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ESN alternatives to D05, T05H |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Yes, boosting R50 with one layer is where it's at...
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SmackDAT
Platinum Member Joined: 01/01/2012 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 2231 |
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Boosting R50 is great with 2 thin layers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Ooooo you're all so awful. But I like you.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Haven't tried very many of the 50 Degree plus ESN's but The Rhyzer 50 pro is a great rubber and very boost friendly from using it a while. Donic Z1 another good rubber maybe a bit softer feeling and suited a bit more to backhand.
Couldn't recommend them enough. It's great that there are now so many good options to play with. |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Over the past few weeks, I have tried:
Winner: Gewo. Of course, this is for my personal preference for hardness level for FH rubber, etc. It corrects what I saw were important deficiencies in the EL Pro 48: that of the throw angle reduction when you increase power. It also has more power and spin than the EL Pro 48. Only thing it does worse is serving (for which, IMHO, EL Pro 48 was the best rubber I have used). Also, the topsheet of EL Pro 50 Hard (29-021) is different from that of the EL Pro 48 (29-019). It is stiffer and more suitable for a power game. I haven't done a detailed comparison with Dignics or T05H, but the EL Pro 50 Hard is the best ESN rubber I have ever used. Edited by slevin - 07/17/2019 at 9:04pm |
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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There are none. Tenergy is tenergy because it's tenergy. No rubber out there is as forgiving as t05, there's spinner rubber, faster rubber, harder rubber. Tenergy is regarded as #1 rubber is because of it's forgiveness, even if you are out of position you can still create a quality shot consistently. Any other rubber people mentioned in this post are trash. If you are above 1800ish, it's around time you switch to tenergy, the amount of dwell time it gives will give you positive feed back and improve your technique. Trash rubbers like r47, g-1, bluefire, xioms etc... will create negative feedback and stagnate your improvement.
What I mean by positive feedback. When you use tenergy, you feel like you can do anything, you will start to do more and more and start develop your ball feel. Other ESN rubber will simply straight out miss, overshoots or down the net it goes, it creates a negative feedback and make you scare to try to do more. I am assuming this forum are adults amps only. If you are training everyday, it doesn't matter what rubber you are using because you develop your feel via multiball and repetitiveness, but lots of us do not have that luxury. Also durability, a used t05 might look old but it's still very playable. Rubbers like mxp,xiom everytime i change a new sheet i was like "oh wow that's very different"
Edited by hunkeelin - 07/17/2019 at 10:31pm |
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ericd937
Gold Member Joined: 06/01/2012 Location: Saigon, Vietnam Status: Offline Points: 1191 |
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I think one could make a good argument that Dignics is as good or better than Tenergy. 😊
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Current Setup: TBS FH T80/BH D80
Official USATT Rating 1815 Current estimated level: 1800-1900. |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Either a troll job or clearly not up to the times. ESN has advanced a lot over the times. Most ESN rubbers back in the day were 45 deg and frankly not that good. That has changed. I can't use T05 precisely because it is unforgiving and low dwell relative to ESN rubbers (like EL Pro 48) or does not grip the ABS ball as good (though, Dignics does). You live in the US, do you? The top players here generally have better financial resources to use any rubber they want relative to players from most other parts of the world. If T05 is the best, then that is what they'd use. Back in the day, practically every player on the US men's national team (Kanak, Adam Hugh, Tim Wang, etc) used T05 on FH. Now, how many players on the men's national team use Tenergy 05 on FH? Take for example the team for the 2019 PanAm championships that has just been announced a week ago? The answer is precisely zero. What about the women? One out of four (the weakest one). That does not mean that Butterfly isn't good - T05H & Dignics are great & clearly better options on FH than T05. But then, you throw your 'forgiveness' argument out of the window. And my contention is that the new, hard ESN stuff is a better competitor to these hard rubbers than the old 45 deg sh!t was to T05. I have six sheets of Dignics lying around and can't bring myself around to use even one of them with so much quality for around $35 available. Edited by slevin - 07/18/2019 at 9:10am |
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bard romance
Gold Member Joined: 02/18/2016 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 1185 |
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Regarding the national team comment - most of them are using Hurricane, not ESN rubbers, except for those who are JOOLA sponsored.
