwen Filus's backhand. Sometimes he will twiddle to his inverted and produce a really deadly backhand attack. I'm saying what if he didn't have to twiddle? What if he could do that at all distances and at any time while still being able to chop, much like Joo Saehyuk's inverted forehand but on both wings instead of one? I think that could pose a challenge to anyone.

Current defenders must have a monster FH and must be able to attack with the BH quiet frequently
-either by twiddling if they use a LP in BH
-or with the SP

I have always played defence with SP because it gives you the opportunity to attack and varying the spins more effectively, even when we played with real TT Balls, I mean 38mm celluloid ones.
But with the plastic ball era, it has become obvious.
if you take a look at the woman professionnal side, nearly all defenders use SP. On the man side, unless you have JSH FH and footwork or Filus ability to twiddle and attack on both side with your inverted rubbers, it has become really difficult with LP

Prior to JSH,  when had a defender been in the world top 10* and what made him so amazing when he burst on the scene in 2003**?

40+ balls or not, it has always been a tough way to make a living, especially on the men's side.

*I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s.

** The answer is clearly that his forehand was every bit as good as any attacking player he every faced.

Baal wrote: I think it's not possible.  You can stretch for a forehand and loop or chop or whatever and get away with it.  BH side is a lot more sensitive, you really cannot be very far out of position and hit any kind of decent BH.  But defenders often have to bring balls back on that side from awkward positions (it's what makes them so fun to watch, it's like watching a tightrope act).  LP on the BH makes this less of an issue -- you can stretch a bit more on still manage to keep the ball low -- but the tradeoff is you can't really attack with it.  I think if what you asked was viable, we would have seen it.

TT newbie wrote: It´s interesting you say that, because I will try exactly this change.  I play SP penhold with inverted RPB, but the RPB has never been something natural for me. It takes more time to prepare and it is not near as powerful as a shakehand BH. Besides, my index finger started to ache lately, I don´t know the reason. So I will try the SH style maintaining the SP in the FH and an inverted in the BH.

Having gone through the era of the "shakehandization" tide, I guess I have seen enough to make some judgement. I have a friend who tried to incorporate the RPB with short pips. Yup, short pips. Having another inverted rubber on the back was simply too heavy back in the days. Didn't end well. He tried really hard. All in vain. OTOH, I stuck to traditional penhold, honed my short game, and guess what? I could beat loads of people, shakehanders included, merely using high-quality, well-placed pushes. See what I mean?

Edited by zeio - 03/08/2017 at 11:46am

Baal wrote: Prior to JSH,  when had a defender been in the world top 10* and what made him so amazing when he burst on the scene in 2003**? 40+ balls or not, it has always been a tough way to make a living, especially on the men's side. *I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s. ** The answer is clearly that his forehand was every bit as good as any attacking player he every faced.

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?

GeneralSpecific wrote: Then wouldn't you say that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping? I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.

Yes. In fact, some heavyweights have spoken on this topic. In an article published by the Table Tennis World, circa September 2003, a panel of former CNT choppers sat down and shared their thoughts on the state of the defensive style.

Some of them agreed the defensive style needed to clear up, and for some, redefine the relation between offense and defense.

It was unanimously agreed that defenders needed to possess a strong forehand, with the ability to make strong counterloops, not the normal kind, but the full-body, consistent and consecutive ones, and stay closer to the table as much as possible.

Backhand offense capability was among the consideration, but views on that were mixed.

And then the following guarantees a full-blown translation:

