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mickd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/16/2017 at 12:30am
I know these threads generate a lot of divided opinions, and most the time they're extremely inaccurate, too. But I personally always found them enjoyable to read.

So this is a for fun thread. Everyone is welcome to estimate whatever they want. Please estimate in USATT rating. These videos are of me. I'm the guy that appears in all the videos! Younger guy wearing black in the first 2 videos, and blue in the last 2.

Quick note: I've never played in the US. I started playing after moving to Japan, and I play at local clubs and tournaments. I live in rural Japan.

Here are some matches I played recently. I've edited out picking up the balls to shorten the videos. I'll include background on the players as well, so hopefully that helps.

Player 1:
Inverted Penholder. I've played in like 5 times over the last few years. I've never won. I've never even been close until now. He's one of the better players. He specializes in spin. Most of his serves have a lot of sidespin, and his pushes have quite a lot of backspin, too. While he is pretty good at opening, he usually pushes until the opponent opens, and counter loops from far from the table.
Score:
14-16
8-11
7-11
10-12 (We played 4 sets)
0-4



Player 2:
Inverted Shakehand Player. This was my second time playing him. I think I played him once like 3 months ago, and I won 3-1 then, too. He's an average player in the club. All round player. Can loop the ball, but seems to prefer smashing the ball (even underspin balls) closer to the table, and then looping further from the table.
Score:
11-7
7-11?
11-8
11-8
3-1



Player 3:
Inverted Shakehand Player. I've played her maybe 4 times over the years. I've never beaten her, but I usually get a set or 2. This time was pretty close, though. She's also an average player at the club. I find her style extremely difficult to play against. I usually push quite heavy, and I topspin balls quite a lot. She has like the perfect racket angle to attack my pushes (against other people she struggles to close the racket). And she blocks my attacks extremely quick off the bounce, usually with a slight down moving action. The ball comes back really quickly.
Score:
6-11? (My recording screwed up, so I don't remember the score completely)
11-13
11-7?
10-12
1-3



Player 4:
Inverted Shakehand Player. I've played him maybe 6 times. He's one of the best players at the club I play at. Top 5 for sure. 2 wing looper. Likes to play mid distance. I have a lot more 'unforced' errors against him. But that's probably to be expected against better players, since even the weaker balls they return are made to be harder to attack. Some of you may remember him from my other videos!
Score:
6-11
4-11
4-11
0-3



Don't forget, comments on the actual matches are of course welcome, too!
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bard romance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 12:45am
I'll say it could be anywhere from 1700-2000 from the brief clips I watched
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 10:27am
My guess is around 1800.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 10:57am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I'll say it could be anywhere from 1700-2000 from the brief clips I watched

After rewatching, I'll say that it's probably on the higher end of that estimate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 11:06am
Out of curiosity what kind of camera do you use in that last video?
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USATT: 1725
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 6:01pm
1800s. Serve is a little better if you would focus before you serve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 7:53pm
Thanks. I'm loving the consistency of everyone's estimates!

By the way cole_ely, I think the most consistent thing about all those matches was me missing at least 1 serve per set. I usually don't miss that many. But then again, recently I've been playing a lot less too (because of work).

The camera I used was the same for all 4 matches (taken in different places, with different lighting). I used a Sony Alpha a6000 with a 18-105 F4 lens. The camera is pretty old now, but gets the job done. It overheats easily though, so that's an issue.

Keep the estimates/comments coming :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinshiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 9:12pm
I can't coment about your rating, but I just want to say that the girl's reactions are so cute hahaha

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote el luchador Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 9:48pm
I watched the first two videos.
You would beat everyone at my club who is around 1000. you may beat a couple of 1100-1200s, but you wont beat the 1300 guys and definitely not a 1500 player.

so based on that I would say you are between 1100-1250
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by el luchador el luchador wrote:

I watched the first two videos.
You would beat everyone at my club who is around 1000. you may beat a couple of 1100-1200s, but you wont beat the 1300 guys and definitely not a 1500 player.

so based on that I would say you are between 1100-1250

That's probably too low (his FH is too good), but I think other estimates are also on the high side. 

