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"Palatinus - Esperanto" ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Palatinus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2010 at 4:58pm



Edited by Palatinus - 10/29/2010 at 5:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2010 at 5:11pm



Edited by tompy - 10/29/2010 at 4:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2010 at 5:28pm
I suggest for now to look into options (five or seven ply) for a fast, but not crazy fast, mostly dynamic blade  (aiming to compensate the loss of dynamics with the speedglue ban ?). With enough stability and if possible some touch.
A powerfull loopingblade with still some allround character and stability more then a powerlooping blade is what I have in mind then.
In the higher off range would be a good and save enough range to aim at I think.
Aiming for a weight range around 90 it could end up being 85 or 95.
The "range", weight and balance can also be influenced later on with griphalves and bladeshape.
This way we might have a chance something near to playable comes out for the lamina build and can ask Palatinus to comment on the "possible impossibilities" for the lamina (considering weight and balance related to the sizes mostly) and then adapt in a next round after that.  I expect that to be necessary.


Edited by tompy - 10/29/2010 at 4:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 5:28am
From here it could go without coordination for a while I think (if this direktion is followed further).
Then to come to the next phase maybe some coordination is necessary again. But ...I won,t be the assigned coordinator then.
This type of process takes me too long and the role doesn,t fit me. Or if I proceed mostly on myself I see it coming that no-one else stays involved and I cause irritation. It would be far from what it is supposed to become then also.

Marc



Edited by tompy - 10/29/2010 at 5:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thomasson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 5:46am
Just make a little bit stiffer acoustic with l-size handle and u got ur epic blade :D
Atleast, it would be my favorite :p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 6:13am
Originally posted by Thomasson Thomasson wrote:

Just make a little bit stiffer acoustic with l-size handle and u got ur epic blade :D
Atleast, it would be my favorite :p
 
have you tried Tenor or Violin? They are both a bit stiffer than Acoustic and they have similar feel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thomasson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 6:15am
But both slower! Anyway, Violin is coming this way now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 6:17am
Originally posted by Thomasson Thomasson wrote:

But both slower! Anyway, Violin is coming this way now!
 
violin is slower yes but tenor is faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote typhoon1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 8:15am
Originally posted by tompy tompy wrote:

I suggest for now to look into options (five or seven ply) for a fast, but not crazy fast, mostly dynamic blade  (aiming to compensate the loss of dynamics with the speedglue ban ?). With enough stability and if possible some touch.
A powerfull loopingblade with still some allround character and stability more then a powerlooping blade is what I have in mind then.
In the higher off range would be a good and save enough range to aim at I think.
Aiming for a weight range around 90 it could end up being 85 or 95.
The "range", weight and balance can also be influenced later on with griphalves and bladeshape.
This way we might have a chance something near to playable comes out for the lamina build and can ask Palatinus to comment on the "possible impossibilities" for the lamina (considering weight and balance related to the sizes mostly) and then adapt in a next round after that.  I expect that to be necessary.


I like his idea about this blade.

Can i add some more ideas?
if you want to build a powerful looping blade, here are two characteristics which you have to choose.
1. high dwell time like sanwei J-9
2. biting ball feeling like carbo7.6
In case, you can combine these characteristics; it would be the best blade.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fzolesz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 9:11am
My opinion to Esperanza ;)

Head :158*150 Virtuoso or TBS because these are popular
Speed : off-/off
Thickness : 5.7-6.0mm
Veneers : Limba H Outer 0.6
Padouk 0,55 H 
Samba Core 3 mm flexible one
Glue: hot Hide glue which lets the blade speak between 1-2 layer (soft density?) . harder between the core and padouk (much density?)
Handle: Flared or Straight
Overall weight 88-90 gramm
Head balanced
5 plies

This setup is similar to Stiga Offensive wood just changing the outer from walnut to limba, and the gluing process could make lighter feeling but with harder outer.
The second padouk can be work similar like a composite but without the uncomfortable metallic feeling (for me).

What is your opinion about it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2010 at 5:13pm
With hard to hard layers (padouk / Limba) I think it will be much different. Padouk is really hard and heavy. Personally I would miss the spruce touch.
It,s well proven as a layer underneath the outerlayer.  Padouk (I have made a few blades with Padouk) as a possible outerlayer or Walnut ? If I remember well some off the old stiga off- classics had a walnut outerlayer and spruce second ?

