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Dangers of waist rotation |
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Interesting choice on your coach's part to demonstrate that. I've noticed players, both amateurs and pros roll on their back foot like that when hitting in place. I've seen clips of FZD doing that, but can't find that clip, but here's a very high level amateur doing it. He's got a monster FH by the way. Long video, so you have to seek to see the part with the side view of him hitting. I just think these guys have very young and flexible ankle joints that can accommodate the slight rolling action. I've never thought the rolling actually contributes to the stroke quality. Therefore, it's important to know the context in which your coach shared this information or, if he indeed does, why he believes it's crucial to roll the foot like that at all. Other than warming up in place, more often than not, players don't nail and roll on their back foot like that.
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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I need to see back views of thoracic vs lumbar rotation side by side for comparison to confirm, but so far I've gathered that lumbar rotation involves the natural rotation of the lumber region relative to the pelvis, whereas isolated thoracic rotation involves contracting the core and immobilizing the lumber region/waist to minimize its rotation relative to the pelvis, and rotating the thoracic region only. Both involves rotation of the shoulders relative to the pelvis.
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FruitLoop
Super Member Joined: 09/20/2018 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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You should read about the valsalva maneuver, used extensively in weightlifting and powerlifting but really relevant to any sport where you need to stablisis the trunk.
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aerial
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2015 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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after reading and watching the vids related to thoracic versus lumbar flexion, i think it's safe to say the former is better than the latter
also it got me thinking to the forehand loop videos of harimoto, ma long, fan zhendong, and zhang jike from the looks of it, it looks like zjk is the only one that keeps his feet more pointed forwards, with little flaring to the side, whereas fzd flares a little bit, and ma long and harimoto pretty much make their right foot parallel with the table (right foot pointing right) is it a coincidence that zjk is the one that is pretty much washed up due to injury of his lower back? although, with ma long's recent knee injury... it seems like injuries are just a matter of time for all athletes
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yep the core bracing I used is pretty much the Valsalva maneuver I learnt in powerlifting, which is why I was talking about air management, you can't do a Valsalva without air in the diaphragm.... So I borrowed the boxing breathing techniques of breathing in deep before the point to perform the Valsalva, and then exhaling just a sharp burst of air with every exertion making sure to lose only a little air to maintain the Valsalva, and after about 5-6 exhalations when I'm left with about 50% air in the tank I breathed in deep again to strengthen the Valsalva again... This makes sure that my core is braced pretty much all the time and I'm able to get more than enough air. Edit: I can see why Harimoto likes to shout lol...he's been trapping air inside his diaphragm for the entire point! It would feel good to let it all out in a shout hahaha....just joking of course
Edited by blahness - 03/22/2019 at 5:46pm |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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You can see ZJKs issue, he drops his right shoulder putting his trunk into flexion placing huge compessive forces on his right lumbar. It seems that Waldner, Timo and him do it a lot which explains why their lower backs have been damaged a lot more than other players. Fan Zhendong is mostly hip rotation with a bit of waist, Ma Long used to do waist rotation but he fixed it and now it's almost a pure hip rotation. Harimoto is the only one on the tour doing thoracic rotation, his waist is locked very tight if you look at the videos. Thoracic rotation has a signature, the shoulders will rotate about 45 degrees more than the hips (this is impossible with waist rotation) leaving the elbows very visible from the front view during the extreme end of the backswing, also you can see a clear straight line through the waist and hips. I did mine in the mirror and it looks exactly like Harimoto...
Edited by blahness - 03/22/2019 at 5:28pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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That guy looks a lot like a 2700+ player that was in the US for a while. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hi fatt, the gym belts are way too heavy for TT, instead I tried an effective low tech solution last night. With your exercise shorts tighten the strings hard at the waist so that it exerts a compressive force onto your waist, this helps in bracing the core and also you can feel it anytime you try to engage the waist.
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aerial
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2015 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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this topic reminds me of the time i pulled my lower back on a loop off of a dead junk rubber floaty ball...
i definitely had a low backswing, dropping my shoulders and i didn't even make the shot and injured myself at this point that was like four to five years ago but the injury still haunts me moral of the story is try to not have lower back flexion to prevent injury? but then when looking at professional players looping against backspin, there is always going to be some level of dropped shoulder... but i guess the knees are bent low enough and the lower back is kept straight enough to not cause injury?
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Thanks for the honesty in sharing your experience, as you can see players who dropped their shoulders often (Waldner, Timo Boll, Michael Maze, Zhang Jike) all eventually destroyed their lower backs. Professional and amateur players have been using the medically unsafe technique for decades. You can loop backspin without dropping your shoulders, by using the biggest muscles in your body ie your quads.
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FruitLoop
Super Member Joined: 09/20/2018 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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Ideally youd almost want the opposite to this imo. Baggy waist that you have to brace into to stop your shorts falling down...lol. That's literally all weightlifting belts are for btw. Contrary to common belief they do no supporting of the lower back whatsoever themselves, it's the bracing of the abs against the belt that does the supporting.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Wait what? That's mindblowing...so you're saying that actually it's my core that has been doing all the work and the tightened shorts didn't exactly help haha...it did serve a useful purpose though, having it tight makes it such that whenever I tried to rotate or bend my waist (bad habits die hard) I rub against the fabric which tells me I'm trying to do an illegal movement lol...