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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On the men's side, only 1 of the 4 always used H3N on FH. Another (NK) was a perennial T05 user whose level jumped a few levels (especially in his serve, return of serve & short game) after he switched to H3N on both sides of his HL5. And the best player also was a perennial T05 user who switched to a harder, better, 'less forgiving' rubber. The 4th player has been the scourge of all chinese coaches on the East coast & has grown up using Joola rubbers since he was a kid. Even in the international circuit, even Dima was recently photographed using Dignics both sides. Timo changed from a T05 FH. So did Harimoto, WCT, Lin Yun Ju and the others. At this level, it is very hard to force change but it happened. Even on BH, so many players (like Ding Ning, Lin Gaoyuan, Dima, LYJ, Harimoto, etc) switched away from T05. So, yes, in a nutshell, T05 is good (was better with the old ball) but not the end-all be-all. Anyways, sorry for the digression from the main thread topic.
Edited by slevin - 07/18/2019 at 9:31am |
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bard romance
Gold Member Joined: 02/18/2016 Location: FL Status: Offline Points: 1185 |
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My point was more that people aren't exactly rushing to go for ESN rubbers now either. But yes, there does seem to be a mass shift towards harder rubbers now. Is Kanak using Dignics?
Edited by bard romance - 07/18/2019 at 9:35am |
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DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
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Thank you for your comments. This boosting of the ESN hard sponges seems counterintuitive. In general, boosting softens the rubber. It is said that Hurricane is boosted consistently because it plays like a brick without boost. What is the positive effect of boosting the ESN hard sponges, as an improvement over the out-of-the-package version? And, is it not the case that the implication of this boosting is that the sponge is too hard for the specific user that favors the feel of the boost? I presume a 50 degree boosting would result in, say, a 49 degree sponge hardness? Thanks,
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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A lot of what players use comes from emulating the pro's equipment. At the pro level, sponsorship is a must (not just providing equipment but paying players to use it). It is tough for the European companies like Andro, Gewo, Donic (which, if you dig deeper, are just brands that table tennis stores started - yes, many of these 'companies' are owned by mom'n'pop table tennis shops) to compete with behemoths like Butterfly or DHS in providing sponsorship money / equipment to pros. Especially because both the products that Butterfly introduced in response to this increased competition (T05H & D05) are very good & clearly better than T05. But the difference in quality at the 50 deg or higher hardness scales between Butterfly and ESN is not that high at all, especially given the price differential. T05H is a fantastic rubber. But, I prefer the Gewo EL Pro 50 Hard over T05H even if they both were $35.
Kanak switched to T05H on FH. |
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ashishsharmaait
Silver Member Joined: 02/27/2013 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 914 |
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You can try Mizuno Q5. You will not be disappointed. The overall feel is a bit softer than T05, but the end result is the same. On the harder end, if you can handle a 50 degree sponge, you should be able to switch to a boosted Hurricane 39 or a Chinese Hybrid (try QiJi with blue sponge). If you don't mind boosting once every 10-12 days, nothing beats a boosted Hurricane 40. A boosted Hurricane commercial easily equals if not beats most other rubbers for the FH.
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7220 |
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definitely, Omega 7 Asia
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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I was tempted to try O7A after reading your review. But then I saw this in TTD:
52.5 deg rubber is close to 05fx??? Come on now! Just kidding: I tried O7Pro and love it. Only problem is that trajectory turns flatter when you hit harder (I like arc to be maintained). If O7A does not have that problem, then that's great. But I'm done searching on FH rubbers (after my year-long tryst with H3N) for now. Edited by slevin - 07/18/2019 at 12:05pm |
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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I've 'held' an o7A, the topsheet feels softer and the pimples are spaced a bit further apart than the nexxus El pro 50/53( I own the 53, but I assume both the 'hard' series nexxus rubbers have the same top), so yeah I guess you should stick to the pro 50.