 Harder wood does not always make a blade (with the rubber on) faster (for looping mostly) except when the weight is increased another layer has to be softer or thinner then.
For a seven ply core I,m thinking for possibilities with the abachi selections. three ply abachi core, clipper type (m/s/m) with maybe second ply western red cedar  (?) or spruce (are there seven plies with a spruce second layer ?).

But I want to weight a bit longer to decide a personal favorite option to see if some more ideas come up....from bladebuilders as Liquid sky or Peter C who know some of these woods better....or from playing experience also.



Edited by tompy - 10/30/2010 at 11:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fzolesz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2010 at 12:22pm
OK , it woulde be offcourse different i just wondering about it, but as a secound padouk hareder feeling could make the missed stability? I don't know.
I don't really like spruce...

But I liked the Offensive replica but not the walnut outer,,,so the idea comes from experiences.
Your mentioned m/s/m core is also sounds interesting.... but samba is good enough Imo.

m/h/s/h/m with koto outer/limba/samba/limba/koto could be also good choice maybe? personally i don't really like koto...but MAster palatinus said once me he likes it.
5 plied Koto blade does'nt sound bad ...



Edited by fzolesz - 10/30/2010 at 5:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2010 at 1:15pm
Ayous is the same as samba/abachi just different naming.
Spruce is very strong for how light it is which is close to abachi. The lightness means you can use a thicker or harder outerply or a thicker/denser core. Walnut is stable and ayous/spruce/walnut is a great combination. There are so many possibilities (too many :-)).


Edited by tompy - 10/30/2010 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2010 at 7:00pm
Strolling through the portfolio on the Osp-custommade site for ideas (that are easy to communicate with Palatinus then) I found this six-ply blade in the album for allround blades.

http://www.oldstiga.com/e107_plugins/pviewgallery/pviewgallery.php?album=2

picture 16 ( hyperlink didn't work).
Some commercial blades have 6 plies also and custombuilders sometimes use it - mainly with balsa for long pips - to get different character on both sides.

With the type of glue and gluing process Mr Palatinus uses this layer becomes harder then the wood  (and more difference for ayous as it,s soft) as the glue always penetrates the wood a bit. It adds some strength and stability perpendicular to the grain.

This layer would add stability somewhat for a construktion (grain direktions) that stays more similar to 5 ply.
I also would expect it to take away some of the springiness/nervousness that five ply blades with spruce tend to have making them not that easy. 

Icontek suggested different fh and bh side for chinese rubber fh and japanese type rubber bh. A two ply ayous core can also be made a-symmetric using soft and harder samba/ayous for resp bh and fh side and I think it,s easier to balance against warping.

But, I lack experience with this to be sure if it will be balanced enough for that. But as long as the softer abachi on one side is a bit thicker then the medium abachi on the opposite side I expect it to be somewhat balanced for that.

As a seven ply the same idea is possible ; a 4 mm clipper type core but asymmetric.
A soft somewhat thicker samba ply to the bh side,  thin middle ply of soft samba (but hardened by the glueing) and thinner medium samba towards the fh side. That would make more difference. The fh side again less springy then (from the surface) and harder. If the blade is kept at say 6,0 - 6,2 mm for chinese rubber there is still some dwelltime (seven plies are not really stiffer they are more stable mostly, less torcque, more consistent lower throw). For Tenergy I think this harder fh side is also good and for a more mechanical spin rubber on bh the somewhat softer bh - side is a good thing also.

If Palatinus thinks something similar can be done also with the outerplies like soft but thicker koto on bh side and hard but thin koto on fh side ?.....why not ?

I would be dissapointed when something regular came out for a blade that was meant to be unicque.




Edited by tompy - 10/31/2010 at 7:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fzolesz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2010 at 12:18pm
It will not be regular with different FH/BH side but I don't think it is necessary, Ok I am just wondering about it.
But we can use different rubbers in hardness/width even all the rubbers are differnet form each other red/black!

It can be unique because it will be handmade and designed by us.Wink
I am curius now with this 6ply construction. but also with koto or Limba outer,
IMO Gluing need be light I think for not to dominate the blade.
For griphalves I suggest Beech/Abachi/Walnut veeners... It is stiffer grip but we could design highr arc for the neck area ...?! Smile How about it?


Edited by fzolesz - 11/02/2010 at 12:20pm
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FH: Tenergy 80
BH: Tenergy 80
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2010 at 3:03pm
If you mean regular as to ittf rules (instead of as unusual) that,s not a problem. This is allowed. Re-impact (or Ulmo) does similar things with balsa and using different outerplies. Hao shuai Friendship has an outcentered carbonlayer closer to the forehand and Kong Linghui used one carbonlayer for his fh. For using slower more powerfull rubber on fh (like chinese fh japanese bh or also Tenergy fh tensor bh) it has the advantage to make the speed difference be felt a little less.

