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Tensors Cant be Beat for Power or Spin

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Poll Question: Tensors Cant be Beat for Power or Spin
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
2 [8.33%]
22 [91.67%]
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bozbrisvegas View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02/09/2010 at 6:17pm

I have read this statement somewhere and was wondering what most people think of it. 

I voted false.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

I have read this statement somewhere and was wondering what most people think of it. 

I personally think it's a joke, but hey I might be wrong.Embarrassed


That phraseology ("it's a joke") is at best "played out" & to then pair it with a black & white poll?
What good comes of it?
Was this add copy you read?
For such an otherwise sharp fellow to employ such a dismissive ploy is puzzling.

We cannot know what most people think of it...
maybe some, maybe many, maybe a majority & certainly a % of those that reply here (assuming they reply "honestly").

What do you really want to say brother?
Does it start with  T_ _ _ R _ Y?

If you want to say you find Tenergy far superior to ~any~ Tensor you've tried, or are likely to ever try, then just go ahead & say it.

Tensors are not a joke, only a type of rubber.
Forgive them for promoting themselves!

...besides, Boz needs no mans agreeance.

Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 6:54pm
Nice analysis Heim.
 
I didn't say tensors are a joke.  I said I think the statement that no other product can beat them for power or spin is a joke.
 
I didn't say Tenergy because I think there are many other brands including chinese rubbers such as Haifu and DHS which also beat tensors for both power and spin.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spitfire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:00pm
Tensor in the hand of someone who knows how to use it, is hard to beat.
this is more accurate than your terribly generalized statement and i can't believe this post is comming from a advanced member. when i first clicked on this thread, i was prepared to battle SIDrism. Then i saw the poster...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:04pm
mmm
 
sorry if the post is too general.  What is SIDrism? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:07pm
It's understood.
I know you did not say tensors are a joke... I overstepped!

DO YOU get my  point?
I demand an apology for your dismissiveness!
However, you are correct when stating there are many viable choices.
Quantifying the performance of rubbers seems exceedingly difficult... even moreso when all the variables are added!

aside from being unable to make a "scientific" analysis
I mean really; this man likes this wine; that man, that wine!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:12pm
I believe it is very possible to create research data, but the amount of time, energy and other costs would prove what we already know anyway.
 
I am not talking about what this man likes and what that man likes, this is not about subjectivity.
 
It is not about what people like.
 
This is about a statement made not originally by me obviously.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

mmm
 
sorry if the post is too general.  What is SIDrism? 


may I?

SIDrism is a condition that seems to be born  from an inflated sense one's own "knowledge" & perceived  accoutrements.
It is near delusion in its definition and most certainly requiring professional attention.
Left unchecked it is lamentable.
Left to run its course? Intolerable.

Those inflicted or suffering from SIDrism post in a manner where they like to appear as open & wanting to exchange ideas & knowledge however are completely & utterly inable to do so; especially with any divergent position.

Oftentimes due to this inflated sense of "self" a person suffering from SIDrism will also make many claims to having seen or being able to see where others do not. When called into account on possible "facts" or lack thereof (a consensus having been accumulated across the whole Table Tennis community by minds far greater than "he") will then resort to claiming to being misunderstood & of being victimized.

note: where's Anton, he can do a better job of this than myself
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spitfire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

mmm
 
sorry if the post is too general.  What is SIDrism? 
It's a syndrom when posters starts to open topics that are slightly provocative in the name of "discussion" For example: "so and so equipment really sux" or "so and so technique is superior". All it take is a spark to derail this kind of thread. A Long gone(?) poster likes to open thread like that.
i have no problem w/ you boz, but this kind of thread sends chill down my spine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:28pm
so would you like me to remove the joke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spitfire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

so would you like me to remove the joke?
It's your thread, I am in no position to ask you to remove it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

I believe it is very possible to create research data, but the amount of time, energy and other costs would prove what we already know anyway.
 
I am not talking about what this man likes and what that man likes, this is not about subjectivity.
 
It is not about what people like.
 
