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Why Mark V is still so popular ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2018 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Mark V M2 was brilliant with speed glue, similar to Bryce.


Question: these rubbers like Mark V M2 or Sriver that were great with speed glue - why are they relatively unoptimal with boosters?


Because boosters and speed glue don't work the same way. They are seeking to produce a similar effect. Speed glue effect is much greater and requires that the solvent slowly vaporizes into the pores in the sponge. That is easily detected by machines now. The effect is short lived. Boosters are always somewhat oily, and can't be very volatile. And they can last for weeks rather than hours. So rubber a optimized for one won't always respond well to the other. In general it isxeasiervto develop effective speed glue than an effective booster. Some of the best is vulcanizing compounds used for tire repair. You can find them in auto repair stores or online.


Maybe you re using the wrong booster


You are clueless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2018 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Mark V M2 was brilliant with speed glue, similar to Bryce.


Question: these rubbers like Mark V M2 or Sriver that were great with speed glue - why are they relatively unoptimal with boosters?


Because boosters and speed glue don't work the same way. They are seeking to produce a similar effect. Speed glue effect is much greater and requires that the solvent slowly vaporizes into the pores in the sponge. That is easily detected by machines now. The effect is short lived. Boosters are always somewhat oily, and can't be very volatile. And they can last for weeks rather than hours. So rubber a optimized for one won't always respond well to the other. In general it isxeasiervto develop effective speed glue than an effective booster. Some of the best is vulcanizing compounds used for tire repair. You can find them in auto repair stores or online.


Maybe you re using the wrong booster


You are clueless.

Why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote henningf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2018 at 6:57am
Boosters aren’t that different, most difference is how much they tend to soften the sponge. Remember: Speed gule releases a lot of VOC´s fast, boosters work slower/contains a lower grade of VOC’s so that it can’t be detected by the testing equipment. (Many claim that «their booster is VOC free»...... But.....)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2018 at 12:01pm
Boosters are nothing like speed glue, especially 1st generation speed glue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king_pong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2018 at 3:46am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Boosters are nothing like speed glue, especially 1st generation speed glue. 


When would this break have happened? It appears to me that the rallies were faster in, say, 1987 than the same players in 1994. Some time in between there, was there a change made to the glue?

Edited by king_pong - 10/18/2018 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2018 at 8:18am
Originally posted by king_pong king_pong wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Boosters are nothing like speed glue, especially 1st generation speed glue. 


When would this break have happened? It appears to me that te rallies were faster in say 1987 than rhe same players in 1994. Some time in between there, was there a change made to the glue?


Maybe because fasterand older glues were using harmful solvents like benzene then ittf took control and forced companies to use less harmful glues that werent so fast

Edited by mykonos96 - 10/18/2018 at 8:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2018 at 10:53am
Is Mark V actually still popular? I haven't seen anyone playing with that for at least 3 or 4 years. Even when I lived in Florida, the only people using Mark V were a few retired dudes in their 70s. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/18/2018 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Is Mark V actually still popular? I haven't seen anyone playing with that for at least 3 or 4 years. Even when I lived in Florida, the only people using Mark V were a few retired dudes in their 70s. 

IMHO, it is 'virtually popular'. Number of people who heard of it and believe that it is a good 'safe' rubber to recommend to strangers  vastly exceeds the number of people who actually are using it (talk about brand recognition!). 

Tenergy probably belongs in that category as well (I've heard countless stories about how great and special it is well before I actually got a chance to try it), but it occupies 'professional' level, and no one is recommending it to beginners - because why would you, that's what Mark V is for :). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by king_pong king_pong wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Boosters are nothing like speed glue, especially 1st generation speed glue. 


When would this break have happened? It appears to me that the rallies were faster in, say, 1987 than the same players in 1994. Some time in between there, was there a change made to the glue?

The break happened in the 1993 to 1995 years. Until then speed glue was completely unregulated, you just used what was available from commercial Tyre garages, and bike shops. Speed glue is vulcanising glue, used in the industry to expand rubber and seal a patch on a tyre repair so that is does not leak air.

