Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 4230 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:


No, it's not.. IF THE RUBBER IS UNIFORM, there is ZERO requirement that the surface may not have significantly changed.. That rule is written in CLEAR English. The requirement that the properties may not significantly change is CONDITIONAL (see the word "THEY" which refers to damage or lack of uniformity).
If the condition (lack of uniformity) does not apply, then there is no requirement for the rubber to have certain properties. Again, this is written in clear English..

Again, "THEY" refers to this:

Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear

So, if a rubber has NO deviations from continuity , uniformity of color etc, the part of the rule AFTER THEY does not apply! It is as simple as that..

Boosting falls under TREATMENT and is always illegal except if done by the factory! Even if boosting make zero difference in rubber performance, it is still illegal unless done by the factory..
So, if you soak your sponge in oil to increase the tension on the rubber by expanding the sponge, you are treating the rubber.. This is a fact.

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.
Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)




Edited by Egghead - 04/12/2018 at 2:35pm
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 4230 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Battester in action.

https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg

Lol, that black rubber looks definitely overcooked :-)
they should test the "Light curing certification" LPWink
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
1dennistt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/03/2010
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 533 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1dennistt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:43pm
I have an old Friendship blade, complete with the original inverted rubber I purchased off of eBay about 10 years ago, the blade still has the original stickers on the handle.  The rubber although it has lost much of its original grip, looks quite good for its age.  It does have a couple of small blemishes in the topsheet from storage, but not use.  

Still overall it "looks" playable, just by looking at it.  Playing with it, you would quickly discover it isn't up to producing the spin or speed of new sheets.  I have not tried to treat them with anything to see if I can restore the like new grip of the sheets, they just lost this with age, and I bought it for a collectors item, since it matched an early blade I had years ago.

So rubber can pass a visual inspection, pass the test of uniformity and lack of damage, and still not be really in mint condition.  It's not quite anti yet, but probably well on its way.

Similarly, I have old sheets of Feint Long (the first one, not II, III, or AG) and they should still pass the test equally well even though they wouldn't pass the test of being on the LARC list now.  It's illegal not for not passing these tests, but for the pips being too long and skinny if I remember correctly.
Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Well, there's also this:


page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.

This is a REGULATION required for AUTHORIZATION, not a rule.. This just means that a rubber when manufactored/authorized must have this amount of friction. OBVIOUSLY, rubbers do wear. Some faster.. some slower but they all wear.. There is no rule that requires those properties not to change as this would be impossible.. EVERY rubber changes with use..
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)


Some rubbers are uniform when worn, others are not, Especially black rubbers tend to stay uniform when wearing.. I have seen a 10 year old Mark V that looked completely uniform but had the friction of an anti...

Again, if a rubber is NOT uniform, there is no argument that it can be disallowed..
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

I have an old Friendship blade, complete with the original inverted rubber I purchased off of eBay about 10 years ago, the blade still has the original stickers on the handle.  The rubber although it has lost much of its original grip, looks quite good for its age.  It does have a couple of small blemishes in the topsheet from storage, but not use.  

Still overall it "looks" playable, just by looking at it.  Playing with it, you would quickly discover it isn't up to producing the spin or speed of new sheets.  I have not tried to treat them with anything to see if I can restore the like new grip of the sheets, they just lost this with age, and I bought it for a collectors item, since it matched an early blade I had years ago.

So rubber can pass a visual inspection, pass the test of uniformity and lack of damage, and still not be really in mint condition.  It's not quite anti yet, but probably well on its way.

Similarly, I have old sheets of Feint Long (the first one, not II, III, or AG) and they should still pass the test equally well even though they wouldn't pass the test of being on the LARC list now.  It's illegal not for not passing these tests, but for the pips being too long and skinny if I remember correctly.

I have a blade with a red DHS G888 which is only 2 years old.. Unfortunately, I did not have that racket in a case. It was sitting in my closet for 2 years.. I recently played it and there is probably only 30 percent of the original grip remaining.. I did not put the rubber in the sun or apply any other treatment. It lost most of it's friction just by sitting in my closet without being in a case.. rubber is 100% uniform and like new otherwise but most of the grip is gone.. I may try to apply SPINMAX on it to see if I can bring more of it's friction back..


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 2:55pm
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Bran View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 06/18/2013
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 367 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.