This is about a statement made not originally by me obviously.
 


what is the source of the statement... wait, is it that spimantra guy you have this running feud with?
That's it.

until the data is collected we do NOT know
I am not as convinced as you that it can be done...
i could be wrong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

mmm
 
sorry if the post is too general.  What is SIDrism? 


may I?

SIDrism is a condition that seems to be born  from an inflated sense one's own "knowledge" & perceived  accoutrements.
It is near delusion in its definition and most certainly requiring professional attention.
Left unchecked it is lamentable.
Left to run its course? Intolerable.

Those inflicted or suffering from SIDrism post in a manner where they like to appear as open & wanting to exchange ideas & knowledge however are completely & utterly inable to do so; especially with any divergent position.

Oftentimes due to this inflated sense of "self" a person suffering from SIDrism will also make many claims to having seen or being able to see where others do not. When called into account on possible "facts" or lack thereof (a consensus having been accumulated across the whole Table Tennis community by minds far greater than "he") will then resort to claiming to being misunderstood & of being victimized.

note: where's Anton, he can do a better job of this than myself
 


I think you nailed it, Heim. Thumbs%20Up

I, too, was concerned when boz posted this. I have much respect for you boz, in many ways; however, IMHO this is kind of a pointless post that will most likely degrade into speculation, hearsay, conflation of opinions with "fact", and inevitably, flaming. I mean no disrespect, so please don't take my opinion personally.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/09/2010 at 10:49pm
It is not Spinmantra, and I was only the last of the people to be attacked by his website bashing.
 
Back on topic.  The person that claims this statement knows who they are and that is enough. 
 
There is no need for flaming.  What is boring is this kind of cultural relativism.  Nobody is allowed to say anything that disagrees with other opinions. 
 
I don't care, I believe in the truth, and I believing in the truth and if all you care about is stepping on people's toes your opinion (lack of) is worth nothing.  Your posts are worth nothing.
 
I have from the first post I ever made on table tennis always said the truth.  I have tried every rubber I have commented on and given only the truth.  
 
I posted about 2000 posts on this forum alone before I realised hey wait I love tenergy so much why don't I start my own website.
 
People will knock you whatever you do, but if you stick to the truth in the long run it will come out that what you were doing was honest. 
 
It's alright for other people to post their ideas about which rubbers they love and dont and why and disagree but it is starting to sound like that I am not allowed to anymore.  Or am being asked not to comment about what I see as false in the table tennis equipment circles. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 12:21am
You lost me Boz...

You're certainly allowed any viewpoint you hold. I think it just happens, here, you've been caught up in the latest wake of the rogue wave sid.
You are passionate, respectful, articulate &  mostly sober! Wink

"Truth" is a tricky word.

Maybe start again?
Maybe not.
Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 12:31am
truth is relative - and you can only say the truth from your point of view.  Other say the truth with very obvious other reasons such as money.
 
I now have a website which may actually be a bad idea because people now think if I say tenergy 05 is the best rubber they think I say it because I have a vested interest. 
 
It is the opposite with me, I said it is the best rubber and trully believed and then decided to create a website about it.
 
I'm not refering to you Heim,  I was told recently that my belief that tenergy 05 is the best rubber is tiring. 
 
But what option am I left with?  Should I lie, I do believe it is the best rubber and if I see something that is related in support or knocking it then I feel I have every right to comment on it.  If it bores people to read about equipment reviews, it is simple.  Don't read equipment reviews.
 
For as long as my body will allow me to predominantly loop away from the table, I will continue to search for the best looping rubber on the market.  I am not supported by butterfly and I am in debt for starting my website.  I will change the name of it if I find a better looping rubber.
 
EJ
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Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

 ... Back on topic.  The person that claims this statement knows who they are and that is enough. 
 
There is no need for flaming.  What is boring is this kind of cultural relativism.  Nobody is allowed to say anything that disagrees with other opinions. 
 
I don't care, I believe in the truth, and I believing in the truth and if all you care about is stepping on people's toes your opinion (lack of) is worth nothing.  Your posts are worth nothing.
 
I have from the first post I ever made on table tennis always said the truth.  I have tried every rubber I have commented on and given only the truth.  
 
