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Why Mark V is still so popular ?

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    Posted: 10/26/2018 at 8:56pm
How many rating points did speed glue add? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitigoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2018 at 6:55pm
I used Mark V and was happy with it. On BH on Stiga Allround,
best I had for blocking the loops of the better players.
My son also uses it, on FH, while my other son uses Donic Coppa
(which was on sale). We are all intermediate players at best, though.

But this thread ignores Richard DeWitt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2018 at 1:47pm
Indeed.  When the Hungarians secretly discovered speed glue, it was in fact vulcanizing glue that they discovered.  And APW46 is right, ordinary stuff sold for specialty sports in new containers usually has the priced jacked up five-fold.  In my other sport, road cycling, they sell stuff you can rub onto your delicate private parts to avoid chaffing and irritation in your....  well the parts of the body in contact with the seat.  They sell it at bike shops for a fortune.  You can buy the identical material at a grocery store in the facial cleanser section for 1/5 the price.  Noxema, basically.  And so it was for TT glues until ITTF made some new rules (unenforceable for players) about what stuff could be in speed glues that were sold by companies with an ITTf approval.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2018 at 6:00am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:


I mean sure you might find one glue that for some reason is better than tt glues.
but in a general and broader sense I would always pick the tt glue first.
they were made exactly for that purpose.
 No, you have things the wrong way round, Vulcanizing/tyre/bike glues came first, The TT manufacturers and ITTF were not getting any money out of speed glue so commissioned the glue factories to take a few of the worst additives out so they could mark the price up massively and sell to gullible TT consumers. It was essentially the same glue than was developed for expanding rubber generally, not for table tennis. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/24/2018 at 1:46am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yep. But like APW46 said, totally illegal by ITTF rules (meaning you couldn't sell Pep Boys glue as TT glue after 1995 or there abouts). I suspect It had dichloroethane in It. It is ironic that Haifu makes a really good booster given that their speed glue was so bad.

Old Haifu speed glue (before 2008) was really impressive on DHS and hard friendship sponges.

It was not nearly as impressive on German or Japanese sponges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2018 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

People tired of paying for Tenergy and don't play a lot of tournaments?  Get some Mark V and glue it up with vulcanizing glue.  And enjoy.   

True. I have a solution that, IMHO, is far easier to implement / maintain: boost Baracuda with Falco Tempo Long. You'll be amazed by the results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2018 at 6:48pm
Actually before I switched to Bryce I used glued Mark V.  The top sheet is a bit like Tenergy actually.

People tired of paying for Tenergy and don't play a lot of tournaments?  Get some Mark V and glue it up with vulcanizing glue.  And enjoy.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adishorul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2018 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

Originally posted by adishorul adishorul wrote:

Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:

The fact remains the top sheet of Mark V is very consistent sheet to sheet. Yes it was best in the speed glued era however get a max thickness sheet, glue it 3-4 times with the latex based glue and it's performance for beginners to intermediate level players is nothing to sneeze at. I have played with a bazillion rubbers and still use max on my BH. It's not the fastest or spiniest but you get exactly what you put into the stroke. I still see way to many developing players trying to play with equipment that they are not ready for. With the proper strokes a player can still loop the hell out of the ball, counter with nice speed, receive service with control, and play a game with variation. If you are above 2000 level Mark V may fall a bit short but for the vast majority of us Mark V is perfectly fine even if it's a non-tensor. You know your not going to the Olympics peeps so play with something you can feel comfortable with according to your style of play and level. Classic rubbers still are viable in this new era of the sport....ribbit.


If I would start again as a beginner as I did 7 years ago I wouldn't use something like sriver or Mark v because these rubbers are very forgiving and you can be tricked that your shots are ok but they aren't and you can develope bad habits so IMHO the best way is to use a very thin rubber for maximum feeling but very unforgiven to know exactly when your shot is good or not. I guess some version of tenergy fx 1.7 mm would be perfect for this purpose. A thin layer of speed glue also is welcomed.



I occasionally hit with 2 players who are about 1000-1100 level.

One plays Viscaria with H3/T80, the other with some kind of ZJK blade with 2 T05. Changing to 1.7 Tenergy fx will have no effect at all on them.

Both have non existent strokes. They simply use the rubber to rebound the ball back. When doing simple FH-FH or BH-BH drills, if I feed them the ball perfectly in time then they can rebound the ball back to me ok. If the ball is at a different timing or position, they spray the ball all over the place. They do not play the ball, the ball plays them.