Gluing (glue + process these are connected) always has to be "somewhat light" but compromising strenght it could loose more (compared to carbonblades) then that is gained in woodfeel.

With ebenholz blades for instance stiga added carbon particles (nano tubes) to the glue. That makes the gluelayer also stronger and (not light) more carbon-like and adds strength to the gluelayer. But the glue and process will be difficult to discuss here. For instance hideglue is not always hideglue, open-time can vary and you have to adapt things to such differences. I have no experience with Palatinus his glues and he - logical - does not want to discuss his process and glues here.
These things you do and develop on intuition working with the materials used. It,s possible to add strength to a degree where you don,t loose much sensitivity and then try to go further and loose more then is gained......For the character described Palatinus can choose the glue and decide the process as far as I,m concerned. And if it has some initial hardness (to the cost of somewhat playability when it is all new)  that would make it to a blade with character that has to be concurred with longer playtime.  I prefer that over blades that feel good at first instance and then later may feel too weak compared with carbon.

Griphalves

In the portfolio for offensive blades comparing picture 15 sn 491 and picture 16 sn 490 there are two different types of layering that can be seen in the portfolio often in different varieties. Obviously Palatinus (and stiga also) has experimented a lot with these two different types of layering. One time Palatinus speaks sn 491 dialect/language next time sn 490 language. If we want to combine as much languages as possible for esperanto we can combine these two languages for both sides...

Picture 15 type has better dampening (important factor even more for bh ) and picture 16 type has more strength, less dampening if the stripes on the side are somewhat harder wood. If we want a blade for more springy rubber on bh and more powerfull fh to distinguish further difference for fh and bh side we could use both these layerings (using same woods both sides for aesthetics) picture 15 type for bh and picture 16 type for fh side.

Their character would combine and work out for both sides, the blade as a whole, but a bit more for the particular side where they are used. This could compliment the difference in layer density for fh and bh.

Grip-placement

Lower gripplacement can cause problems with instabillity/inconsistent throw and a nervous character. Too high it can become a stiff - brick and difficult to handle.
I personally always prefer somewhat higher placement as I can adapt to my preference then same as how penholdplayers do (I allready used to do that when I was twelve and had much smaller hands). But these things are personal.

Palatinus could make it with somewhat wider flanks first (high placement) as Accoustic L-size seams to have or many chinese blades. With the lamina coming out underneath the griphalves early (as ej-master mentioned to be important for strength/stability in the high gears) and adapt it as last tuning more to the grip/handling feel only or mostly for the side where Michael maze does this with hís blade (where it falls between thumb and pointerfinger). There it won,t harm strength and stability as much as when it would be done for the other side (loopers tend to hit a bit out of center more close to the pointerfinger-side). Then Ej-master and Maze have also contributed to Esperanto. It also speaks there language then.
But with a-symmetric griphalves, if Palatinus is righthanded, it would become a righthanded blade (or version) and if he is lefthanded it comes out as lefthanded version.

Therefor - Mr Palatinus - I would like to ask you for some feedback (as we need it) on a few of the possibilities (or impossibillities) for tuning some of the basic builds mentioned. Considering weight, balance and headsize ......
Is six or seven ply with spruce and walnut outers possible for weight for instance (meaning how light heavy is the spruce compared to medium and/or light ayous......













Edited by tompy - 11/03/2010 at 12:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2010 at 10:57am
Well guys..
It is indisputable that there are many of you are thinking about blades and construction deeply. We had an idea for you all but mainly those who would like to join our mutual racket building seriously.

Let me quote ejmaster: >>let the blades speak<< but on what languange? As a respect for that artificial language 'Esperanto' that is established by using many languages to make a mutual language we would build a blade together that will called Esperanto.

We make only one piece of that kind and we will never sell it but we will send around for testing. It will be a symbol our common work.

This is quoted from Pll, Laszlo initially explaining the idea for Esperanto (or esperanza ?) in the Osp thread.
I think there is some confusion about the idea for this blade also from my initial post here.
The idea challenges those who where critical to some parts of the design of Osp blades and havingendless discussions.
Osp does it their way, speaks their language and if you speak other language I will translate it to a blade...that,s about what Palatinus suggested. But as all languages combined because of the name....including Osp language if possible as I understand esperanto. Same as Esperanto which was designed using and combining many different languages; spanish, English, french and other languages (chinese ?).