I posted about 2000 posts on this forum alone before I realised hey wait I love tenergy so much why don't I start my own website.
 
People will knock you whatever you do, but if you stick to the truth in the long run it will come out that what you were doing was honest. 
 
It's alright for other people to post their ideas about which rubbers they love and dont and why and disagree but it is starting to sound like that I am not allowed to anymore.  Or am being asked not to comment about what I see as false in the table tennis equipment circles. 


I want to address this because I sense that you have a feeling of indignation that is unwarranted. (Not "unwarranted" in the sense that you're wrong in some way, but simply that you might have misinterpreted something I've said--or, I've communicated poorly. In either case, I want to explain myself better. Smile)

First, you're welcome to say anything that disagrees with anyone. That's what this forum is about--the exchange of ideas. I have confidence that you are an honest person with good motives. However, my reasons for disliking this particular post are as follows:

1) The post claims: Tensors Cant be Beat for Power or Spin. There was a recent thread in which someone asked for a definition of what "power" means in table tennis. It was, IMHO, a disaster. Everyone was talking past each other and no satisfactory definition of power was ever achieved by consensus. Definitions ranged from totally ambiguous personal opinions, to attempts at actual quantification, upon which most people wouldn't agree. Therefore, using the vague and ghostly term "power" in the claim of this post just opens up that same unresolved argument again. That is, it starts a discussion based on unclear premises, and begs the original question, "What is power?". What can come of that, except more confusion? Confusion leads to frustration, and frustration leads to flaming (frequently, but not always).

2) The term "spin" is used in a very imprecise manner. Spin in what context? Serving? Looping? Pushing? High speed? Low speed? Which stroke, European or Chinese? To me, these are all relevant issues regarding rubber and spin (and power for that matter) and, until specified, they will ultimately lead to confusion. That is, the discussion is again based on unclear premises. The only thing likely to come from that is confusion, which leads to frustration, which leads to flaming (frequently, but not always).  

3) Black and white claims are usually meaningless. That is, claims like "Rubber X is 'the best'", or, "Player Y is 'the best'" are pointless. Due to its complexity and variance, there are so many contingencies in this game that such absolute claims are completely pointless in most (if not all) regards. Basically, this post claims the same thing, i.e., "Tensors are the best."

In short, I don't have a problem with this post because it agrees or disagrees with anything I believe. I have a problem with it because its premises are unclear.

Regarding truth... well, that's a tricky one. This could spiral out into a crazy discussion, so I'll try to keep it simple: Truth cannot be relative; otherwise, it's not truth. Truth, by many philosophical definitions, is universal, necessary, and certain (to paraphrase Kant). So, what's preferential to you is not what's true... it's just what's preferential. Tenergy is what you prefer above all other rubbers, and perhaps what many people prefer above all rubbers. BUT, it doesn't mean it's "true" that Tenergy is the "best" rubber (whatever that means). It simply means that Tenergy is popular.

I don't think anyone is knocking YOU here, boz, but simply addressing the poorer-than-usual quality of your post (which implies that your posts are usually quite enjoyable!). Almost always, I enjoy your input even if I don't agree with it. So this isn't personal. Big%20smile

However...! Wink However, I will say that sometimes I wonder if you've backed yourself into a corner. I like the fact that you've found a rubber (Tenergy) that serves your needs so well, and I applaud your enthusiasm. But, such enthusiasm has apparently led you to be a kind of "poster boy" for Tenergy. In doing so, and in a social-psychological sense, your persona or "ego" can become tied up in Tenergy as well. That is, an attack on Tenergy becomes an attack on you... which I think is unfortunate and unnecessary. So, I guess I'm saying be careful. I'm glad you enjoy Tenergy so much, but this sport is a sport of fads, equipment-wise, so it might not be the best idea to have a giant psychological vested interest in one particular product. But that's just my utter speculation, and if I'm wrong or if I've offended you in my "wrongness" then I sincerely apologize.