The first generation was more potent, more harmful and contained more VOC's ( volatile organic compounds) but more potent as a table tennis booster. 
 
The move from the ITTF, who had no control over the use was to ban it, led by the ETTA, who did actually ban the use for two years. No other national body followed  the ban, then in 1996 the ITTF sanctioned the second generation of Speed glues, with a lower content of VOC, deemed 'clean' and safer for general use. 
The ITTF now had more control, and of course, gave licence to TT manufacturers to produce and sell speed glue. 
With that licence came corporate responsibility, and the ITTF found itself in a place where they were actually sanctioning a product that could be detrimental the health.

that is why Speed glue was banned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 3:31pm
the speed glue offered by tt brands was waaaaaaaaay superior to any cheap vulcanising glue.
for example the butterfly fair chack would last for days and it was more potent than any non tt glue.
but it was not cheap.
that's why many coaches made their own home made glue and sold it to the players at cheaper prices.
they would use anything.
sometimes vulcanising, sometimes regular rubber cement with tons of thinner.
each one had their own formula.
but from my experience fair chack was unbeatable.
just a very thin layer and the rubber became a missile.

I remember pro players putting 3-4 layers of glue before playing a match.
in pro tournaments there was a room just for gluing where everybody would inhale all the toxics lolLOL


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 3:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

the speed glue offered by tt brands was waaaaaaaaay superior to any cheap vulcanising glue.

That statement is so so wrong. Goodness knows where you got that information from.  The speed glue offered by TT brands was about 50% less effective than the the original 1st generation unregulated speed glues. I stake my life on that.  The unregulated glues had more VOC's, how could less be more superior? rubbish my friend, get your facts right lol, I lived and played through this period.
 
Tiptop, Pang, Veloflux, Brand names of first gen speed glues, the second generation were watered down versions offered by the TT companies, and most definitely less effective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

the speed glue offered by tt brands was waaaaaaaaay superior to any cheap vulcanising glue.

That statement is so so wrong. Goodness knows where you got that information from.  The speed glue offered by TT brands was about 50% less effective than the the original 1st generation unregulated speed glues. I stake my life on that.  The unregulated glues had more VOC's, how could less be more superior? rubbish my friend, get your facts right lol, I lived and played through this period.

up to the ban of speed glue around 2008 nobody cared about voc's.
the aim was to make a better product, that's all.
why would butterfly decrease the quality of their "fair chack" with time?

this is starting to look like the myth that old viscaria plays many times better than a new viscaria...


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 5:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

the speed glue offered by tt brands was waaaaaaaaay superior to any cheap vulcanising glue.

That statement is so so wrong. Goodness knows where you got that information from.  The speed glue offered by TT brands was about 50% less effective than the the original 1st generation unregulated speed glues. I stake my life on that.  The unregulated glues had more VOC's, how could less be more superior? rubbish my friend, get your facts right lol, I lived and played through this period.

up to the ban of speed glue around 2008 nobody cared about voc's.
the aim was to make a better product, that's all.
why would butterfly decrease the quality of their "fair chack" with time?

this is starting to look like the myth that old viscaria plays many times better than a new viscaria...
 check you accuracy of history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:21pm
ITTF banned some solvents in speed glue several years before the 2008 ban on all speed glue. It was for safety reasons. Some were pretty nasty for sure. The solvents they banned were the most volatile and made the most effective speed glues. So in the late 90s and early 2000s the best speed glue you could buy was in an auto parts store, not at a TT shop (assuming you didn't care what you breathed and only cared about maximum effect. Halogenated hydrocarbons and such, quite toxic to the liver). APW46 is right.

The irony is that speed glues sold in 2008 by TT companies were quite safe even though they smelled bad. You might still be able to search and find some of the speed glue patents from around 2000 to see what the issues were.

