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Tensor and high tension the same?

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    Posted: 01/27/2007 at 8:46pm
does tensor just mean alot of tension is built into the rubber like high tension? Some rubbers ive noticed have tensor written on them while others are said to have alot of tension built in but tensor is not written on them. Is this just the different ways equipment brands advertise or is there actually a difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shij421 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2007 at 12:41am
butterfly high tensioned rubbers such as bryce and cermet are not the same as the tensor rubbers (xtend, the andros, etc.) Bryce and cermet are better off with speedglue, while tensor rubbers shouldn't be glued. Correct me if I'm wrong, but bryce and cermet are high tensioned in the topsheet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ???? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2007 at 5:20am
ya im guessing they are because butterfly says the sponge hardness for bryce is 35 degrees (maybe different brands have different degree ratings) which is extremely soft so the topsheet must be harder considering bryce is very fast
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sverige Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2007 at 8:43am
yes, high- tension is in the topsheet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sprite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2007 at 1:17pm
Actually the Bryce top sheet is soft, and the "high tension" is achieved by using a high modulus sponge.

It is the "tensor" sheets which use a stressed, i.e. "tensioned" top- sheet, which is why they wear out so quickly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shij421 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2007 at 1:21pm
"High Tension rubbers have tension built in to the sponge and top-sheet. This helps reduce the amount of energy lost at the point of impact. In essence, it turns the speed of your opponents shot into additional power for you. In short, High Tension rubbers are fast, VERY FAST. The first such rubber was Bryce, introduced in 1997. It is by far the most widely used rubber among Butterfly�s sponsored players including the 2003 World Champion, Werner Schlager(AUT)." - Butterflyonline.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2007 at 12:27pm
High tension such as BTY's works by increasing the strength of the molecular bonds between the individual rubber molecules in the topsheet.  Tensor works by applying a stretched normal topsheet to a soft sponge to create that bouncyness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2007 at 3:20pm
Wow, this topic went flameing at DTTW a while ago. I found this information, in french, translated by google, so read and enjoy =)

1. The STORAGE Of ENERGY
About what is it?
The required goal is �to dope� the coating so that it stores energy (�storage of energy�) during manufacture so that it becomes at the same time more elastic and to tend more, but so similar to a coating stuck with fast adhesive. The difference is that this effect �sticks fast� is definitively integrated into the coating.

Which are various existing technologies?
Technology with storage of energy appeared for the first time in 1999. Currently, you will find these coatings under names, following:
� TENSOR (BANCO, JOOLA, ANDRO�)
� D. TECS, SPI (TIBHAR)
� FORMULATED (DONIC)
� HIGH TENSION (BUTTERFLY)

For all these technologies, the tension integrated into the coating can vary in intensity according to the required goal. One can apply the tension to foam, but also to rubber. These technologies evolve/move unceasingly worms of the increasingly strong integrated tensions and we arrived today, in particular with the 2nd generation of coatings TENSOR, with the limit of what rubber or foam can support.

Coatings with storage of energy and fast adhesive
Generally, these coatings were not designed to be stuck with fast adhesive. But certain players seek always more elasticity and the fast adhesive is very largely widespread today among the users of coatings with storage of energy. Its use then increases the effect of tension already present in the coating. But some of these coating already �doped� to the maximum and do not support any more the addition of the fast adhesive, one can then see appearing cracks in the coating or of the barbs which fall apart of foam.

We thus advise you scrupulously to respect our indications and those of the manufacturers as for the possibility of using these coating with fast adhesive.


2. COATINGS �ADDITIVES� A AIR!
How does that function?
One can for a long time reproduce the effect �sticks fast� in an artisanal way. Indeed while plunging any coating in an atmosphere under high pressure, the cells of foam �inflate� at the end of a few hours. One then obtains a coating similar to that stuck with fast adhesive: even its at the time of the play, even characteristic of elasticity! The disadvantage is that this coating finds at the end of a few hours its starting characteristics, as the pressure decreases inside the coating.

POWER SPONGE (BUTTERFLY)
SPEED TUNED (DONIC)
TUNED (TIBHAR)
Recently, a manufacturer developed a new technology being based on this principle and which �dopes� the traditional coatings. The innovation, it is that from now on the pressure does not decrease any more at the end of a few hours but only at the end of a few weeks. Some marks propose today their coatings treated with this process; they are thus perfectly in conformity with the new payment of the ITTF, since they do not use any adhesive!