I'd be in the middle somewhere, ~1600, given how OP is troubled by some styles in the matches (e.g. blocker girl, I was almost sure she used pips on BH, but I guess she does good chop block with inverted too) and quite a few mistakes in other matches.

I think OP is at the stage where strokes are getting there from training, but match skills did not catch up yet. Wink 
USATT: ~1810
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I'll say it could be anywhere from 1700-2000 from the brief clips I watched


After rewatching, I'll say that it's probably on the higher end of that estimate. 


No where near 2000. I'd say 1400-1500.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 10:59pm
@shinshiro Haha yeah. I mentioned that to her the day after I took the video too. She's super friendly.

Japan is pretty into table tennis. She's been playing for like 20 years. But like most people, playing for fun rather than training. And of course, as an adult, people don't get as much time to play.

Club activities is also a big part of their improvement. For example, the last guy I played is like 24 or 25 now. He started when he was 12 (like many of the players here), playing 6 days a week as part of club activities in middle school, senior high, and in his case, he continued to play in university. The good thing about club activities is that most of the practice is structured, with time dedicated to performing specific drills and multiball.

Oh I envy them so much!! In Australia, I just went home at 3pm and wasted my nights away chatting on messenger programs and playing games!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 11:04pm
Thanks for all the new estimates! I find them really interesting because there are so many factors that influence what people say.

Depending on where you live and play, everything changes. For example, where el luchador plays, many of those players may be heavily underrated. Though, I can't say for sure since I don't live in the US! I hope I'm a little higher than 1300, though this is all for fun, so feel free to estimate anything!

@pgpg Different styles is definitely a hurdle, and is what makes it interesting :) I still suck against LP, but I'm definitely much better at it compared to a year ago! I also think that's why I find that girl's style difficult. I've mentioned to her multiple times already that playing against her is like playing against LP, expect the ball comes back a lot faster, with less spin variation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/16/2017 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I'll say it could be anywhere from 1700-2000 from the brief clips I watched


After rewatching, I'll say that it's probably on the higher end of that estimate. 


No where near 2000. I'd say 1400-1500.

Opens decently well consistently against long serves and long returns. Takes the attack and keeps it fairly well. Seems in balance and control in extended rallies. I believe I saw a counterlooping rally in there. 

What makes you say nowhere near 2000, just curious? And for context, your level, if you wish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 2:30am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by el luchador el luchador wrote:

I watched the first two videos.
You would beat everyone at my club who is around 1000. you may beat a couple of 1100-1200s, but you wont beat the 1300 guys and definitely not a 1500 player.

so based on that I would say you are between 1100-1250

That's probably too low (his FH is too good), but I think other estimates are also on the high side. 

I'd be in the middle somewhere, ~1600, given how OP is troubled by some styles in the matches (e.g. blocker girl, I was almost sure she used pips on BH, but I guess she does good chop block with inverted too) and quite a few mistakes in other matches.

I think OP is at the stage where strokes are getting there from training, but match skills did not catch up yet. Wink 


I'm going with the 1600+ also.  I'm 1700+ and I think you would give me trouble.  I think my LP's would give me the advantage (win).  I also agree that your training skills are probably better than your match skills.  Your play appears to be a little on the wild side.  At times slightly out of control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 2:53am
mickd, in USA, your rating would fluctuate by region, you could be 1300 in a few places and mid 1500s to 1600 in some others. Some places, your league rating would be higher.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 3:31am
Thanks guys. Usually the more orthodox the player is, the better I do. That said, the more orthodox the player is, the more likely they are to have been coached at some point, and thus decreasing my chances of beating them anyway lol.

Most players are unorthodox in their play, and thus I struggle because experience becomes more of a factor. LPs aren't unorthodox, but has the same feeling because I have a lot less practice against it. That said, I'm starting to feel a lot more comfortable against it, and I think in another year or so, I'll probably have no problems against it at the level I'm playing now.