I'm giving t0H a try since a few weeks, it 'feels' almost similar to the El pro 53, as in the same bat angle and stroke will work for both. However, the pro53 holds the ball quite a bit longer and hence you get a better sense of control. I hated the t05H when I tried it first, however, I liked it a lot better after getting used to the pro53. The main advantage with t05H is that I get 'slightly' better spin and 'dip' on my topspins since I have a quick snappy stroke, can't really make usee of the good dwell that the pro53 offers here . Soft brushy strokes are better with t05h, especially serves and pushes. Even blocking works better for me since t05H doesn't hold the ball too long. Now at the professional level, pros that like playing close to the table would def prefer playing with t05h or dignics since they don't hold the ball too long and hence won't be affected much by the incoming spin, however, pros that take a step or two back off the table might actually Benefit more from some of the hard esn rubbers (simon gauzy and hugo for example) since they offer good dwell to really load up on spin and power from behind. Unlike someone above mentioned, any amateur player without a really consistent and complete stroke set will not benefit by playing with any tenergy. They'l end up holding back and playing half and incomplete strokes due to tenergys low dwell and lack of forgiveness. However, ppl who have really good technique or ppl who receive coaching or guidance can probably benefit from tenergy as it lets you play a better quality ball with very less effort when your timing and technique is correct. For evryone else, some of the latest esn rubbers are definitely worth a look.
Edited by nv42 - 07/18/2019 at 1:26pm |
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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"... tenergys low dwell and lack of forgiveness ..." - lol, how the mighty have fallen.
I recall good times when tenergy's high dwell and ease of use was cited as the main reason to choose it over literally everything else.
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nv42
Super Member Joined: 01/22/2013 Location: india Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Regular t05 definitely has more dwell than t05H, but 'new gen' esn tensors of a comparable hardness to either tenergy are slightly dwellier.
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1.dhs pg2 fl
-FH t05h (max) -BH tibhar genius (max) |
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guni4you
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2019 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 269 |
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So boosting only softens the rubber? Or does it have other effects too?Should rubbers like rhyzer 50 or andro rasanter r53 be boosted with one or two layers of booster? Why dont people buy just a softer rubber instead of boosting 50+esn rubbers? What are the advantages of boosting those hard esn rubbers.Please let me know.
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7220 |
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Omega 7 Hyper for T05H and Omega 7 Asia for Regular T05
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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS
ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
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DonnOlsen
Gold Member Joined: 11/15/2008 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
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Especially because both the products that Butterfly introduced in response to this increased competition (T05H & D05) are very good & clearly better than T05.
As stated above, a good reply would be: Well, as it pertains to the second point (& clearly better than T05), it depends. The evidence published is that T05 holds a very prominent position today. Would the above statement have provided specific playing characteristics that distinguish among the three, then, given the desire to realize those playing characteristics, the "clearly better" declaration would be applicable. Thanks.
Edited by DonnOlsen - 11/21/2019 at 7:44am |
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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.
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Jackcerry
Super Member Joined: 07/06/2018 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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is it better the gewo nexus el pro 48 or the Joola rhyzer 48 as alternative of tenergy 05?
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guni4you
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2019 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 269 |
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Can someone please answer this about boosting wan hard rubbers?
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AMonteiro
Platinum Member Joined: 01/30/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2042 |
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I use booster on hard ESN rubbers since it was introduced Target Ultim 50 (2013 I guess). After I switched to Target Pro GT X51 and now I use Rhyzer Pro 50.
The overall performance improves, spin and speed compared to out of the package and it's not only because it gets softer. Actually, it increases the tension and the sponge pores. Also, a Rhyzer Pro 50 boosted feels way faster and firmer compared to non boosted Rhyzer 48. ps: I use only one layer of TRF booster. More than this I feel the rubber gets overboosted and mushy.
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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guni4you
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2019 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 269 |
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Thanks a lot for your reply. Do you boost only once like a brand new rubber? Or do you boost even again after like a month or two?
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AMonteiro
Platinum Member Joined: 01/30/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2042 |
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Only when brand new but I change my rubbers every 2 months. Actually TRF don't last too long but I don't like to reboost because is easy to overboost.. I can deal with the decrease of performance.
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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guni4you
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2019 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 269 |
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Will falco also offer good performance on esn rubbers?
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AMonteiro
Platinum Member Joined: 01/30/2007 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2042 |
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I tried Falco, not Long version.. Feels good too. Actually TRF is less oily and dries faster. Both work well on ESN rubbers.
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Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR
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guni4you
Super Member Joined: 03/16/2019 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 269 |
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So you recommend boosting these rubbers brand new with one layer to get best performance. Some people play with these for about 2 weeks to a month and when the original booster wears off they boost.Is that sub optimal?
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