Constraints
So that the pressure inside foam remains maximum, the coating must be preserved in its special packing under pressure. Once left, this pressure decreases in a slow and progressive way to disappear completely at the end of a few weeks. You find your traditional coating then. To prolong this pressure, it is highly recommended to preserve your racket under pressure, in a packing especially conceived for that. You must then �inflate� this packing with air to maintain inside there a pressure higher than the normal.

Compatible with the fast adhesive?
These coatings, already �doped� with the air, can moreover be stuck with fast adhesive. That increases still considerably their elasticity and their effect of catapult-launching.




Now, that was Tensor as a replacement to speedglue, if I understood it correctly. The Tensor itself is described as follows:

ABOUT WHAT IS it?
Process TENSOR developed by ESN, a company of high technology, consists in introducing between the chains of rubber molecules, a substance which acts as a spring.

This one draws aside the rubber molecules and thus maintains a tension continual very similar to what occurs with the molecules from the vapors from solvent from a fast adhesive.

While measuring the elasticity of rubber and foam, one arrives at values much higher. Thanks to this process, foam becomes more tender from 5 to 8 degrees, and more rubber band. For the first time, a coating becomes at the same time faster with more control!

Incredible but� true!


ITS CHARACTERISTICS
1 - The sound:
The coatings with storage of energy produce the same sound during the striking of ball as the coatings stuck with fast adhesive! Whereas the adhesive could only �dope� foam, technology TENSOR is also applicable to rubber and produces the same effects: more elasticity for more control.

One will thus find coatings which one will have applied technology TENSOR only to foam, and others where it will be applied to foam and rubber.

In the first case, the coatings will tend to want �to roll itself� (exactly as when you use fast adhesive!), and in the second case, the coating will be presented flat because the 2 parts are doped.

2 - Which difference with a normal coating stuck with fast adhesive?
The coatings with storage of energy produce the same sound that a stuck normal coating, and have a similar dynamics. But it would be false to say that they have the same characteristics exactly. The coatings with storage of energy have their own characteristics.

To tend more and more control
The coatings are more tender than the normal coatings, but their foam has 10% more elasticity. From where a considerable improvement of the control of ball. But it is possible that the �gluer� does not find completely the same speed there.

Power on �request�
What differentiates more the one coating with storage of energy from a traditional coating, is its capacity to restore �with the request� its energy. When you block passively, the coating absorbs more energy of the ball and you can slow down and control easily the play. On the other hand, when you block more actively, the coating releases all its energy and allows a good acceleration.

This is one of the great advantages of coatings TENSOR.



Sorry for the awful long posting, but I hopes this information brings knowledge to this forum!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tthj2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2007 at 8:15pm
I use Yasaka New Era rubber that is supposed to be a tensor rubber. The sponge is hard but the top sheet seem flexible and the net result is that sheet is not fast at all which is consistent with the speed rating given to the rubber. Does anyone know of any other tensor rubber with similar characteristics.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfwfitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 12:33am
I also used the new Era speed and found it played much better glued than unglued.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 5:30am
No they are not the same, if Bryce was playable without speedglue it'd say so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tthj2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 12:02pm
I find New Era to have good control blocking and driving thorough loops but I do have to work to put some speed behind it. I will try to counter loop with it and see how it works. With New Era I am finding I have to take big swings or the ball won't go too far but I can use less power because the placement is better.
 
Do you find tension rubbers such as Bryce to be much better than let's say a sriver. I assumed you can use smaller swings and get good speed and spin. How do you find Bryce controlwise and do you find big difference with speed glue and regular glue?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 7:46pm
Bryce must be used with speedglue or it isn't worth the money, and no with Bryce anything less than a confident swing at the ball will result in a low quality shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adambty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 8:08pm
thats not true, Bryce is fine without speed glue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 8:11pm
You can get better performance in all aspects in cheaper rubbers if you don't speedglue, such as Hammond X, Green Power and F1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adambty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 9:54pm
you probably dont know how to handle bryce. Shots has to be very delicate on bryce ( unglued ) to get its performance... and for that, not many people are able of. Thats why most people dont like to use bryce unglued.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tthj2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2007 at 10:36pm
Could it be that if a handful of rubber sheets are examined the matter of gluing is a more important factor and not whether it is tensor or not.
If that's the case it may be better off with cheaper sheets and speed glue until the speed glue ban kicks in. However, this will become moot in 2008.
 