I've only been playing about 2 days a week recently (with even less some weeks, sadly, and usually one of the sessions I spend helping middle school kids improve). I think everyone does much better in practice. I concentrate a lot more on form in practice. I think more about strategy during matches.

@BH-Man Oh, I completely agree! This thread really is just for fun. I play in a completely different environment, and we don't have rating systems like America. I kinda wish there was so I could see my improvement a little more objectively.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 10:49am
What a wide spread of the estimates !!!!!

As low as 1100.
As high as 2000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks for all the new estimates! I find them really interesting because there are so many factors that influence what people say.

Depending on where you live and play, everything changes. For example, where el luchador plays, many of those players may be heavily underrated. Though, I can't say for sure since I don't live in the US! I hope I'm a little higher than 1300, though this is all for fun, so feel free to estimate anything!

@pgpg Different styles is definitely a hurdle, and is what makes it interesting :) I still suck against LP, but I'm definitely much better at it compared to a year ago! I also think that's why I find that girl's style difficult. I've mentioned to her multiple times already that playing against her is like playing against LP, expect the ball comes back a lot faster, with less spin variation.

Right, and you are going to run into a lot of different styles in a tournament, especially at the lower levels (almost everyone is a 2-wing looper at 2000+, it seems...). So this is something that can keep your tournament rating down, until you figure out how to avoid costly losses to LP players, blockers, SP hitters etc.

Then I feel one should subtract few points for 'playing under pressure against unfamiliar opponent' situations, which casual club (and even league) matches mostly lack.

So, perhaps I'll revise it to 1500+-150 - based mostly on the fact that I played few folks this weekend that looked similarly to you in some aspects (great opening FH, rallies, movement), but performed at ~1500 level in the end. Your league rating would probably be higher, as BH-Man pointed out (mostly matches against familiar opponents with low stakes).  

Still, you are looking good here - plus we could be way off as well, that's just how it is with the videos. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 1:59pm
The spin level is too low.  The stroke looks right, but the acceleration is too small compared to what it should be to generate good spin.  The last video with your opponent's shots shows what 2000+ (likely 2200+) acceleration looks like.  He is the one player in all the videos who looks like he is in a completely different class from everyone else.

That said, the form of your game is correct and it can easily evolve into a 2000+ game once the acceleration (brushing for spin and going through the ball for spin drive with early timing) and backhand issues are resolved.  You really should be putting the ball past people with one shot more often given your form but the timing is just too late.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 2:20pm
The sub-1500 estimates are laughable. You are in the 1700s usatt. Watch from :20 to :35 in the first video and you can see this is no 1300 player.

Your fh is good. It could be better, but it's not your problem right now, imo. You showed no evidence of having a bh attack in these sets. If we were playing I would try to pin you on your bh until you gave me an easy fh attack.

And all your serves were long. Maybe it doesn't matter there since most of the time your opponents didn't attack them. But eventually you have to be able to serve short.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 10:43pm
Thanks guys! I think I play well under pressure. I probably play in close to 10 competitions a year. Japan has a lot of local tournaments. The only problem is that they're mostly all team competitions, and my team isn't very strong, so the group we get put in is not so difficult. I usually win most of my matches.

I did serve mostly long or half-long in those matches. I just did it because I felt like those were the most effective serves. If my opponents can't or don't attack my long serves well, no reason to serve short ;)

There were some games before where I served short often, but that was mainly because I was practicing, even if it was an actual tournament. My opponents didn't look so strong, so I served short to practice my third ball or backhand opening.

You can see them from my other thread here.

Here is another one from that tournament that I don't think I linked. But yeah, my opponents aren't so high level.