If I may be so presumptuous as to make a suggestion: Just remember (as I must frequently remind myself), an "attack" on an idea you present is not an attack on you as a person.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 2:20am
Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:



1) The post claims: Tensors Cant be Beat for Power or Spin. There was a recent thread in which someone asked for a definition of what "power" means in table tennis. It was, IMHO, a disaster. Everyone was talking past each other and no satisfactory definition of power was ever achieved by consensus. Definitions ranged from totally ambiguous personal opinions, to attempts at actual quantification, upon which most people wouldn't agree. Therefore, using the vague and ghostly term "power" in the claim of this post just opens up that same unresolved argument again. That is, it starts a discussion based on unclear premises, and begs the original question, "What is power?". What can come of that, except more confusion? Confusion leads to frustration, and frustration leads to flaming (frequently, but not always).


If I may be so presumptuous as to make a suggestion: Just remember (as I must frequently remind myself), an "attack" on an idea you present is not an attack on you as a person.



Anton, are you attacking me as a person? Cry






J/K Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 2:26am
point
 
1 - didnt see that post nor interested nor will I post in away to avoid that
2 - this is merely a statement made by someone else and I agree with you
3- meaningless agreed - yet this statement needs to be exposed
 
Truth I am sorry - call it what you will - relabel for yourself under other terms.
 
There is no universal truth - unless you believe in God.  Truth is personal however the more people agree on "a truth" then we have something we can build on and move beyond semantic arguements that should remain in the university of psychology.
 
If you agree and most people agree that this thing is a cat well lets move on and call it a cat.  No need to break it down more than that, unless you want to impress an audience or argue for the sake of arguing.
 
I dont think I was refering to you Anton.  And I am not Tenergy, if people don't like it I couldnt care less.  But if people come in and say things like the topic of this thread - then there should be a place to counter that arguement for the sake of the people looking for truth.  I would be angry if I went and bought something from this person and then found the general table tennkis community said no Tensors aren't the most powerful or spinny rubbers.   I will feel like I was sold a lie, regardless of my playing level.
 
Poster boy for tenergy? 
 
doubt it, there are atleast 1000000 better players than me using the product.  And then are probably are another 100000000000000000000 players that are the poster boys of for $1 rubbers that could beat me.
 
Anyway nice piece of writing Anton
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 6:16am
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

I have read this statement somewhere and was wondering what most people think of it. 

I voted false.

You know where you read that statement, dont be afraid to announce it http://www.affordablett.com.au/smf/index.php?action=forum, cause I'm not. Now I voted True, cause thats my statement. And I truly believe it.

What I have to say to you Boz, is stop being a Varghese. You knew it was me (my Avatar statement), so why not just go ahead and state it, what were you trying to start some form of flame, I've had many before & I'm sure that after your gone I'll have many more, those that started the previous flames have gone, whether thats a permanant thing, or just temporary - I dont care.

Now lets get some facts right, You love Tenergy 05, and claim it to be the best thing since sliced bread - Nothing wrong with this. But please dont shove it down our throats.

I love Tensors, dont care which brand - it can be ones I dont sell, but prefer Roxon 450. I dont go around preaching its the best, Infact when most people come to see me and get advice, I will look at their standard, the way they hit etc, and then judge as to the best combo, in most case I will let them hit with one of the 30 bats I have made up, and let them choose.

Now Boz, you claim that Tensors are:
1. bouncy in the short game
2. lack spin
3. deteriorate very quickly
4. Others I dont remember or care to remember,

You claim that the 50 year old that was using impuls speed, was hitting one ball into the net, and the other long. Yet Tenergy 05 fixed this problem, surely could not have been his technique.

I've seen a top rated junior that was coaxed into Tenergy 05 by their coach, yet after a while of hitting balls long, went back to Impuls speed.

I have seen 70 year olds claim that Tenergy 05 is the best, yet all they did was get their oppenant to sit the ball up with their frictionless long pips, and flat smash it with there super expensive, super spinning, super fast Tenergy 05 (and I mean flat smash).

Now dont get me wrong, Just like you prefer Tenergy 05, I prefer Tenergy 64, and thats not because I was born in 64 either, thats because Tenergy 64 is the one thats most similar to Tensors.