If you use it for 5 minutes it is no longer as authorized... This rule is about treatment.
Look at some chinese sticky rubbers.. When they are new, you can pick up a ball with the rubber due to it's extreme stickyness. After playing with it for a few minutes, most of the stickyness is gone, at least 30 percent of it or so.. 30% change in properties is quite significant.. which would make just about every sticky chinese rubber illegal after 1 hour of use..
The rule says nothing about wear..


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 3:04pm
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 4230 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)


Some rubbers are uniform when worn, others are not, Especially black rubbers tend to stay uniform when wearing.. I have seen a 10 year old Mark V that looked completely uniform but had the friction of an anti...

Again, if a rubber is NOT uniform, there is no argument that it can be disallowed..
That is what I want to see; how could it be uniform when the only part of the rubber was used Wink



Edited by Egghead - 04/12/2018 at 4:17pm
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 4230 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.

If you use it for 5 minutes it is no longer as authorized... This rule is about treatment.
Look at some chinese sticky rubbers.. When they are new, you can pick up a ball with the rubber due to it's extreme stickyness. After playing with it for a few minutes, most of the stickyness is gone, at least 30 percent of it or so.. 30% change in properties is quite significant.. which would make just about every sticky chinese rubber illegal after 1 hour of use..
The rule says nothing about wear..
the other one did Wink
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/22/2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3659 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Well, there's also this:


page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.

This is a REGULATION required for AUTHORIZATION, not a rule.. This just means that a rubber when manufactored/authorized must have this amount of friction. OBVIOUSLY, rubbers do wear. Some faster.. some slower but they all wear.. There is no rule that requires those properties not to change as this would be impossible.. EVERY rubber changes with use..

Of course every rubber wears out.  And yes, manufacturers have to abide by these regulations, but that does not mean the regulations are suddenly disregarded once the rubber gets into the hands of the consumer.  There's a general expectation that the player is responsible for keeping the rubber in good condition and replace it when it can no longer meet the minimum level of friction (or whatever other regulation).


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 04/12/2018 at 4:16pm
Back to Top
jpenmaster View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 12/24/2008
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 2176 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 6:12pm
This whole friction thing seems a bit ridiculous. The ITTF ban on frictionless long pips was one of the worst rules ever.

Edited by jpenmaster - 04/12/2018 at 8:46pm
OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
Back to Top
arg0 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/22/2009
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2023 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 7:44pm
Repeatedly hitting a tt ball is a physical treatment that, if it causes changes to the friction properties of the covering material, be it uniformly or not, causes a violation of Rule 2.04.07.

Rule 2.04.07 is silent about uniformity/continuity and includes any modification.
Just because there's a specific rule about deviations from continuity this does not mean that the other rules do not apply.
Nexy Arche & Nittaku Violin LG.
Join the Nexy Clan!
Also member of Violin & 1-Ply clans.
Back to Top
Tassie52 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/09/2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1318 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can't recall that you called any of the people posting in "boosting" threads to be cheaters.. Boosting (other than done by factory) is ILLEGAL and nobody seems to complain about it.....
Not true.  I complain about it all the time.  However, I'm immediately shouted down by all the boosters.


Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Cheating is "VIOLATION" of rules.. If rules are not violated, it's not cheating..
True.  On this one I totally agree with you.
Back to Top
Tassie52 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/09/2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1318 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

3) almost all of those who criticize the test are use frictionless LP then irregular.

This.
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)


Some rubbers are uniform when worn, others are not, Especially black rubbers tend to stay uniform when wearing.. I have seen a 10 year old Mark V that looked completely uniform but had the friction of an anti...

Again, if a rubber is NOT uniform, there is no argument that it can be disallowed..
That is what I want to see; how could it be uniform when the only part of the rubber was used Wink

Natural aging of rubber.. Rubber tends to harden as it ages.. Natural rubber eventually becomes like plastic at one point. Manufactorers have different rubber mixes.. Some harden faster than others.. Synthetic rubbers tend to change less, rubbers with more natural rubber content tend to harden slower.. As I said, I had a DHS G666 in my closet outside of the case and after 2 years, it lost most of it's friction.

Edited by Pushblocker - 04/12/2018 at 10:20pm
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.

If you use it for 5 minutes it is no longer as authorized... This rule is about treatment.
Look at some chinese sticky rubbers.. When they are new, you can pick up a ball with the rubber due to it's extreme stickyness. After playing with it for a few minutes, most of the stickyness is gone, at least 30 percent of it or so.. 30% change in properties is quite significant.. which would make just about every sticky chinese rubber illegal after 1 hour of use..
The rule says nothing about wear..
the other one did Wink
Yes it did, but wear only comes into play if the wear causes the rubber to no longer be uniform.
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Well, there's also this:


page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.

