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Level to migrate Wood to ALC? Rule of Thumb? |
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Dream1700
Super Member Joined: 12/02/2017 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 410 |
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Posted: 09/12/2018 at 2:50pm |
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if somebody starts with a wood blade then what playing level could justify later migration to ALC?
Edited by Dream1700 - 09/12/2018 at 2:51pm |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2892 |
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I think it is more a question of salary level than playing level. Sorry, could not resist. Interesting questions. If not a general level, maybe people could give some reasons and things to look at in your game that would help determine if you would benefit from a switch. Mark Edited by mjamja - 09/12/2018 at 3:10pm |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2332 |
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For purely technical reasons, 2000USATT level and progressing. Only then can one really discern the difference and see any advantage. Otherwise >1100USATT. Use the equipment that you want to, not what suits your playing style etc. Experiment, enjoy the journey. |
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Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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jpenmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 12/24/2008 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 2176 |
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There is no level. It's about preference . You could play a 5 ply wood blade all the way to a top 10 world ranking if you have the skill set.
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OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
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rocketman222
Gold Member Joined: 01/06/2007 Location: Walnut Creek,CA Status: Offline Points: 1152 |
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One thing that ALC blades help with is consistency, due to a large sweetspot, so developing players < 1500 can get a help in blocking etc, but the newer stiffer all-wood blades like TSP Swat, Mizuno fortius and BBC hinoki ghost also have giant sweet spots so I guess its more of a taste thing.
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TT newbie
Gold Member Joined: 11/25/2011 Location: Far Far Away Status: Offline Points: 1391 |
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Just said everything I would say. I used to play with 7-plies all my life, being a penholder SP. But I needed to have a larger sweetspot (because of blocking) and migrated to carbon.
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Hozuki
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2017 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 477 |
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The rule of thumb is: once you have mastered your FH and BH technique, have great consistency but not enough speed when counterlooping with max thickness rubbers, and you have tried some fast 7-ply All-wood blades and found them either too slow or too thick. So 2000 USATT rating could be a fair estimate. The increased sweetspot only actually helps you when your technique is advanced enough that you can consistently hit the blade in its sweetspot, and thus do not need the feedback of where you actually hit the ball anymore. But IMO, there is no need to ever change to a carbon blade for amateur loopers. Maybe for SP hitters, but for anybody else a fast 7ply + T05 is easily fast enough. |
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koshkin
Silver Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 522 |
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It is more of a taste thing than anything else. There are plenty of world class players who use all wood blades. I have tried a lot of different ones and in the end went back to an all wood blade since I prefer the feel. To each his own.
ILya
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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40+ balls lowered the level where this change might make sense. Those balls are heavier. Count me in the camp that says its a question of taste though.
See if a clubmate has one and try it, If you like it get one. |
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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I think the level of control is still the key factor.
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notfound123
Gold Member Joined: 01/18/2008 Location: MD, USA Status: Offline Points: 1022 |
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This. I read somewhere that many Korean players still play with a 5-ply korbel. Of course many switched to 7ply when the ball increased in size but you don’t have to go to the alc. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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I don't think the ALC blades I use lack "control". But I don't go changing equipment every other week so my brain knows what to expect. Motor learning and motor memory are real things. One other thing. Control of what exactly? The term is so vague as to be almost useless. To the OP I say again, just try one. The main effect the arylate has is to dampen out very high frequency vibrations. The carbon reduces some of the flex. Even a 1600 player will feel those effects. Some people like it and some don't. If you like it, stick with it. Constant equipment changes are not good. |
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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It's more about blade speed, not composition. When you have efficient enough technique that you can hit every ball before or at the top of bounce, you can go with faster setup. If you slow and often hit ball after top of bounce go with slower.
I had many carbon blades but play with cheap 5 ply yinhe blade:) But there is one more moment: the more money you invest the less is chance that you will quit the sport due to lack of success. :) |
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Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2574 |
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I currently have two blades: one is a 5-ply Koto outer wood (Hadraw VK) and the other is Koto ALC (TB ALC). I like both but I have a sense of better control with 5-ply during matches against higher ranked players (1900+ USATT). ALC is great attacking weapon, especially if you like the vibration free numb feel as Baal pointed out. I know players that said ZLC was not enough speed and they wanted something even faster, which sounded crazy too me but again its their preference. ALC can also be very controllable paired with the right rubbers. Also, there are ALC blades such as Freitas ALC that feel slower compared to TB ALC/Viscaria/ZJK ALC.... many variables out there. Try one before buying and see if you like the feel of it, in the end its all about preference since there isn't really a rule of thumb. There are many pros that still play with 5-ply wood and their game is still plenty fast which tells me they use whatever they use because of preference and feel.