Now have I tried Tenergy 05 - Sh*t yeah, many times and for extended periods, trying to see what the hype is about. Have I tried Hexer, Sh*t yeah, have it on a blade right now. Which one do I prefer - Roxon 450. Do I shove it down peoples throuts - Sh*t No.

Now let look at the 3 points above one at a time:
1. bouncy in the short game
2. lack spin
3. deteriorate very quickly
4. Others I dont remember or care to remember,

Point 1. Well after using ESN Tensors for the last 11 years, I dont find Tensors bouncy in the short game, but I suppose when I first started using them I probably did. I stuck with them and now I'm reaping the benifits.

Point 2. I'm sick of hearing oppenants claim that they cant believe how much spin I get on some balls, yet others push some serves into the net. Cant be to Bad - some of these comments come from Tenergy users.

Point 3. Tensors can last quite a while, if used with a sticky protection sheet and are cleaned often. otherwise you drive dirt & grime into the topsheet.  I'm surprised that this dirt and grime does not get into the Tenergy topsheet (Must be Magic).

So please in the future if you want to have a go at me, just start a thread asking whats wrong with pingpongrob. BTW we have a virtual boxing ring over at the other forum, you are welcome to join in. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 7:56am

Didn't feel anyone needed to know who said it.  Just wanted to know if most people had the same view. 

Flame war no thanks, but calling me a Varghese now that is trully funny.  I think we should add that to forum terminology.  "Stop being a Varghese" love it, that is the quote of the day for me.  But now you have spoilt the conspiracy theory, you and I and I won't bother mentioning names for the same reason I didn't mention yours, are not as connected as we were imagined.
 
Back to flame war, nah, actually I still want to join your forum.  I went there today.  Had a look around and I just kept looking around.  I do like your forum and all the people their seem really nice and friendly.  Many of those guys are here too.  While I was there I was just wondering how many people had the same belief as you.
 
I don't want to have go at you I just want people to share their ideas in a respectful manner.  Hope we are still friends.  Hug
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 7:59am
With the proper stroke, Hurricane rubbers can get more spin and power than tensors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 8:07am
Well said, and that was the perspective I came to create this post.
 
I didn't mention Tenergy, others shoved it down my throat.  DHS rubbers don't suit my stroke but take a look at Ma Long and you will see that his forehand is the most powerful stroke since bread and butter. As for spin on serves I have even heard our beloved Timo Boll say Ma Long's serves win him so many points.  
 
anyway I am getting side tracked into players ability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 8:25am
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

While I was there I was just wondering how many people had the same belief as you.
 
I don't want to have go at you I just want people to share their ideas in a respectful manner.  Hope we are still friends.  Hug
 

I know 2 have tried to change, but keep coming back to Roxon 450.

Are we still friends - Sh*t yeah, Of Course. Nothing like a good old winge amonst table tennis fanatics. You being the Tenergy 05 Fanatic, and me being the Roxon 450 Fanatic. We have one thing in common, both rubbers have a 5 in them LOL

Lets face it we cant all be the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 8:39am
Good, I was worried I would have to say:
 
"stop being a Varghese"
 
And even though there are a hundred things to say back to you about your post, I won't, because I believe we have more than 1 thing in common.
 
You really need to think harder before you say really stupid things like this:
 
we have the number 5 in common.
 
We also have the number 0 in common, you believe 450 is the best thing since sliced bread and I believe 05 is.
 
your in the same timezone as me I think well close anyways, so I have had enough of this, I am going to bed and will count our favorite numbers till I fall asleep.
 
Good night and don't forget:
 
sh*t yeah!!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2010 at 9:28am
Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

Well said, and that was the perspective I came to create this post.
 
I didn't mention Tenergy, others shoved it down my throat.  DHS rubbers don't suit my stroke but take a look at Ma Long and you will see that his forehand is the most powerful stroke since bread and butter. As for spin on serves I have even heard our beloved Timo Boll say Ma Long's serves win him so many points.  
 
anyway I am getting side tracked into players ability.

I don't associate Tenergy with tensors, but as for the other members, I guess they've associated you with Tenergy.  It's just a mis-fire in their minds. Wink
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