They produced much much more intense effect than boosters today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:31pm
I used vulcanising glue for a long time after the glue ban.
the effect is not very good.
I just used it to glue the rubbers, not for the effect.
it was cheap.

today you can still get the haifu speed glue.
you will see it doesn't smell too much, so it's not all about the voc's.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 6:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

I used vulcanising glue for a long time after the glue ban.
the effect is not very good.

in my mind butterfly fair chack will forever be the most powerful glue.....

today you can still get the haifu speed glue.
you will see it doesn't smell too much, so it's not all about the voc's.


Not all vulcanizing glues were equally good. Some sucked. My favorite was from Pep Boys but I added about 5% lighter fluid. That recipe is for you kids at home to try,

I always liked Tibhar speed glue the best.

If a bird flew close to my club circa 2005 it would get drunk from the fumes. To be honest, I don't miss it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

I used vulcanising glue for a long time after the glue ban.
the effect is not very good.
I just used it to glue the rubbers, not for the effect.
it was cheap.

today you can still get the haifu speed glue.
you will see it doesn't smell too much, so it's not all about the voc's.





The Haifu glue has almost no effect at all. I never really found it to be a speed glue really, never understood why anyone used it. I remember traveling to China in 2007. My first trip there actually. I couldn't bring speed glue on the plane so I bought Haifu in Chengdu. It was useless. Or almost useless. You could get just as much speed glue effect with rubber cement.. I think I still may have it somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:41pm
 

Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 6:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:47pm
To bad you edited your last comment. On second thought, maybe better that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

I used vulcanising glue for a long time after the glue ban.
the effect is not very good.
I just used it to glue the rubbers, not for the effect.
it was cheap.

today you can still get the haifu speed glue.
you will see it doesn't smell too much, so it's not all about the voc's.





The Haifu glue has almost no effect at all. I never really found it to be a speed glue really, never understood why anyone used it. I remember traveling to China in 2007. My first trip there actually. I couldn't bring speed glue on the plane so I bought Haifu in Chengdu. It was useless. I think I still may have it somewhere.

so all the companies who spent years developing speed glues know nothing.... but the "Pep Boys" from 30 years ago..... LOL
dont forget the 1st series viscaria with f l separated!!!

as for the smell, I always liked the smell of gasoline.


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 6:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:54pm
Yep. But like APW46 said, totally illegal by ITTF rules (meaning you couldn't sell Pep Boys glue as TT glue after 1995 or there abouts). I suspect It had dichloroethane in It. It is ironic that Haifu makes a really good booster given that their speed glue was so bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 6:58pm
interesting subject.

can you provide any document that proves that speed glue products could not contain a certain amounts of voc?
I mean I can't just believe your word.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 7:08pm
It wasnt the amount of vocs they regulated. It was certain specific solvents that they banned, including halogenated hyrdocarbons I think. Im not going to go and try to dig it up. I'm too lazy to do it , and honestly don't care enough.

In 2008 Butterfly Stiga and Tibhar all sold really powerful speed glues so they found stuff that worked well that the ITTF allowed. They all had a pretty strong smell, But then ITTF banned all of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 7:16pm
https://www.megaspin.net/download/speed-glue-ban/2006-ittf-glues_health_report.pdf

well in 2006 ittf ordered an analysis of speed glues..... probably until this point they didn't care much.
so the theory of tt speed glues being worse than random vulcanic glues is extremely hard to believe.

but we are all free to believe what we want.