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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I believe you're correct, judging by the pair of moles and his ears.
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mickd
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I was going to say... after seeing the video and his demonstration, that would have to be one of the best amateur players in the world lol. Makes sense he's 2700+.
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Amateur in the sense that he doesn't play on the pro tour for a living. The amateur field in China is very deep indeed.
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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How come he s amateur?
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maurice101
Member Joined: 02/24/2017 Location: australia Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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What about wearing one of the neopreme elastic fabric belts designed for lower back issues? I got one and I am going to try it out. I think it will give me feedback when I do waist rotation that could be helpful. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Haha that's a bit extreme but I reckon it'll do the job of giving you useful signals!
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FruitLoop
Super Member Joined: 09/20/2018 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 405 |
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Quite a lot of veteran players use this type of thing.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Here's an article on thoracic rotation in golf...
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le xex
Super Member Joined: 07/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 252 |
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thanks for posting this topic... I have been having lower back issues lately as well so it has been good reading the replies. From my experience, backhand chop and forehand loop strokes have been the most problematic with lower back. I think I have to take a lot of time off and rethink my game and approach to table tennis. Especially as I am getting older and also not getting coaching from a regular basis to monitor my technique I notice a lot more body aches, mostly lower back and left knee and sometimes my right wrist. Perhaps it’s not worth playing this game given the potential consequences.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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That's sad to hear :( if you really love the game then retraining to adopt healthier techniques could be possible but will take some time. (That said it didn't take me that long to adopt thoracic rotation, just a week of shadow practice and one or two practice sessions)... Knee issues could be due to inadequate rotation at the feet to support hip rotation, like what many ppl said here...
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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I was having some issues with the backhand chop as well. What worked better for me was moving my feet first and actually going toward the ball, instead of staying planted and reaching out, twisting to contact the ball. That allows a more neutral spine on most of the shots and only on the very hard ones do I have to reach for. Doing so I changed the ratio though from twisting on most shots to maintaining a neutral spine on the majority
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Watched two videos recently on the hip rotation issue... I think he has a really good explanation (it's a Chinese video though)... The method of tying a long rod to the waist and the shoulders to illustrate the relative rotation is genius lol....
The only thing he's still recommending which is bad is dropping the right shoulder which is demonstrably unhealthy for the lower back... He also demonstrates rolling the feet similar to mickd's video, and the way to push off the right foot, which is the same way that a basketball player pushes off the ground to make a slamdunk, and looks exactly like a kickboxer initiating a kick (hint it's not pushing off the heel!). Apparently he's saying that NBA players can produce a ton (1000kgf) of force just from that action alone. Edit: the best analogy of the push off i can think of is like going to a tiptoe position for your right foot. Checked a bit further and it's basically mobilizing your calves to help out. For the hip rotation, he says that many amateurs think of a more translation movement but aren't actually rotating, it's the rotation which is the most important and you can demonstrate it easily by tying a rod to the hips lol... He also demonstrated an exercise for hip rotation using resistance bands which the CNT apparently are using, focusing on the hip rotation (you have to brace your core hard for this), the argument is that it's easy for us to do it wrong in table tennis because the ball is so light, once we increase the load it's more likely that the more inefficient methods will be eliminated) Edited by blahness - 03/25/2019 at 9:06pm |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Some good stuff, alright! I've been using the thoracic rotation pretty much exclusively, with minimal hip involvement as I try to sort out the body mechanics. Anyway, have not had any issues with the low back anymore, whereas I normally would feel discomfort there and might even be hobbling around some after a lengthy playing session. Cancelling the lumbar rotation has really reduced, if not eliminated the back issues there.
Shot quality wise, I'm still tinkering to get my body working in unison (without overthinking and slowing down the movement...) but the loops and such are still quite powerful when needed. I don't feel any real loss of force when playing. The only short term problem I face now is the occasional brain lapse where I freeze before starting the stroke and wonder which part I'm supposed to be moving! Just try to remember, squeeze the gut and rotate the chest!
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Glad I'm not the only one enjoying the benefits :) Same for me, I used to have some lower back soreness after playing, it just disappeared after I started to do thoracic rotation! Btw, this is a really fast switch of technique Next on the list will be the hip rotation hahah....
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Hi fatt, yes this is indeed the case to ensure that we're not hurting our lower backs!
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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No worries fatt, i felt that it's definitely something important to acknowledge in the sport! Would definitely recommend making this thread a sticky to spread the knowledge more widely.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Btw am curious how are you bracing the core, I've been using the Valsalva maneuver which tbh maybe is too overkill and not the best way for TT (I had a blocked nose yesterday and didn't know how to breathe properly at all). Do you just contract your core muscles without sucking in air?
Edited by blahness - 03/27/2019 at 6:18pm |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mickd
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I feel like for most people, unless you're an aspiring junior or someone aiming for the top, the best would just be to rotate at the hips, keeping your waist and shoulders together.
During match play, you'll probably be out of position, so you'll end up rotating certain parts more or less depending on the incoming shot. But during practice, keeping it all together seems like a safe compromise. Also, maybe this is why I've heard Ishikawa Kasumi in the past say to tighten your core during shots.
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