They have lousy strokes because their setups are way too fast for their ability level.

They would improve their games immensely if they switched to Mark V and actually learned how to do proper strokes.

A third player was doing the same thing as the two above and hired a private coach. The coach switched the player from a very fast setup to a DEF blade and improved quickly.



Obviously composite blades doesn't stay in the same equation with a beginner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2018 at 10:40am
Mark V was my first Japanese rubber, and then Sriver came the 2nd. They were so popular and relatively expensive at that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/23/2018 at 10:23am
Lost to a player with Mark V at the tournament in Austin this past weekend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/22/2018 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by adishorul adishorul wrote:

Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:

The fact remains the top sheet of Mark V is very consistent sheet to sheet. Yes it was best in the speed glued era however get a max thickness sheet, glue it 3-4 times with the latex based glue and it's performance for beginners to intermediate level players is nothing to sneeze at. I have played with a bazillion rubbers and still use max on my BH. It's not the fastest or spiniest but you get exactly what you put into the stroke. I still see way to many developing players trying to play with equipment that they are not ready for. With the proper strokes a player can still loop the hell out of the ball, counter with nice speed, receive service with control, and play a game with variation. If you are above 2000 level Mark V may fall a bit short but for the vast majority of us Mark V is perfectly fine even if it's a non-tensor. You know your not going to the Olympics peeps so play with something you can feel comfortable with according to your style of play and level. Classic rubbers still are viable in this new era of the sport....ribbit.


If I would start again as a beginner as I did 7 years ago I wouldn't use something like sriver or Mark v because these rubbers are very forgiving and you can be tricked that your shots are ok but they aren't and you can develope bad habits so IMHO the best way is to use a very thin rubber for maximum feeling but very unforgiven to know exactly when your shot is good or not. I guess some version of tenergy fx 1.7 mm would be perfect for this purpose. A thin layer of speed glue also is welcomed.



I occasionally hit with 2 players who are about 1000-1100 level.

One plays Viscaria with H3/T80, the other with some kind of ZJK blade with 2 T05. Changing to 1.7 Tenergy fx will have no effect at all on them.

Both have non existent strokes. They simply use the rubber to rebound the ball back. When doing simple FH-FH or BH-BH drills, if I feed them the ball perfectly in time then they can rebound the ball back to me ok. If the ball is at a different timing or position, they spray the ball all over the place. They do not play the ball, the ball plays them.

They have lousy strokes because their setups are way too fast for their ability level.

They would improve their games immensely if they switched to Mark V and actually learned how to do proper strokes.

A third player was doing the same thing as the two above and hired a private coach. The coach switched the player from a very fast setup to a DEF blade and improved quickly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adishorul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/22/2018 at 10:42am
Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:

The fact remains the top sheet of Mark V is very consistent sheet to sheet. Yes it was best in the speed glued era however get a max thickness sheet, glue it 3-4 times with the latex based glue and it's performance for beginners to intermediate level players is nothing to sneeze at. I have played with a bazillion rubbers and still use max on my BH. It's not the fastest or spiniest but you get exactly what you put into the stroke. I still see way to many developing players trying to play with equipment that they are not ready for. With the proper strokes a player can still loop the hell out of the ball, counter with nice speed, receive service with control, and play a game with variation. If you are above 2000 level Mark V may fall a bit short but for the vast majority of us Mark V is perfectly fine even if it's a non-tensor. You know your not going to the Olympics peeps so play with something you can feel comfortable with according to your style of play and level. Classic rubbers still are viable in this new era of the sport....ribbit.


If I would start again as a beginner as I did 7 years ago I wouldn't use something like sriver or Mark v because these rubbers are very forgiving and you can be tricked that your shots are ok but they aren't and you can develope bad habits so IMHO the best way is to use a very thin rubber for maximum feeling but very unforgiven to know exactly when your shot is good or not. I guess some version of tenergy fx 1.7 mm would be perfect for this purpose. A thin layer of speed glue also is welcomed.