So it,s not meant to be result of customizing process.

What comes out for a real situation in a factory would be a prototype to test certain ideas/languages and how they can be worked out in a construktion.
Ideas and construktions that where put in as response to the osp blades.
From the perspective of playing but also designing and making blades.

So that,s what I focused on. Instead of different languages for the language esperanto. This Esperanto (but Esperanza I think is better to distinguish for the difference) would have to combine those ideas that where mentioned thorughout the Osp thread in discussions on bladedesign inclusing - if possible - ideas from Laszlo and Palatinus.

Some ideas like headflex and neck flex seem a contradiction but luckily there are two sides for a neckshape....Maze uses both designs even exaggerated......so that fits perfect to the idea for Esperanzo.

It,s a challenge to make it work then...for Michael Maze it seems to work  so why would he be unicque ?

For griphalves I have made many blades with different griphalves for both sides and it works fine. So consecquently as different griphalves more ideas can be combined this also logically fits to the basic idea for Esperanza and again can be seen as a challenge also for Palatinus.

Using Osp ideas on griphalves also (but for bh side as for griphalves) is consecquent for the basic idea because Osp also speaks a language and as much languages/ideas as possible would have to be presented in the blade.

Chinese tabeltennis speaks different language for fh and bh stroke. Fh more power, bh more quick.
Different ideas means more ideas so again a challenge to do this for the blade also.
Hence the idea of different ply density not an idea I invented but existent as idea thus language thus has tobe part of the blade also almost as a consecquence.

Anyway this was my approach and therefor I sometimes may have neglected inputs that where more going towards customizing existent blades then on translating different languages/ideas from the discussions. I consider this approach as consekwent to the basic idea for the blade no matter what comes out.....that,s the challenge then.

If Palatinus takes up this challenge he will understand that we can,t go in details as exact plythickness for the veneers, exact description for the bladeshape, glue-process aso. It,sall about details and every detail influences the other detail. Form start of making a - prototype - blade to the result it,s all about tuning detail to detail to detail to make it all work. Every detail that is set by me in an exact way takes away the tuning possibillities and freedom for the blademaker, the craftsman to work with the materials on intuition and understanding.
So I refuse todo that and it,s not necessary either.

Plainly from the ideas many blades are possible. Licquid sky would have no trouble making a blade based on  what we have now. I could and can do that and Palatinus just as well.

Then we would have three or four esperanza,s, all different, all different craftsmen different language but speaking.

If I or we make the design in detail the craftsman (paltinus) looses freedom of speach and we have another mass produktion blade.

Even determining the woodtypes maybe is a step to far (vanillawood and maybe spruce for the straight/long grain combined with samba as a nexy spear lay-up is fine with me also) We don,t know the woods and veneers to work with except Palatinus. Spruce is not spruce. Quality of the wood influences the porosity how it soaks up glue . I have no ecperience with this quality veneer so without experience I cannot know the optimal viscosity. Once that detail is different it influences other details. It,s far to complex to start with so I won,t.

If this is kept being asked it feels like the idea was meant to trap me and Ej-master into a projket that is deemed and possibly meant to fail. If not meant that way then it still is how I experience it.
Without any -manual - experience in bladebuilding (and using these type of glues) this may all be diffcicult to understand but for those with experience, as licquid sky,  legout-de (who know me from tt-news bladebuilding forum as Martho) or Palatinus, I know they understand the problem.



Edited by tompy - 11/06/2010 at 11:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2010 at 7:28am
Tompy

I don't sense that the Esperanto is meant as a trap set for you or any other forum member.

What I sense is that Robert and Laszlo are setting us the challenge of designing a blade, that we'd like to see and that requires us to come up with thoughts and ideas; on which they'll base and build this design.

The fact this will be a one off design that will not be sold, indicates they are looking on this blade as a chance to experiment and produce something different to their normal line of blades.

By being open to our ideas and suggestions, it is possible we could also help give them new ideas to further experiment with. Those ideas could possibly be used to refine their existing blades or branch out, with other styles of blades that they haven't produced to date.

I disagree with your point that the Esperanto is doomed to failure; as it is not in Robert's and Laszlo's  best interests from an economic standpoint, to produce a bad blade. Whilst the blade itself will not be sold, it makes no sense for them to run the risk of damaging their reputation for producing good blades, by producing a dud.

