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Pip lengths and chopping

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GeneralSpecific View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2011 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by DTopSpirit DTopSpirit wrote:

Hi guys - this is Greg - just thought I would clarify what I used.

I used to play with TSP Curl P-2 with 1.0 sponge - a medium pip. It's a good rubber with excellent control and some decent attacking capability. It could produce a reasonable amount of backspin when chopping against topspin loops, but not super heavy. I played a mix of attacking up to the table with twiddling and some long range defense so it worked fine for me.

When the Curl temporarily was out of production (or at least unavailable here in Australia), I changed to Stiga Destroyer OX (no sponge). It's a long pip but not unlike Curl P-2 in that it is not all that tricky or wobbly, has reasonable attacking ability, and a decent but not superheavy backspin chop against loop. But very nice control.

Every player is different, so some players want a long pip with a lot of spin reversal, so they can get maximum backspin and force a slower loop from their opponent which they can counterattack - such as Joo or Chen Weixing. Others want the maximum backspin in order to load up the backspin after a couple of chops, so their opponent makes a mistake when topspinning. Or to allow lots of spin variation to force mistakes.

As for me, I wanted maximum control so that I could handle my opponents loops whether I was close or away from the table, along with decent spin reversal to make them respect my chop. I would then twiddle a lot to force the mistakes from my opponent. So for my style a medium pip or a non-tricky long pip like Destroyer works well. I didn't like the TSP Curl P-1r when I tried it much, good spin reversal but a bit hard to handle.

Short version - medium pips does have a place, but it is suited to certain styles - usually such styles that need good control more than heavy backspin or disturbing wobble.

Anyway, that's my opinion.
Greg


I see so to make the most of controlled defense with medium pips you twiddle.

My playing style on the backhand is an aggressive hit and block game with chopping as my "secondary weapon" and I never twiddle. This is why I'm thinking the Palio CK531A is a good choice. Many reviews and also the product description state it's capable of fast attack hitting. So my intention is to keep my solid backhand drives and punches that I can do with 802 while having maximum reversal on my blocks and chops.
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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pnachtwey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2011 at 1:10am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:


Well I actually just ordered a sheet to test it. I mean it's only 4 dollars on ttnpp. That has to be one of the best deals out there for a rubber with such high ratings.

You must have bought 0X for that price. Let us know how it works out on your TBS.  You can't give up on it early.  You can't simply put LPs on a blade and play well.  It will takes a few weeks.  I have a LP paddle and I am still trying to get to where the LPs are doing me more good than harm.  I hope you have the patience for it. 


Nope I ordered the 1.0mm sponge. The sponge version is $4.00 and the OX version is $3.90. I will NEVER use ox.
Sponge - http://ttnpp.com/shop/palio-ck531a-long-pimple-p-205.html
OX - http://ttnpp.com/shop/palio-ck531a-long-pimple-0x-p-245.html
It will be interesting to know easy it is to chop with 1mm foam.  My 563 with 1.5mm is difficult to chop with.  Perhaps the extra 0.5 mm maks all the difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2011 at 2:35am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:


Well I actually just ordered a sheet to test it. I mean it's only 4 dollars on ttnpp. That has to be one of the best deals out there for a rubber with such high ratings.

You must have bought 0X for that price. Let us know how it works out on your TBS.  You can't give up on it early.  You can't simply put LPs on a blade and play well.  It will takes a few weeks.  I have a LP paddle and I am still trying to get to where the LPs are doing me more good than harm.  I hope you have the patience for it. 


Nope I ordered the 1.0mm sponge. The sponge version is $4.00 and the OX version is $3.90. I will NEVER use ox.
Sponge - http://ttnpp.com/shop/palio-ck531a-long-pimple-p-205.html
OX - http://ttnpp.com/shop/palio-ck531a-long-pimple-0x-p-245.html
It will be interesting to know easy it is to chop with 1mm foam.  My 563 with 1.5mm is difficult to chop with.  Perhaps the extra 0.5 mm maks all the difference. 

Your drive to learn all aspects of table tennis has impressed me quite a lot... Smile

Since I mainly chop, block chop and twiddle, perhaps I could help you shorten your various trials with chopping equipment a bit...

If your goal is to reach intermediate level by our club's standards (2150+), I suggest you start chopping exclusively with long pips with 0.5mm or no sponge on your backhand, and learn to attack viciously on your forehand.  Forget about any medium or short pips to chop on your backhand.  It's not going to help you achieve your goal based on statistical data alone.  Most players who are very serious about table tennis can not contain 2150+ level attacks to their backhand by chopping with medium or short pips.  It's simply too difficult even for many skilled players to do.  The main reason is medium and short pips do not bend enough like long pips to absorb energy upon impact, so you will have to cushion every shot with your wrist.  This doesn't sound so bad as you have found out when testing on your robot, you could chop with almost any rubber after your "grooved" your strokes.  In match situations, however, you will find yourself moving at enormous speed at all times to get into position to chop the ball, so you will need much more skillful "cushioning" than you'd ever practiced from a fixed position.  This is the reason why most choppers use a rubber that provides maximum amount of energy absorption and control of spin.  
Trust me, even with the "easiest" rubber to chop (long pips with 0.5mm or no sponge), you will still need years of intensive practice to reach 2150+ level... Stay away from inverted, semi-anti, anti, short or medium pips on your backhand if you really want to become a good chopper.  Some players with rare talents can do it, sure, but for most people who intent to learn chopping they are simply being unrealistic.  The sooner you realize this the shorter your path to success will become.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/04/2012 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:


Well I actually just ordered a sheet to test it. I mean it's only 4 dollars on ttnpp. That has to be one of the best deals out there for a rubber with such high ratings.