This is a REGULATION required for AUTHORIZATION, not a rule.. This just means that a rubber when manufactored/authorized must have this amount of friction. OBVIOUSLY, rubbers do wear. Some faster.. some slower but they all wear.. There is no rule that requires those properties not to change as this would be impossible.. EVERY rubber changes with use..

Of course every rubber wears out.  And yes, manufacturers have to abide by these regulations, but that does not mean the regulations are suddenly disregarded once the rubber gets into the hands of the consumer.  There's a general expectation that the player is responsible for keeping the rubber in good condition and replace it when it can no longer meet the minimum level of friction (or whatever other regulation).
Again, regulations are for manufactorers, rules are for players. This is a fact. For example, there are RULES regarding maximum rubber thickness of 4 mm for sandwich rubber and 2mm for top sheet. The 2mm for the top sheet is clearly stated in BOTH, RULES and REGULATIONS. The minimum friction regulation is ONLY a regulation, not a rule. Just like the AGM passed a RULE that a rubber when used may not exceed 4mm thickness, they could also pass a RULE that says that a rubber may not drop below x micro newton. The BoD is not authorized to pass rule changes. Only the AGM is according to ITTF bylaws.  
Let me give you an example..  Let's say that Regulation requires 50 micro newton on a rubber to get authorization. Now, let's say that a rubber passes authorization with exactly 50 micro newton.. Now, a player buys it and uses it for 10 hours.. The friction has  now dropped to 40 micro newton due to use and a player would now have to get a new one every couple of hours of play as the rubber will certainly drop below the authorization requirement. So, it makes no sense to assume that a rubber may not lose friction or drop below the friction regulation. As I said, the ITTF could easily pass a rule that requires a rubber to maintain x micro newton of friction to be remaining when used but such rule does not exist as of right now.
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 4230 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Again, regulations are for manufactorers, rules are for players. This is a fact. For example, there are RULES regarding maximum rubber thickness of 4 mm for sandwich rubber and 2mm for top sheet. The 2mm for the top sheet is clearly stated in BOTH, RULES and REGULATIONS. The minimum friction regulation is ONLY a regulation, not a rule. Just like the AGM passed a RULE that a rubber when used may not exceed 4mm thickness, they could also pass a RULE that says that a rubber may not drop below x micro newton. The BoD is not authorized to pass rule changes. Only the AGM is according to ITTF bylaws.  
Let me give you an example..  Let's say that Regulation requires 50 micro newton on a rubber to get authorization. Now, let's say that a rubber passes authorization with exactly 50 micro newton.. Now, a player buys it and uses it for 10 hours.. The friction has  now dropped to 40 micro newton due to use and a player would now have to get a new one every couple of hours of play as the rubber will certainly drop below the authorization requirement. So, it makes no sense to assume that a rubber may not lose friction or drop below the friction regulation. As I said, the ITTF could easily pass a rule that requires a rubber to maintain x micro newton of friction to be remaining when used but such rule does not exist as of right now.
As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:00am 
It's good to see how "the whole world is a country"
Even in Italy cheaters know and according to them respecting the rules that 
evidently apply only to others.
If you have a frictionless LP it's because you've changed it at home it's 
not been produced so it has become it alone ... same thing if you have a rubber 
with booster.
The first thing to do is to invite your federation to put into practice all that 
is possible to remove any unsportsmanlike behavior from the tables if you do not 
agree, it is because you agree that the rules can be NOT respected.
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 7:53am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Again, regulations are for manufactorers, rules are for players. This is a fact. For example, there are RULES regarding maximum rubber thickness of 4 mm for sandwich rubber and 2mm for top sheet. The 2mm for the top sheet is clearly stated in BOTH, RULES and REGULATIONS. The minimum friction regulation is ONLY a regulation, not a rule. Just like the AGM passed a RULE that a rubber when used may not exceed 4mm thickness, they could also pass a RULE that says that a rubber may not drop below x micro newton. The BoD is not authorized to pass rule changes. Only the AGM is according to ITTF bylaws.  
Let me give you an example..  Let's say that Regulation requires 50 micro newton on a rubber to get authorization. Now, let's say that a rubber passes authorization with exactly 50 micro newton.. Now, a player buys it and uses it for 10 hours.. The friction has  now dropped to 40 micro newton due to use and a player would now have to get a new one every couple of hours of play as the rubber will certainly drop below the authorization requirement. So, it makes no sense to assume that a rubber may not lose friction or drop below the friction regulation. As I said, the ITTF could easily pass a rule that requires a rubber to maintain x micro newton of friction to be remaining when used but such rule does not exist as of right now.
As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
As I pointed out, 2.04.07.01 only applies if the rubber is no longer uniform due to damage or wear. If a rubber is still uniform and the wear is consistent across the surface, this rule does not apply.