Edited by mickd - 10/17/2017 at 10:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:


I did serve mostly long or half-long in those matches. I just did it because I felt like those were the most effective serves. If my opponents can't or don't attack my long serves well, no reason to serve short ;)

This is a very wrong-minded approach unless you really believe that your opponents return your short serves better than they return your long serves, which in my experience is only true if they push short or have strong flicks, and even in that case, you probably won't develop a good backhand opener if you don't have strong short serves.  I serve short not because my opponents attack long serves, but because many of my opponents return short serves poorly because they lack over the table strokes.  Looking at the girl you struggle with for example, I find it hard to believe she returns balls when she has to reach over the table as well as the long easy serves you gave her, but what you have written that I quoted leads me to believe you think that.  Amazing.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 11:16pm
OK.
I give you 2 observations and 2 training suggestions

1) Don't jump or stamp or stand up one one leg when doing forehand topspin. All the power is lost into the ground or directed not where you want, ruining the shot and worse, leaving you unbalanced and too slow to react when someone actually knows how to block a topspin or return it. Look at how you jump and stamp when you topspin in the clips. DONT DO THAT. Rotate the hip, transfering weight from the forehand knee to the other but without moving them from where they are.

Look at the footwork of the kid from the 3rd clip, the last shot where he beats you, that's how your feet should move in preparation to the shot and during the shot itself (very small very precise movements).
In fact, that last point in the 3rd clip, from serve to the kill shot, the kid's footwork was gorgeous, absolutely beautiful, you must copy that exactly. Even a very good player will look at that footwork in some awe, I promise you.

Also the guy who's much better in the 4th clip. Look at the legs.


2) Your backhand is the typical awful backhand. I'm not saying that to offend, it's the same as EVERY player who wasn't coached properly or is just a beginner, same problem for everyone and also me until I noticed it and practiced it --- you're moving your arm towards the ball and 'touching' it lightly instead of keeping your arm back, waiting for the ball, and executing an actual backhand stroke that's fast. Like you do when practicing backhand to backhand. I hope.

This happens in games generally because your reaction time isn't fast enough (so you feel, it's not true) and you feel that you have to return the goddamn ball however way, that just touching it would be enough, better than not touching it. But it would be a lot better for you to not do that. It's not just a bad shot, but you're effectively training yourself to repeat it. Just wait for the ball to come and execute the correct movement with speed when the ball is close to you. Even if you lose games to begin with.


Training suggestion:
1) ALWAYS topspinning/flicking every third ball (not pushing/chopping except in serve return), while making sure your feet ARE PLANTED SOLID AND UNMOVING (but knees bent).
Sure you'll lose but you'll improve

2) Playing matches with friends using ONLY backhand, using footwork to get you around. Sure, you'll lose, but you'll improve



Edited by Lightzy - 10/17/2017 at 11:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/17/2017 at 11:22pm
Very good observations Lightzy.  Much better than my "you're out of control" statement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2017 at 12:17am
Sorry NL. I didn't really mean to generalize the statement when I said it, especially since I agree with you. It was more that I felt like the short serves would disadvantage me, rather than my opponents not attacking it.

In this particular case, I've played these people before, though not often, so I was following what I felt like worked well and didn't work well in the past.

Player 1 puts so much backspin on his pushes that when I served short with underspin, with the extra spin from his push, I had a lot of trouble attacking the third ball. Maybe now I could do it though, since it was probably close to a year ago that I last played him. So my general strategy was to serve long or half long, with side or side and top to get his return to pop up a little. Serving short didn't make it harder for him, but I felt like it made me less consistent with my opening.

Player 2 I probably should have served short more often since I don't have any problems with his pushes.

Player 3 I also had the same problem as player 1 in the past (maybe like 6 months ago). I'm not 100% sure her pushes are especially heavy, as I think player 1 pushes heavier, but she's good at making the ball come just a little shorter than I think it would, and I end up missing a lot, with many of my openers going into the net. I found long no spin balls to be the most effective in the past, and the only reason why I could take 1 to 2 sets is because I served nearly all no-spin long serves to her middle/backhand. The sets I didn't, I lose quite badly. That said, this time I used a lot more side spin balls, which I felt were quite effective. She definitely can't attack my short balls over the table well, which gives me a consistent chance at a third ball. I just sucked at the third ball. Maybe now I could do it though..