Regarding my ideas on the Esperanto, I must admit I haven't given it much thought to date; as I've been busy with other things, but I'll come back to you on that one.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/07/2010 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by tompy tompy wrote:

 
..., as licquid sky,  legout-de (who know me from tt-news bladebuilding forum as Martho) ...


So you are indeed Martho! Legout and I were guessing about that. It's nice to meet here again!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2010 at 8:35am
Originally posted by Peter C Peter C wrote:

Tompy

I don't sense that the Esperanto is meant as a trap set for you or any other forum member.

What I sense is that Robert and Laszlo are setting us the challenge of designing a blade, that we'd like to see and that requires us to come up with thoughts and ideas; on which they'll base and build this design.

The fact this will be a one off design that will not be sold, indicates they are looking on this blade as a chance to experiment and produce something different to their normal line of blades.

By being open to our ideas and suggestions, it is possible we could also help give them new ideas to further experiment with. Those ideas could possibly be used to refine their existing blades or branch out, with other styles of blades that they haven't produced to date.

I disagree with your point that the Esperanto is doomed to failure; as it is not in Robert's and Laszlo's  best interests from an economic standpoint, to produce a bad blade. Whilst the blade itself will not be sold, it makes no sense for them to run the risk of damaging their reputation for producing good blades, by producing a dud.

Regarding my ideas on the Esperanto, I must admit I haven't given it much thought to date; as I've been busy with other things, but I'll come back to you on that one.



+1

Moreover it is not sure that Esperanto will be a succes but we all can learn very much of it. And than we can go for Esperanto2 and 3 and so on. 

In the other hand tompy is right that it is not easy to take charge in making something since all who take part are responsible in Esperanto. And I am sure there are many readers who are afraid of writing due to this risk. BTW it depends on what we expect.
We expected published discussion, open teamwork.

I can see there must be many-many hours that tompy has devoted into that project so anyway many respect for him.
we make real professional handmade table tennis blades - ospblades.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/08/2010 at 8:44am
Just a suggestion , you should open a few polls to find out what the majority wants.  I think people are nervous to say what they want and with the poll here on mytt there names will be safe plus it will give us a direction to head.  We obviously need to know what class ( off-, off, off+ etc...), optimum weight, handle styles (love the conical) , balance,head shape and do people want more flex or speed? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2010 at 7:39am
Hello Licquid sky, good to meet you here, hope you stay involved.

Peter C,
I hope you are right and also think you are. It,s just the type of thought that I can put aside and same time keep in mind as a possibillity...I will try to keep the negative and positive balanced....
But as a language Esperanto was/is a known failure and it was because it was designed before it was spoken not while it was spoken as more natural languages evolve. I don,t want to make that mistake or be lead to it.

My ideal would be that we come with ideas (allready have some) well argumented from playing perspective, glueban, technical perspective, energytransfer, where materials are funktional and where not aso. Discuss possibillities to work them out and combine in the more general sense. As inspiring Palatinus for something to come up with based on this thread and also his own interests and challenges he sees.
Even picking the woods for me allready feels as stepping in his shoes to much without really knowing the materials he uses.
Even if I had worked with spruce and the quality is different, the selection is different, it all interacts with the glue and how it works out on the whole. Different quality wood automatically has different porosity influencing the gluelayer thickness the extend to which it penetrates the woods/soakes in. That influences weight and playing characteristics.
To give an impression how complex and subtle these things can be.

And as we can,t have or make a real connection with the materials or have the real experience how things influence each other determining the layering and gluingprocess from a chair at the office feels absurd I also learned at technical school - that was mostly theoretic - that that,s not the right way.
And as mentioned I expect Palatinus (and Licuid sky)  to understand exactly what I mean. It,s comparable maybe with buying a blade from internet.
All there is are pictures and some reviews, abstracts. You have a certain imagination about what it will be. Imagining you start to miss it (because what you see is not really there) the ej-bug gets activated by that and you buy to fill in the gap that imagination and fantasy has created. Classic marketing mechanism.
Here we risk doing the same but being the customer and the engineer and the marketeers all at once.
And as when you buy a blade what you get is always different then imagined. In this case this difference would be much bigger or we have the same luck as winning a lottery with one lot.  Luck in the weight, Luck in playabillity (a blade needs dampening also and balance) everything. It may still be playable but what,s the use in doing this then.

But same time I also get tempted as in front of the icecream stand except I can,t even see the ice-cream here.