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 7:53am
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 7:59am 
the problem is that a frictionless rubber to work has a friction of less than
 8-10 micro newton.
Such friction reduction is only possible through manipulation.
There is no possibility that of course a homologate rubber will reach a level of 
friction so low as to allow the inversion present on a frictionless l.
If you play with a frictionless LP, you've manipulated it voluntarily
THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.

The same if you have a inverted rubber that is 4,08 mm is possible is the glue layer...
but of the rubber is 6,00 mm not possible is a little errorWink



Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 8:23am
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:01am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

It's good to see how "the whole world is a country"
Even in Italy cheaters know and according to them respecting the rules that 
evidently apply only to others.
If you have a frictionless LP it's because you've changed it at home it's 
not been produced so it has become it alone ... same thing if you have a rubber 
with booster.
The first thing to do is to invite your federation to put into practice all that 
is possible to remove any unsportsmanlike behavior from the tables if you do not 
agree, it is because you agree that the rules can be NOT respected.
Well, you are 100% wrong. Rubbers do naturally lose friction without treatment. Just about anyone who has played the sport for a little while has encountered players using a old rubber who no longer has friction. I've seen my share of anti like Mark V and Sriver rubbers.. Rubber naturally ages. Interesting article on rubber wear... https://www.polymersolutions.com/blog/why-does-rubber-dry-rot/ As for rules, there are rules that exist and those that don't exist. It's up to the AGM to pass rules, not the BoD.

Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 8:05am
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:06am 
The test as I have already written is very clear that a regular rubber takes 15 + 
seconds to slide the weight.
a frictionless LP takes less than a second the difference is enormous.
a rubber on which the test weight slips in 10 -8- 5 seconds is not slippery enough 
to allow a frictionless lp play.
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:27am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The test as I have already written is very clear that a regular rubber takes 15 + 
seconds to slide the weight.
a frictionless LP takes less than a second the difference is enormous.
a rubber on which the test weight slips in 10 -8- 5 seconds is not slippery enough 
to allow a frictionless lp play.
As I pointed out, the test in question enforces a rule that DOES NOT EXIST. There is not a single rule that does require the rubber to maintain a certain level of friction when used, just a REGULATION that requires a certain friction when MANUFACTURED. If there is a rule that requires x amount of friction on a rubber when used, please point to that rule..
The test is based on the FALSE assumption that any rubber that has less than a certain amount of friction was treated.. This is 100% false. I could even prove that.


Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 8:30am
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:44am 
The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:47am 
what you say would be correct if the difference between a regular lp 
and a frictionless was minimal.
But they are two different rubber with different characteristics 
that return a different ball
Back to Top
Pushblocker View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/09/2009
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 1976 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:53am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.
It can easily happen, and even within a relatively short period of time. If you don't believe me, try the following.. In summer, put your table tennis table outside and from 12 PM to 3 PM play outdoors table tennis every sunny day. Don't LEAVE your rubber in the sun (as this would be treatment), just play outdoors table tennis daily on sunny days for a couple of weeks.. Within a few weeks, you will have a rubber that was NOT treated, just used that will have no friction. Try it yourself.
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:10am 
Many players with treated rubber use the excuse of old rubber
 but it is very easy to deny it.
An old rubber has the area in which the ball is hit different from the edges because
 the wear is greater at that point.
A frictionless rubber is modified over the entire surface even on 
the edges not just in the middle.
it is also almost certain that a lp before losing its physical characteristics loses
 some pimple becoming no longer usable.


Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 9:28am
Back to Top
andras View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/26/2012
Location: italy
Status: Offline
Points: 225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:15am
Sorry for you me have friend that  sell this rubber other friend and know all.
you can also send them to the tropics for tanning, they do not become quite
slippery only with the sun.
The sun or better the solar lamps work better on the antitop together with other devices.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.