为什么说丁松误导了一代人？ Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders? 　　王浩：丁松的出现，确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念，因为他的攻势比较强，但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说，丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候，然后再有进攻，丁松的发球你们都没有，他的进攻机会比你们多，不能全学丁松。 Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style. (TL's note: JSH has said DS is his idol, and that he has learnt a lot from him. I would count him in as one of the misled.) 现在学得中国的正手没有一个会削的，我说，"你们看看丁松正手会削吗？"削得好着呢！他们就以为丁松正手全是攻球，训练的时候或许练两下，真到赛场上全不敢削，全是反拉。 Right now, everyone copies so much that there is no one in China who can chop on the forehand. And I said, "check out DS's forehand. Can he chop?" Hell yeah! They thought DS's forehand was all about offense, and as such don't give the defense much thought in training. When the time comes on the court, they don't dare to chop, but only to counterloop. 现在先要让他们敢削敢相持，在这个基础上再谈反攻。像丁松当年与王涛那场球，那是削得好，不是攻得好，现在我们的孩子上去就想抡开膀子拉，简直开玩笑。 From now on, the first thing is to get them to dare to chop and to enter a rally, and upon that foundation do we talk about counter-attack. Take that match between DS and Wang Tao. That's good chopping, not good attacking. Nowadays our children only want to swing from the get-go. It's ridiculous. 　　丁松：的确，我打得好的时候首先是削得稳的时候。 DS: Indeed, when I was at my best, the first thing was to chop consistently. 　　蔡振华：我们没有真正对削球进行深入研究，男线中削与攻的关系还是以攻为主--平时训练攻、比赛也要攻--攻球是削球的制胜法宝之一，但什么时候能攻、什么环节要攻，这需要探讨，男线上正因为过分地强调攻，所以守球的基础非常薄弱。 Cai Zhenhua: We haven't made any serious attempt at studying chopping. On the men's side, offense is still in the majority in the offense-defense relation -- attack in daily training, attack in matches -- offense is one key to winning in chopping, but when to attack, at which point to attack, that requires discussion. It's because the men's excessive focus on offense, that the foundation of defense is left very weak. 　　朱世赫：我的削球尤其是正手削球还需多加练习，攻球也有需要改进的地方。 JSH: My chopping, especially on the forehand, still needs more refining. There is also room for improvement on attacking. 　　侯英超：我如果想进一步提高，主要是在削球方面，所以目前削球训练的比重也较大。假如上午单球练100分钟，我练削球的时间占到40分钟，活动10分钟，发球抢攻约20分钟，再有一些个人计划，比如连续拉，还有对方要练他自己的套路，但同时我也在削，所以削的比例差不多超过50%。 Hou Yingchao: If I were to reach higher, it'd be in chopping, so my current training puts more weight on that. Say I train single-ball for 100 mins in the morning, 40 mins would be on chopping, 10 mins on activities, 20 mins on serve and attack, the rest on personal goals, such as consecutive loops, and the other player has to work on his own game, but at the same time I'm also chopping, so the ratio of chopping nearly reaches over 50%. 　　姚国治：我觉得攻削比例应根据你的风格来定，须有主次之分，绝对不能攻守各半，否则是盲目而混乱的，不能说想攻就攻想守就守，这样做的结果可能是样样都会样样稀松。 Yao Guozhi: I feel that the ratio of offense-defense should depend on your style, that there must be a primary-secondary distinction. It must not be half-and-half between offense and defense. Otherwise, it'd be mindless and chaotic. You can't say I want to attack and then attack, or defend and then defend. Doing so would probably result in the master of none. 现在对削球的要求反而更低？ Nowadays the requirement for choppers is lower? 　　陈新华：我不认为现在对削球手的要求更高了，恰恰相反，我认为更低了。在我看来，朱世赫的削球达不到世界第二的水平。过去的削球某种程度上比现在更稳，功底比现在更深，转和不转比现在运用得更好，而朱世赫只会加转，也不是非常稳健。 Chen Xinhua: I don't believe that the current requirement for choppers is higher. It's the exact opposite. I believe it's lower. To me, JSH's chopping has not reached the level of world no. 2. Chopping in the past was, to a certain extent, more consistent than it is now. Foundations were deeper. The use of spin/no-spin was better, and JSH only knows how to add spin, and he is not very consistent. 　　丁松：现在削球如果退得太后不好，球速太慢；我希望像姚振绪那样逼住两个大角，然后正手拉，但如今也不太可行，人家球速快会顶住你，很矛盾。朱世赫如果能像松下浩二那样会倒板就更理想了，毕竟对方拉到他正手的球不是个个都能反拉的，这时他可以倒过来用长胶再削削，过渡一下或许更好，因为他反胶不太敢削。 DS: Currently, it's not good chopping from too far back, as the ball speed would be too slow; I wish it could be like Yao Zhenxu jamming the two deep corners, then followed by forehand loops, but that's not quite feasible nowadays, as the speed of the incoming ball would jam you up. It's a dilemma. It'd be great if JSH could twiddle like Koji Matsushita, as not every loops to his forehand can be chopped back. At that point, he can twiddle and chop with the LP, to serve as a transition, since he doesn't quite dare to chop with the inverted. 　　姚振绪：当年这种逼角确实有一定作用，但今天很多选手在对攻中都可以全台大面积移动，削球速度这么慢，即使角度削得开也不会再给对手造成致命的威胁。当然话说回来，削得开总比老削在中间好，若能主动削去对方正手位，你自己的反拉、侧身攻不是也更容易吗？至于倒板削球，如果想靠器材来制造旋转变化，这是有规律性的，而靠自己的技术来变是没有规律性的，更容易得分。 Yao Zhenxu: Jamming to the deep corners worked back in the days, but nowadays many players can move in a large radius when counter attacking. Even if the angles are wide, chops are too slow to pose any serious threat to them. Still, wide-angle chops are still better than chops to the middle. If you can actively chop to the opponent's forehand, wouldn't your counterloops and step-around attacks become easier? As to twiddling to chop, if you want to create spin variation through equipment, then that'd be predictable. OTOH, using your own skills to create variation would be unpredictable, and thus easier to gain points.

Edited by zeio - 03/08/2017 at 10:33pm

zeio wrote: Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders? 　　王浩：丁松的出现，确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念，因为他的攻势比较强，但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说，丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候，然后再有进攻，丁松的发球你们都没有，他的进攻机会比你们多，不能全学丁松。 Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style.

Wang Hao (Eddie) lives in Houston now.  I hit with him a few weeks ago.  Crazy.  No way for me to get a ball by him.  Just no freaking way.

Here's the deal. Remember last year when I claimed Mikhailova was no chopper? People thought I was insane.

Is Mikhailova the ideal player GeneralSpecific describes?