have a good day buddy Smile


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/19/2018 at 7:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/19/2018 at 9:02pm
Their concerns over certain solvents, and banning them, predated 2006 by some ten years. They didn't test for them in tournaments. TT manufacturers were supposed to follow the guideline. In 2006 maybe they were thinking that some glues sold by TT companies were not in compliance. I don't know that for a fact. It's been. 12 years. Anyway APW46 and I both played through the entire speed glue era and we are both telling you mostly the the same thing. Your results with vulcanizing glue may have depended some on the rubber you used then. I mostly used Bryce and later Bryce FX. It was amazing on those rubbers but I usually only used it if I had run out of regular TT speed glue because my sense was that it shortened rubber life and messier. Tibhar made something called Rapid Clean that didn't accumulate so much and produced an equally amazing effect. And the brush in the can was good which was important because we wanted the rubber to be the same each time we played.
So you couldn't just slop it on . Also it was possible to have too much speed glue effect IMHO. Especially with 38 mm balls. So opinions depend a bit on tastes, rubber choice, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 4:32am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

interesting subject.

can you provide any document that proves that speed glue products could not contain a certain amounts of voc?
I mean I can't just believe your word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_glue

The first generation of speed glues were not marketed by TT manufacturers. The second generation were marketed by TT manufacturers. 
The first generation were superior in performance to the second generation by a considerable margin, certainly discernable by the noise made on contact with the ball which was a deeper 'tock' sound. 
You could tell if a player was using 1st generation because the sponge would be covered in a black layer of solids. In England there was a distinct period of banned speed glue of any sort between 1993 and 1995
until the second generation of 'clean' speed glues were marketed by manufacturers. Everyone who played at the time will tell you that they were not as potent in performance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpungpeng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 6:51am
that's why the stories don't match.
you are talking about 1993, I'm thinking about 2007....


Edited by pingpungpeng - 10/20/2018 at 7:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 7:07am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

that's why the stories don't fit.
you are thinking about 1993, I'm thinking about 2007....
in 2007 I would take fair chack over vulcanising every time.
but it was expensive.
 lots of different types of vulcanising glue, the brands we used were Tiptop, Pang, and in the early days Veloflux, they were all faster that any of the glues sold by TT manufacturers. 
Having speed glued every single time I played and sometimes twice a day and playing 4/5 times a week between 1980 and the final glue ban, and I used fair chack from its introduction until the ban I can freely offer you the advice that fair chack and any of the other ITTF stamped glues were slower.
 One answer could be that the unregulated stuff was more difficult to get right, too much would make the sponge so soft it was unplayable for quite a while and would feel really mushy. It peaks after about an hour and starts to feel crisp on contact with a much enlarged sweet spot. To me, nothing has come close to a well glued up set up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 8:03am
The speed effect of speed glue was not the thing I liked best about it. A good glue job made rubber feel spinnier too. But there was a point of diminishing returns. Some days you could have a bad glue job. Too much glue. Or not enough. Or you didn't stretch the rubber just right. Or you got impatient. Or on really humid days or so it seemed. The next few hours of play sucked. Fortunately the next day you started all over again. One thing I like now is that my rubber tomorrow will be pretty much the same as today. But in the glue era you could get pretty high performance out of relatively cheap rubbers. Mark V with speed glue was good. But if I remember correctly it was about the same price as Bryce.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2018 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The speed effect of speed glue was not the thing I liked best about it. A good glue job made rubber feel spinnier too. But there was a point of diminishing returns. Some days you could have a bad glue job. Too much glue. Or not enough. Or you didn't stretch the rubber just right. Or you got impatient. Or on really humid days or so it seemed. The next few hours of play sucked. Fortunately the next day you started all over again. One thing I like now is that my rubber tomorrow will be pretty much the same as today. But in the glue era you could get pretty high performance out of relatively cheap rubbers. Mark V with speed glue was good. But if I remember correctly it was about the same price as Bryce.
 All very true, you could have a really bad loss or a really good win because someone had a bad glue day, mostly in my experience due to putting too much on which delayed the peak. I used two thin layers 15 mins apart to try to get some consistency. I'm also with you Baal, I didn't like doing it but had to in order to compete. Before sp glue, you had to trade spin for pace to an extent, but with sp glue you got pace and spin, altogether more energy and with a slower arm and bigger sweet spot so timing was easier.
People like to talk about gears in a rubber, well for me gen 1 speed glues gave the ultimate in that.
The Older I get, The better I was.
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