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FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !! |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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I understand where you are coming from but maybe those cheaters never say they break no rule. I don't know
Edited by Egghead - 04/13/2018 at 1:38pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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Since the same discussion has been dragging on the Italian forum for years,
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Now, you are playing stupid
Edited by Egghead - 04/13/2018 at 3:57pm |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test
does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is
required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set
limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist.
Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a
straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or
blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts"
drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears
treated is no proof that it is treated. I
personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone
being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will
have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a
imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love
to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that
it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in
the US, it is fairly easy.. Due process has to
be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction
regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule
changes.
Edited by andras - 04/13/2018 at 1:50pm |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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No, my tires are all GoodYear Eagle F1's and they are all regular
Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 1:55pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "
If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester. In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more. There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says: "The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied." Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space. Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this. It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity. So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more. |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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the question is that in Italia and not only in Italia it works like this:
in order to play sanctioned tournaments you must be registered with the f.i.t.e.t.
at the time you sign up, you accept the regulation imposed by the fitet.
If the fitet puts in the regulation that your racket must pass this test, by registering
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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Out of curiosity, are you vigorously objecting to the test implementation or the principle of testing for minimal LP friction itself?
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USATT: ~1810
Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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the test works because the difference between a frictionless and a regular lp in terms
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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I play smooth rubber, but have goofed around with LP. I play many LP players and don't care what friction they have. I have no strong opinion one way or the other. I do have a strong opinion about junk science. This "tester" has way too many issues. |
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andras
Super Member Joined: 07/26/2012 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 225 |
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if a national federation has decided that the test is valid to assess the validity
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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May be, may be not - the basic idea is pretty sound (although I would probably try to measure/test for a critical angle instead). One can list a lot of factors, but if these are small, then it does not matter much. In other words, just listing a lot of factors that *might* impact a measurement, is not enough to declare something a 'junk science', someone has to show that these actually matter. So, if main effect is 100% and you came up with 5-6 sources of potential systematic errors that are each of 1% magnitude, I don't think you disproved the original premise. Physics PhD here, if you are wondering (and no, I don't remember on top of my head how much humidity or temperature would matter here, but that's quite easy to test). |
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USATT: ~1810
Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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You sound like a reasonably intelligent person; have you worked on the site before? From my limited exposure to the petrochemical industry, I think the tool is fine.
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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arg0
Platinum Member Joined: 07/22/2009 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2023 |
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As my post was overshadowed, here it is again, with some further comments:
My reading of the rules is that repeatedly hitting a tt ball is a physical treatment that, if it causes changes to the friction properties of the covering material, be it uniformly or not, causes a violation of Rule 2.04.07. Rule 2.04.07 is silent about uniformity/continuity and includes any modification, be it uniform or not. Just because there's a specific rule (2.04.07.01) about deviations from continuity this does not mean that the other rules do not apply. At least this is my understanding: uniform wear is not allowed by Rule 2.04.07 if it modified the properties of the rubber surface. As to the testing device, as I see it it's not the final friction coefficient that counts, but the difference from the original, ITTF-approved surface. So yes, measuring the time for the puck to slide through the rubber with the testing device and comparing it to a fixed threshold time only works if the threshold comes from the ITTF-approved rubber with the lowest friction coefficient. It will, however not detect a worn T64, if it's still grippier than, say, a Nittaku Micro. Testing of relative times (e.g. T64 of current racket vs T64 new) would be possible but impractical, also due to manufacturing tolerances. |
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qpskfec
Silver Member Joined: 07/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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Agree the basic idea from a theoretical standpoint is sound. teaching this concept in a physics class is one thing, building many testers in a practical way and using them is different. For example, the tester looks like it is made of many pieces of injection molded plastic. Many things in the mfr process will affect the dimensions of the finished parts. That is why the final put together tester will have an angle of X plus or minus Y degrees. What is Y? My industry experience says Y is non trivial for a product like this. My quick and dirty google search for a COF equation on an inclined plane says COF is proportional to the sine of the angle. So if I pick an arbitrary angle then vary the angle by 2 degrees, I get a variation of almost 10% in COF. Since you are a Physics PHD, maybe you can confirm this. 10% variation would be significant. Then there is the usage of this tester over time. If it is left in a hot car, dropped, etc., how does that affect the test? If it is being used to DQ people out of a tourney where they have paid entry fees and have a chance to win $$$, the bar should be set high. BTW, if someone came to my company and tried to sell me a friction tester, I would ask all the questions I have stated here. Before even taking a meeting with the salesman, I would require them to send me all their technical documentation. There are commercial friction testers that work on this principal. They cost lots of $$$$. |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Of course, each organization can have their own rules.. Not contesting that.. |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 5:45pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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First of all, can you play with a frictionless LP? In addition, do you read the ITTF's Technical Leaflet T4: Racket Coverings, section 10 Player’s responsibilities? Actually, ITTF found that a 25 mN LP may be around 15 mN after a couple of years under normal conditions, not frictionless. haha, somehow, I keep hearing 'Blowin in The Wind' in my head
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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I thought it ironic that the top thread was about cheaters using frictionless LP's and the next one was about how to cheat using boosters.
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Technical Leaflet is a regulation for manufacturers that a rubber must have a certain friction for authorization purposes. Regulations are for authorization. Rules are for players. There is no rule that requires a rubber from retaining a certain amount of friction. I have been discussing the exact wording of the rules regulations and ITTF bylaws with 2 lawyer friends and one judge friend of mine and all came to the same conclusion.. I have to admit that one of those lawyer friends is also a long pips player...Rubbers have to be on the list of authorized rubbers but there is no rule against rubber wear if the wear does not cause the rubber to no longer be uniform. Edited by Pushblocker - 04/13/2018 at 8:42pm |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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As I said, show us this; you are saying "gospel" here.
On the other hand, section 10 did say it is player's responsibilities 10. Player’s responsibilities It is the player’s responsibility to use racket coverings that comply with the rules. For example, a red
racket covering may become too dark when affixed to a dark sponge or blade. A thick glue layer may
cause the racket covering to exceed the maximum thickness regulation of 4.0mm including top sheet,
sponge, and adhesive; or 2.0mm for rubber and adhesive without sponge. Players are advised to air a
brand-new rubber before use, even though the manufacturer is expected to aerate the rubber before
packaging. Use of post-factory treatments is not permitted and may cause the racket covering to
exceed the permitted thickness, friction, pimple density, etc. |
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pgpg
Gold Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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I was talking about the test - the other stuff was debated already ad nauseam and I'm not getting into it again, don't see a chance of changing anyone's mind here (including mine).
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USATT: ~1810
Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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C'mon, if you want to play stupid or to cover your eyes, no one will stop you 2.04.07.01 clearly covers "wear" already, and that pt 10 clearly pts out that it is player's responsibilities.
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Pushblocker
Gold Member Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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smackman
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The two leading treads "How to boost tenergy" YAY
and "the long pimple cheaters" BOO too funny
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pongfugrasshopper
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If this is true (PB treating LP and selling) then all of this parsing of rules and regulations to infinity is moot. I think all that needs to be said has already been said. I'm out. Have fun all.
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jpenmaster
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This exactly
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LUCKYLOOP
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The friction long pips have more shot options than the frictionless pips. |
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