Edited by DreiZ - 09/13/2018 at 2:16pm |
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Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm USATT: 1725 |
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yogi_bear
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Control of the ball even when doing full swing strokes. There i made it very specific.if you cannot consistently place the ball on the table when attacming with full swing strokes you do not need a faster blade. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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Actually I would argue that blades there too fast for the player's level affect short game the most. Service return, pushes, etc. That is probably where you see would be most likely to see it. I still think a developing player can use an ALC blade if they like the feel. Maybe not with Tenergy or MX-P. But with Vega or something like that.
That means if you try one make sure you do more than hit loops and counters when trying to decide if it might be good for you. |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
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Many not-so-distant champions used wood blades and probably more recent than we think. What real reason would you have to switch? I always say if you can't answer that question, you shouldn't switch.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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Because you tried one and you liked it. It's really the only reason that makes sense to me.
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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This is not good enough reason. I tried somebody's alc blade with particular rubber and liked it. Then I bought new same blade and same rubber and couldn't send ball to the other side of net, it was too slow.
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Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
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The usual alternative to what I suggest? Make an equipment choice because of stuff you read on the internet. It might work. It might not. It's pretty much a coin flip. Who do you believe? See for example, the advice given on this thread. It is all over the place. Regarding the notion that the same blade/rubber combination bought new is radically different from a clubmate's that one tries? Blades are made of wood so not identical. But with the pretty well known brands I have used over the last decades, mostly Btfly, some Donic, various ESN rubbers, I have never experienced something that dramatic. Not once. That goes back decades. This includes when I have bought new versions of blades I already use. . |
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kindof99
Premier Member Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4215 |
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I think more likely it is due to the rubbers. New rubbers take time to break in, and sometimes it can be totally different when it is new.
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garwor
Silver Member Joined: 06/02/2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 730 |
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Your advice is good of course, best way. I just added from my own experience that it doesn't work always.
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Equipment database
Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
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Dream1700
Super Member Joined: 12/02/2017 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 410 |
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Blade composition database is very informative https://stervinou.net/ttbdb/. You can search for the exact type of wood or synthetic material by ply.
Edit: link BBcode does not work for me.
Edited by Dream1700 - 09/17/2018 at 12:16pm |
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taczkid
Super Member Joined: 05/19/2016 Location: ILLINOIS Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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Just simply play with whatever you desire. If you like ALC, don't wait just go for it. At any level you can play with any setup its all just a matter of getting used to. I started playing USATT level 1400 my first tournament with Schlager Carbon and I think donic coppa silver. 12 years since my first USATT tournament and I still play the same Blade (Schlager Carbon) with T05 now. In my opinion once you find a blade/rubber setup that suits your style and you feel like you enjoy playing with it then stick to it. The longer you stay with same setup the better player you will be, as after a year+ of using the same setup you will realize that its not the equipment to blame its always yourself, either lack of training or other factors. If you like ALC I would not wait at all and just get the ALC you want, I would recommend you Viscaria or TB ALC (in my opinion the best 2 ALC blades out there) Also they sell and are used the most among pros and non-pros for the same reason - they are best ALCs. Just FYI they work great with Tenergy Rubbers (I always like T05 the best from all the Tenergy rubber series)
Good luck! |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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you bought same blade and rubber, but you did not prepare the rubber and assemble it correctly :D
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1583 |
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Nobody mentioned inner or outer carbon. Feel is quitw different. And it seems innerforce style construction is gaining some more popularity, with successful models like acoustic being offered in carbon inner ply.
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jfolsen
Gold Member Joined: 03/15/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1294 |
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1700, give or take. A slower and more controllable setup is ideal for developing proper strokes. Once your strokes are ingrained you can step up the speed.
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ClimbK2
Member Joined: 05/04/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 95 |
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I just tried an Accoustic Carbon Inner. It has great control, and would be at the top of my list for a first carbon blade. At a cheaper price point, and a good blade, is the Donic Senso Carbon. Both of these blades use softer, more flexible Limba wood. They each have a good wood feel. You could play with those at a 1500 rating IMO (just avoid Max fast rubber)
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DHS ML5 (W968), Hurricane 3, Dignics 09c
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1948 |
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Playing with 5 ply blade doesnt mean it will be slow. Franziska was playing with mazunov blade rated as off+ and is a 5ply blade |
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