Laszlo,

Most time I have invested earlier building blades and corresponding with other hobbyists and I can type faster then I play tabletennis these days. That,s not the problem.
But this experience also makes others more weighting and see what will happen. It gives me the somewhat natural lead but then nothing happens..understandable but that doesn,t feel good for the process not as for how this thread runs. And if Palatinus keeps his silence then also...

Palatinus,

From you,re side - to me -  it feels a bit as letting us feel that we need you. But you do you have to rub it in more ? We need you, you prooved that point allready. We feel like that child in front of all these coloured ice boxes not knowing how they will really taste and what to pick and in this case we can,t even see the colours for real.
In a restaurant confused with the choices on the menu I have sometimes asked the waitress (especially if young and beautifull offcourse)  what she likes best on the menu and then simply order that to realize an everlasting bond or at least until the end of the evening but also to have a bigger chance to get something tasty.
In this case even though you are not female and older then those waitresses I have the same urge...can,t you just pick a proven off lamina with the woods and your skills implied for a lamina that is allround for chinese rubber and more offensive for faster rubbers ? Then we can go further from there.
There hasn,t been discussion about the lamina,s either so why would we have to do this part if you have proven to be the perfect person for the job allready. I consider that as the normal part of effective teamwork also. If we keep a poll who should build, make and tune the lamina Palatinus or someone else I know the outcome. Then if you don,t respond it can be only one thing that is that you don,t want to be involved in "the team". But then I don,t want to work with you offcourse. In a real situation I would seek someone else for the job even if less experienced and skilled. No problem but I would want to know and not find out. That,s the negative side in me at the moment...

J-penmaster,
Polls for five or seven allready exist so that we can decide by these polls. Five ply it has to be then.

Same build as Korbel but spruce secondply instead of Limba to avoid it to be an exact copy (or is it a copy of nexy spear then? and nexy spear such a copy from Korbel...:-)). and voila we have a lamina then that wouldn,t be that much away from a poll result and suit chinese rubber fh a bit better maybe with the spruce while still be good with Japanese rubber also. An allround blade for chinese rubber and a bit more offensive for Japanese type. Standard type blade, classic.

Weight, headsize and balance won,t be too critical then and an esperanto 2, 3 or 4 if they would be made can always be tuned different as variations on this basic blade. We ask Palatinus to make that lamina, he informs us how it comes out, how heavy the griphalves have to be for a medium balance, how fast, stiff/ flexible the lamina came out compared with some known blades as Korbel and then we can go further also..
If we have a view of such builds (not too critical for building and understandable by the voters) or even one, We could do a poll and also go further. I don,t have a problem with that either. Palatinus can keep aside then a bit longer.  But if he has a problem with such a more general description and then tune it with his skills and knowledge to the general idea I also want to know rather then find out later. But no reaction I will understand as positive then..That,s the positive side in me.




Edited by tompy - 11/10/2010 at 7:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2010 at 8:25pm
For me the problem is I don't really know how to get involved into this project.

Off course i have my philosophy/language how i build my blades and which blade suits which style.

I have quite some experience in building classic blades (abachi/limba/limba) with hide/bone glues and in building composite blades.

To make suggestions we should somehow find a consensus of the goals we want to achieve with this project. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2010 at 4:54am
I,ve also build mostly classic lamina,s with Limba and/or Koto but very different then Palatinus his Limba by the different way it is made and treated. Glutin glues also. But I have used poplar (one ply  for cores mostly. Or Balsa but always thin layers to avoid a strong balsaeffect and a too low weight. But Poplar is my favourite for five ply..
With the griphalves I am more experimental. Also because I don,t have a logo and symmetric griphalves is aesthetically boring then. Some of the most beautifull blades have a-symmetric grip also...Japanese one ply hinoki,s. So it can look good also. Depends how you do it. And I think it can be funktional because bh and fh is different and the way you grip with shakehand is not symmetric as a tennisracket. Also makes it more interesting in an experimental sense.

I think the general goal was allready given earlier in the Osp thread where the idea and name of the blade origins from. So in a way it was there before the idea came up and can be read between the lines in these discussions.
More or less same as what you mentioned as a fast all wooden blade, good for longer distance looping also (not balsa)  that is not too heavy with the harder sponged rubbers often used these days.

More simple put : "to come as close
as possible to blades in the line of  viscaria, spirit or alc  for an all  wooden blade".

The reason for a more moderate speed and weight would be more the convenience for the testing round (more potential testers) and less critical to get a result that will be at least playable.


Edited by tompy - 11/11/2010 at 9:37am
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