Edited by adishorul - 10/22/2018 at 10:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/22/2018 at 2:39am
Anybody tried boosting mark v with falco?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bars Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/22/2018 at 1:16am
Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:

The fact remains the top sheet of Mark V is very consistent sheet to sheet. Yes it was best in the speed glued era however get a max thickness sheet, glue it 3-4 times with the latex based glue and it's performance for beginners to intermediate level players is nothing to sneeze at. I have played with a bazillion rubbers and still use max on my BH. It's not the fastest or spiniest but you get exactly what you put into the stroke. I still see way to many developing players trying to play with equipment that they are not ready for. With the proper strokes a player can still loop the hell out of the ball, counter with nice speed, receive service with control, and play a game with variation. If you are above 2000 level Mark V may fall a bit short but for the vast majority of us Mark V is perfectly fine even if it's a non-tensor. You know your not going to the Olympics peeps so play with something you can feel comfortable with according to your style of play and level. Classic rubbers still are viable in this new era of the sport....ribbit.
how is the rubber different after 4 layers of water glue. I assume just the weight, so same swing has more energy, bending the rubber/sponge more. I use extra layers for weight. The "best" player in my state recommends using the least amount of glue possible. Thoughts/ opinions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/22/2018 at 12:29am
We have digressed over the last 10 posts or so. The main question here in the OP is why Mark V is STILL popular.

Is it?

Should it be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2018 at 11:42pm
I don't think I ever used that one. I used one called XTra Seal but only in a can. It came in a tube too but that stuff wasn't as good. Turns out they still sell it, presumably to their intended customers, cyclists and motorists, not TT players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:

Does anyone remember a glue called "Vulcofux"? It was a voc glue used by cyclist to repair tires. It also happened to be the bomb for speed gluing back in the day. It was a secret weapon but the down side was it smelled horrible and the user needed a biohazard suit lol. :)


 
 Yes, it was the first stuff that I used in a wide yellow tin. Before it was called speed glue, most people just called it bike glue. are you sure it was not called Veloflux ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 11:44am
how long are we going to continue with this?
you will repeat the vulcanising is faster than fair chack.
I will repeat that fair chack is faster....
maybe we should just agree to disagree and that's it.

I mean sure you might find one glue that for some reason is better than tt glues.
but in a general and broader sense I would always pick the tt glue first.
they were made exactly for that purpose.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/20/2018 at 2:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 11:07am
Does anyone remember a glue called "Vulcofux"? It was a voc glue used by cyclist to repair tires. It also happened to be the bomb for speed gluing back in the day. It was a secret weapon but the down side was it smelled horrible and the user needed a biohazard suit lol. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The speed effect of speed glue was not the thing I liked best about it. A good glue job made rubber feel spinnier too. But there was a point of diminishing returns. Some days you could have a bad glue job. Too much glue. Or not enough. Or you didn't stretch the rubber just right. Or you got impatient. Or on really humid days or so it seemed. The next few hours of play sucked. Fortunately the next day you started all over again. One thing I like now is that my rubber tomorrow will be pretty much the same as today. But in the glue era you could get pretty high performance out of relatively cheap rubbers. Mark V with speed glue was good. But if I remember correctly it was about the same price as Bryce.
 All very true, you could have a really bad loss or a really good win because someone had a bad glue day, mostly in my experience due to putting too much on which delayed the peak. I used two thin layers 15 mins apart to try to get some consistency. I'm also with you Baal, I didn't like doing it but had to in order to compete. Before sp glue, you had to trade spin for pace to an extent, but with sp glue you got pace and spin, altogether more energy and with a slower arm and bigger sweet spot so timing was easier.
People like to talk about gears in a rubber, well for me gen 1 speed glues gave the ultimate in that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 8:03am
The speed effect of speed glue was not the thing I liked best about it. A good glue job made rubber feel spinnier too. But there was a point of diminishing returns. Some days you could have a bad glue job. Too much glue. Or not enough. Or you didn't stretch the rubber just right. Or you got impatient. Or on really humid days or so it seemed. The next few hours of play sucked. Fortunately the next day you started all over again. One thing I like now is that my rubber tomorrow will be pretty much the same as today. But in the glue era you could get pretty high performance out of relatively cheap rubbers. Mark V with speed glue was good. But if I remember correctly it was about the same price as Bryce.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 7:07am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

