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FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !! |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Posted: 04/11/2018 at 7:44pm |
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FITeT is Federacio di Italiano Tennis Tavolo to govern the whole sport inside the country.
FITeT has just approved the testing device to control pimpled rubbers. Regulatory Document to introduce the Battester Device into practise use. http://www.fitet.org/la-federazione/regolamenti/regolamenti-attivita-agonistica.html?download=4314:regolamento-attivit%C3%A0-squadre-2017-2018-parte-generale Regolamenti dell’Attività a Squadre e dei relativi Campionati Parte Generale – Stagione Agonistica 2017/2018
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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They created a device for a rule that does not exist. While it is clear that a rubber must have a certain friction when AUTHORIZED/SOLD but there is no rule that makes a rubber illegal that has lost it's friction due to use. Lack of friction is not the same as proof of treatment. Anybody who has been playing tt for a while has played against 20 year old Srivers or Mark V that play like anti and trust me, they are not treated.. Rubbers do lose friction naturally due to use and old age. NOTHING in the rule would make such rubber illegal. There is NO RULE that requires the rubber to retain a certain friction when used given that it is untreated and uniform. Of course, if the Italian association does have such rule, they can legally enforce it but based on official ITTF rules, there is no friction requirement when used if the rubber is untreated.
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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jonyer1980
Gold Member Joined: 07/30/2008 Location: Spain Status: Offline Points: 1600 |
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This is the new age of inquisition of TT. The rubber rack for those that are witched or cursed.
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Rosewood V FL
Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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The device looks like a badass mousetrap.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Simon_plays
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2015 Location: Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
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Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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I am Italian and I have personally tested the tester:
1) the tester works fine
2) the difference between frictionless LP and regular LP is so different as
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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In Italy the use of irregular LP rubber is widespread and the bat tester has already considerably reduced their use.
Users of frictionless LP have moved to anti frictionless which, although they have an
Edited by andras - 04/12/2018 at 8:05am |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I thought the numwric frictiin requirement only applied to pips, not inverted.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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in this moment only LONG PIMPLE
inverted, short and medium pimple not have frictionless limit. In the video red rubber is regular black rubber is frictionless Edited by andras - 04/12/2018 at 8:18am |
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notfound123
Gold Member Joined: 01/18/2008 Location: MD, USA Status: Offline Points: 1026 |
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Let's go after blockers and defenders... there are way too many of them on the tour.
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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I bet the blockers and defenders on the tour are not the ones who'll worry about this test? Now, if they come up with something to detect boosting (not just VOC's), that'll cause some worry on the tour. |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Applicable rules: 2.04.07.01 The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to?? So, if this was written as a computer program, it would be like this: IF DEVIATION DUE TO DAMAGE THEN ---IF DAMAGE CHANGES CHARACTERISTICS THEN ------ILLEGAL ---ELSE ------MAY BE ALLOWED ---END IF ELSE ---LEGAL END-IF The other rule: Quote: 2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc. This means that you may not treat the rubber. As I said, there are no rules that require the rubber to maintain it's properties from new as long as it is not treated.. The Italian Association makes the assumption that all rubbers with lower than factory friction are lower friction because of treatment. This is obviously false. Rubber properties do change with use and age.. That's a FACT. They are CIRCUMVENTING that due process within the ITTF. Rules are passed by the AGM (Annual General Meeting) and Regulations (as the ones for manufacturers) are passed by the BoD (Board of Directors). The BoD has NO AUTHORITY to pass any type of RULES, just REGULATIONS. The BoD can only enforce RULES on the book and not rules that they think should be in place. As I pointed out, there are no rules that require a minimum friction of ANY rubber when used. ITTF is violating it's own bylaws if they enforce a rule that does not exist.
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 11:52am |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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ELSE ---LEGAL Hmmm.. I don't think so. If the deviation is slight -> might be legal if damage or wear does not significantly alter characteristics. If the deviation is NOT slight -> illegal. Simon_plays' recollection of the rules is very much in line with the rule you quoted.