Player 4 is just much better than me hehe. The most effective serves in the past were actually short top/side spin serves. I didn't really do many in that match because they would only be effective a few times at most. I thought that I'd have to play riskier to get the points. Since he wasn't really attacking my long serves, and his openers I felt like were simple enough for me to get a chance at a third ball, I didn't change it up. I felt like playing from a short ball would play more to his strengths.

All that being said, I know I'll need to play more short serves to practice against it. I just felt like in those cases, those serves were better. But even if I was playing to win more than practice, I should have used more short serve variety. I actually did a lot less than I usually do.

That said, my instinct is changing all the time due to changes in my ability and experience. And my ultimate goal is to be at a level where I feel like I'm taking a big risk whenever I serve long.

I really do appreciate anyone who takes the time to reply, and while it sounds like I'm disagreeing with you with my reply, I do agree with you. My instincts just don't agree with my logical self. Hope that makes sense!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2017 at 12:26am
Thanks Lightzy. You've identified some really good points and given me some great advice. You've basically highlighted the two things I dislike the most about the way I play at the moment. Issues I've been thinking a lot about for over a year now, but have had trouble fixing. 

I absolutely hateeeeeee how I lean too much on one leg when doing topspins. It's really high on my list of things I'm trying to fix. I've been thinking that the cause might be because 1. I take the ball too late or 2. I'm too close to the table, or a combination of both. This is one of the big causes as to why my balls are so slow. They're still quite spinny, but way too slow to really finish the point.

My backhand is a work in progress, and I still can't do most of the things I can in practice in matches yet. Way too many issues with it lol. I'll work on waiting for the ball to come. Sounds so easy but it's quite difficult to train. =(

@mts388 Haha yeah, he definitely expanded on that a lot more!

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention, player 3 is actually a woman in her late 30s hehe. She's just really small. 


Edited by mickd - 10/18/2017 at 1:36am
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Lightzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2017 at 6:36am
Good luck friend, I think we'll all be very happy to see more videos of yours from months to come :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2017 at 9:20am
As I said in the other thread, your BH is basically an arm only stroke and is probably your largest bottleneck now. You have to give your BH a lot more time than your FH at this point in your development otherwise you risk letting the FH oriented game be ingrained into your mindset. As I have said in the other thread, you are not using your body and not brushing the ball hard when you topspin. Bring your elbow in front of your body, and don't think "I'm just going to safely put the ball with a bit of topspin to the other end", think "I'm going to load this ball with so much spin that you won't be able to handle it." You have to be willing to let your ego down, lose matches to train up your BH. Although playing safe may win you matches in the short run, it will slow down your development in the long run...Commit to performing the BH topspin whenever you get a long ball to your BH!

Another thing is that you need to use the table more, go for the angles and jam the elbow, now it just seems that you don't pay much attention to the placement. All your shots should be very intentionally made to make your opponent feel uncomfortable and not just to return the ball back safely.
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2017 at 9:35am
Player 1 has good serves in terms of spin, but I question how high that toss is.  You say he has heavy backspin, yet nearly all of your serves are underspin.  Try no spin, medium length serve to allow you to open up easier.

Player 2, at least from the video, looks to be about just above beginner level... maybe 11/1200.  I'm shocked that he even got a game off of you and is the main reason I rated you lower.  

Player 3, as you mentioned, is a very good off the bounce counter blocker.  Note that she wants to control the middle.  She is uncomfortable at the angles which is where you should direct your attacks.  For the most part your loops were not strong enough to affect her at her cross over point.  Attack the angles where you had success.

Player 4 is clearly a number of levels above and looks like he had to back off a bit.  He's a good example for you to mimic.

I like pgpg's revised estimate (1500+-150).  Keep up the good progress!
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