that's why the stories don't fit.
you are thinking about 1993, I'm thinking about 2007....
in 2007 I would take fair chack over vulcanising every time.
but it was expensive.
 lots of different types of vulcanising glue, the brands we used were Tiptop, Pang, and in the early days Veloflux, they were all faster that any of the glues sold by TT manufacturers. 
Having speed glued every single time I played and sometimes twice a day and playing 4/5 times a week between 1980 and the final glue ban, and I used fair chack from its introduction until the ban I can freely offer you the advice that fair chack and any of the other ITTF stamped glues were slower.
 One answer could be that the unregulated stuff was more difficult to get right, too much would make the sponge so soft it was unplayable for quite a while and would feel really mushy. It peaks after about an hour and starts to feel crisp on contact with a much enlarged sweet spot. To me, nothing has come close to a well glued up set up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 6:51am
that's why the stories don't match.
you are talking about 1993, I'm thinking about 2007....


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/20/2018 at 7:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 4:32am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

interesting subject.

can you provide any document that proves that speed glue products could not contain a certain amounts of voc?
I mean I can't just believe your word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_glue

The first generation of speed glues were not marketed by TT manufacturers. The second generation were marketed by TT manufacturers. 
The first generation were superior in performance to the second generation by a considerable margin, certainly discernable by the noise made on contact with the ball which was a deeper 'tock' sound. 
You could tell if a player was using 1st generation because the sponge would be covered in a black layer of solids. In England there was a distinct period of banned speed glue of any sort between 1993 and 1995
until the second generation of 'clean' speed glues were marketed by manufacturers. Everyone who played at the time will tell you that they were not as potent in performance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 9:02pm
Their concerns over certain solvents, and banning them, predated 2006 by some ten years. They didn't test for them in tournaments. TT manufacturers were supposed to follow the guideline. In 2006 maybe they were thinking that some glues sold by TT companies were not in compliance. I don't know that for a fact. It's been. 12 years. Anyway APW46 and I both played through the entire speed glue era and we are both telling you mostly the the same thing. Your results with vulcanizing glue may have depended some on the rubber you used then. I mostly used Bryce and later Bryce FX. It was amazing on those rubbers but I usually only used it if I had run out of regular TT speed glue because my sense was that it shortened rubber life and messier. Tibhar made something called Rapid Clean that didn't accumulate so much and produced an equally amazing effect. And the brush in the can was good which was important because we wanted the rubber to be the same each time we played.
So you couldn't just slop it on . Also it was possible to have too much speed glue effect IMHO. Especially with 38 mm balls. So opinions depend a bit on tastes, rubber choice, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 7:16pm
https://www.megaspin.net/download/speed-glue-ban/2006-ittf-glues_health_report.pdf

well in 2006 ittf ordered an analysis of speed glues..... probably until this point they didn't care much.
so the theory of tt speed glues being worse than random vulcanic glues is extremely hard to believe.

but we are all free to believe what we want.

have a good day buddy Smile


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 7:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 7:08pm
It wasnt the amount of vocs they regulated. It was certain specific solvents that they banned, including halogenated hyrdocarbons I think. Im not going to go and try to dig it up. I'm too lazy to do it , and honestly don't care enough.

In 2008 Butterfly Stiga and Tibhar all sold really powerful speed glues so they found stuff that worked well that the ITTF allowed. They all had a pretty strong smell, But then ITTF banned all of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:58pm
interesting subject.

can you provide any document that proves that speed glue products could not contain a certain amounts of voc?
I mean I can't just believe your word.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:54pm
Yep. But like APW46 said, totally illegal by ITTF rules (meaning you couldn't sell Pep Boys glue as TT glue after 1995 or there abouts). I suspect It had dichloroethane in It. It is ironic that Haifu makes a really good booster given that their speed glue was so bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

I used vulcanising glue for a long time after the glue ban.
the effect is not very good.
I just used it to glue the rubbers, not for the effect.
it was cheap.

today you can still get the haifu speed glue.
you will see it doesn't smell too much, so it's not all about the voc's.





The Haifu glue has almost no effect at all. I never really found it to be a speed glue really, never understood why anyone used it. I remember traveling to China in 2007. My first trip there actually. I couldn't bring speed glue on the plane so I bought Haifu in Chengdu. It was useless. I think I still may have it somewhere.

so all the companies who spent years developing speed glues know nothing.... but the "Pep Boys" from 30 years ago..... LOL
dont forget the 1st series viscaria with f l separated!!!

as for the smell, I always liked the smell of gasoline.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 6:54pm
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