Soon the default situation will be with no speed glue and it could change many equations in terms of rubber and blade selection and perhaps technique. I think it will be interesting.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2007 at 6:03am
...What? You do realise that Bryce like Hurricane 3 is meant to be dripping with speedglue? Thats the entire point of rubbers that are made for professional use. At least with H3 it can be reasonable if you stick to the table, but Bryce will simply be an overpriced slab thats outperformed in all aspects without the benefit of speedglue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adambty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2007 at 10:09am
Unglued, Hurricane 3 cannot be compared to bryce, Bryce is definately more powerful than Hurricane 3 in both speed and spin. The only bad thing about Bryce is its price... the price cause alot of people hated it. BUT dont forget, it might be expensive, it also last longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D4VOW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2007 at 10:33am
Originally posted by adambty adambty wrote:

thats not true, Bryce is fine without speed glue.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2007 at 10:57am
So, Adam. Are you saying that your serves and pushes are spinnier with Bryce than with Hurricane 3?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jolan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2007 at 12:42pm
Dear TT freak. I admire your boldness. I suppose you know you are leading to a dead end flaming war. It is still time to retire with dignified disdain and let this place as peaceful as it is...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *JC* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2007 at 4:41pm
oh sh*t, i think someone devided by zero and created a time paradox.....
parrelle universe, etc....

im something quite simlair to this happened at dttw

PS: i dont mean to brag, but i picked adambty being ken at least 3 months ago....
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that reminds me... im gonna go chew some gum right nowEvil%20Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adambty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2007 at 12:51am
ttfreak, yes you can get spinner shots from bryce compared to hurricane if you strike the ball at the right angle and velocity.
 
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for those who has yet to get involved in this discussion, as you can see now who is trying to stir up problems in this harmless discussion... I am just posting my views. Just look at how JC, jcdi and the rest of the DTTW forumers jumping in to make fun of someone who has different opionion than them. Luckily they are not moderators here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D4VOW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2007 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by adambty adambty wrote:

ttfreak, yes you can get spinner shots from bryce compared to hurricane if you strike the ball at the right angle and velocity.
 
-------
 
for those who has yet to get involved in this discussion, as you can see now who is trying to stir up problems in this harmless discussion... I am just posting my views. Just look at how JC, jcdi and the rest of the DTTW forumers jumping in to make fun of someone who has different opionion than them. Luckily they are not moderators here.


Having your opinion is fine. The problem is that you don't allow anybody else to have their opinion, constantly going on about how great Bryce is and putting down anybody that says otherwise. Bryce may be good for you but it isn't good for everybody. Stop destroying threads with your constant barrage of trash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ???? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2007 at 4:13pm
i would imagine bryce is better at spin for fast shots and the hurricane 3 better spin at slow shots like serves, pushes. Although maybe bryce could be just as good or better on serves on an extremely fast swinging motion. Im not sure, this is just a guess. But i also hear that the chinese are taught particular motions to get maximum spin out of these tacky rubbers on fast shots too. What kind of motion is this for a forehand loop for example, just of curiosity, i dont play with chinse rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *JC* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2007 at 4:41pm
ken/adam/wtf

your not so much lucky that we are not moderators here........

you are lucky here that the moderators dont make much impact here, and dont have such itchy trigger fingers as the dttw mods have ( and imho a itchy trigger finger is a good thing to have )


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adambty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2007 at 7:05pm
D4VOW, since when I do not allow others to have their own opinion. If others give their opinion I am fine. I am just give my opinion just like everyone else...
 
Opinion 1: Hurricane is spinner than Bryce
Opinion 2: Bryce is spinner than Hurricane
 
Why is it Opinion 1 is fine and Opinion 2 is a trash ? If you think Opinion 2 is trash, share your opinion why it is a trash, instead of personal attacks.
 
JC, what is wtf means ?
 
I hope with these few posting from JC the DTTW moderators and some of his friends, I hope will see clearly who is the real troublemaker.
 
Now back to the topic, Let me explain in more details...
 
Even though Bryce topsheet is less grippy compared Hurricane... it is very hard to spin Hurricane at high speed... it will tend to pull ball higher and further because ball tends to stick harder to the rubber, chances it will miss the table if swing too fast.
 
It is different for Bryce, although Bryce also have a grippy surface, when you hit at high speed... ball do not get stuck as hard as Hurricane, the ball will sink-in slightly because of its softer sponge, it will leave the blade quickly with the springy effect of its sponge, it will be just nice to impart a high spin ball ( due to your high speed swing ) which will land on the table much easier.
 
Most people are afraid to swing too fast on a ball, if you have bryce do have a try at different angle towards Bryce and see the result.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YATTP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2007 at 7:32pm
If you like unglued Bryce it's OK. I'm sure that you are not alone with this opinion, but you have to accept the fact that most players who play on a competitive level use speed glue for a very good reason. The characteristics of speed glued Bryce and unglued Bryce are *so* different that there is no point in comparing them.
In TT you can be good with anything as long as it's good for your game.
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