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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The quote only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS. If there are NO DEVIATIONS, the whole paragraph does not apply. The word "THEY" CLEARLY refers to deviations. If a rubber has no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. So, if the wear is uniform with no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. It's very basic English language.. Let me ask you this, what does "THEY" refer to if not deviations?
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 12:00pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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There is no disagreement that "they" refers to deviations, and my post does not suggest otherwise. The whole context of what you quoted surrounds deviations. And of course if there are no deviations, then that's not a problem. But if there *are* deviations, then it might be illegal as 2.04.07.01 tries to clarify, and it's very much in line with what Simon_plays wrote. |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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I guess we are in agreement.. If there is a rubber that is UNIFORMLY WORN with no deviations in color, outlook, friction etc.. then there is nothing that would make a low friction rubber illegal IF IT IS NOT TREATED. Of course, IF there are deviations, it may be deemed illegal..
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 12:47pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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Fair enough. My only issue was with your computer program, specifically the "ELSE LEGAL" part. If I had as input to your program, a rubber that grossly deviated from the original, but the deviation was *not* due to accidental damage, your program would spit out legal.
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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OK... what I meant is that specific rule "DOES NOT APPLY". What still applies is the 2nd rule that the rubber may not be treated.. So, if you use a clear coat paint spray on top of your rubber, it may still be uniform but it still is not legal as it is treated.. Same goes for using Armor All on top of your rubber.. Uniform.. yes ... legal... no... Armor All makes your rubber illegal.. but makes it smell really good...
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 1:12pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Exactly x2, Players like Pushblocker give blockers and defenders a bad ref .
Edited by Egghead - 04/12/2018 at 1:23pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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book4all
Super Member Joined: 05/11/2017 Location: NJ, USA Status: Offline Points: 137 |
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I think it is only reasonable to ban both rubbers without friction and with friction.
What is the high reason to favor one kind of material, or one kind of player?
Your game is table tennis, and others' game is not table tennis?
Edited by book4all - 04/12/2018 at 1:24pm |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Rules are Rules and Rules that don't exist are not rules.. If there "should be" a rule that a rubber has to be close in properties to the original properties, then the AGM has to pass such rule.. It does not exist in our current set of rules.
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 1:25pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Did you read the "2.04.07.01" ? Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Again, do you speak English?? This rule only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS!! This does not apply if there are no deviations. So, if a rubber is UNIFORM, this does NOT apply.. This is BASIC ENGLISH.. Again, what does "THEY" refer to?? 2.04.07.01
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 1:39pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Lol, that black rubber looks definitely overcooked :-)
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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I am not. So, does it mean that I cannot point out cheaters |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Can't recall that you called any of the people posting in "boosting" threads to be cheaters.. Boosting (other than done by factory) is ILLEGAL and nobody seems to complain about it..... Using a old rubber that is uniformly worn is NOT illegal. Cheating is "VIOLATION" of rules.. If rules are not violated, it's not cheating..
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 1:42pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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It is illegal if the characteristics of that old rubber surface are significantly changed BTW, don't need to do all child plays; we are all adult here, and we want to have an adult conversation.
Edited by Egghead - 04/12/2018 at 1:50pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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No, it's not.. IF THE RUBBER IS UNIFORM, there is ZERO requirement that the surface may not have significantly changed.. That rule is written in CLEAR English. The requirement that the properties may not significantly change is CONDITIONAL (see the word "THEY" which refers to damage or lack of uniformity). If the condition (lack of uniformity) does not apply, then there is no requirement for the rubber to have certain properties. Again, this is written in clear English.. Again, "THEY" refers to this: Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear So, if a rubber has NO deviations from continuity , uniformity of color etc, the part of the rule AFTER THEY does not apply! It is as simple as that.. Boosting falls under TREATMENT and is always illegal except if done by the factory! Even if boosting make zero difference in rubber performance, it is still illegal unless done by the factory.. So, if you soak your sponge in oil to increase the tension on the rubber by expanding the sponge, you are treating the rubber.. This is a fact. 2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 2:02pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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Well, there's also this:
From Technical Leaflet T4: Racket Coverings https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf page 5: 8. Friction for pimples-out
The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In
the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied. It cannot be too worn out.
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