You must have bought 0X for that price. Let us know how it works out on your TBS.  You can't give up on it early.  You can't simply put LPs on a blade and play well.  It will takes a few weeks.  I have a LP paddle and I am still trying to get to where the LPs are doing me more good than harm.  I hope you have the patience for it. 


Nope I ordered the 1.0mm sponge. The sponge version is $4.00 and the OX version is $3.90. I will NEVER use ox.
Sponge - http://ttnpp.com/shop/palio-ck531a-long-pimple-p-205.html
OX - http://ttnpp.com/shop/palio-ck531a-long-pimple-0x-p-245.html
It will be interesting to know easy it is to chop with 1mm foam.  My 563 with 1.5mm is difficult to chop with.  Perhaps the extra 0.5 mm maks all the difference. 

Your drive to learn all aspects of table tennis has impressed me quite a lot... Smile

Since I mainly chop, block chop and twiddle, perhaps I could help you shorten your various trials with chopping equipment a bit...

If your goal is to reach intermediate level by our club's standards (2150+), I suggest you start chopping exclusively with long pips with 0.5mm or no sponge on your backhand, and learn to attack viciously on your forehand.  Forget about any medium or short pips to chop on your backhand.  It's not going to help you achieve your goal based on statistical data alone.  Most players who are very serious about table tennis can not contain 2150+ level attacks to their backhand by chopping with medium or short pips.  It's simply too difficult even for many skilled players to do.  The main reason is medium and short pips do not bend enough like long pips to absorb energy upon impact, so you will have to cushion every shot with your wrist.  This doesn't sound so bad as you have found out when testing on your robot, you could chop with almost any rubber after your "grooved" your strokes.  In match situations, however, you will find yourself moving at enormous speed at all times to get into position to chop the ball, so you will need much more skillful "cushioning" than you'd ever practiced from a fixed position.  This is the reason why most choppers use a rubber that provides maximum amount of energy absorption and control of spin.  
Trust me, even with the "easiest" rubber to chop (long pips with 0.5mm or no sponge), you will still need years of intensive practice to reach 2150+ level... Stay away from inverted, semi-anti, anti, short or medium pips on your backhand if you really want to become a good chopper.  Some players with rare talents can do it, sure, but for most people who intent to learn chopping they are simply being unrealistic.  The sooner you realize this the shorter your path to success will become.

Great post.  LOL, I wish I had seen it long time ago, but it confirms my experiences.  If I try any sponge, the thicker it is, the less I am able to control the hard loops and smashes enough to get them back on the table, much less low and spinny...
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---

Blade: TT Piet Off/All Custom 5 ply

FH: Rakza 7

BH: DTec.S Long pips



Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48168
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/04/2012 at 9:31pm
I came across this nice clip of Greg playing a while ago 




Edited by bluebucket - 06/04/2012 at 9:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/04/2012 at 10:12pm
fantastic rally!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/04/2012 at 11:56pm
I have seen that video before.  That is a fantastic rally.  It wasn't the long pips that won the point,  it was Greg's FH flat hit.

roundrobin,   I am probably about 1500 USATT but I have hit a wall.  I can't beat the the 1600 and 1700 players it a match but I can win games.   I haven't lost to anyone lower since the beginning of the year at least.   When I play with LP I play with my Firewall Plus with Giant Dragron Talon 0X on the back hand. 

I am not really a chopper but I will chop if I find my opponent can't return chops.  The average player where I play is far below 2100.  When I chop I chop with with my GD Talon 0X or sometimes with a different paddle that had 755 0X on the BH.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2012 at 1:02am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:


roundrobin,   I am probably about 1500 USATT but I have hit a wall.  I can't beat the the 1600 and 1700 players it a match but I can win games.   I haven't lost to anyone lower since the beginning of the year at least.   When I play with LP I play with my Firewall Plus with Giant Dragron Talon 0X on the back hand. 

I am not really a chopper but I will chop if I find my opponent can't return chops.  The average player where I play is far below 2100.  When I chop I chop with with my GD Talon 0X or sometimes with a different paddle that had 755 0X on the BH.



Peter, if you don't chop much and prefer to stay on the table with your LP setup, perhaps you should try something slower than Talon OX on your Firewall Plus... I'd highly recommend Spinlord Dornenglanz or Dr. Neubauer Desperado.  Either one without sponge will work better than Talon. 

The key to play with LPs right at the table is to be able to place the ball at will to either corner as deep as possible with a small motion.  Once you master this technique (like Pushblocker), you will be able to move your opponents out of position very often, thus taking them completely out of their game.  Talon is too fast for this purpose.  Dornenglanz and Desperado work better because they are slower and less spin sensitive.  Red color usually works better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2012 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

I have seen that video before.  That is a fantastic rally.  It wasn't the long pips that won the point,  it was Greg's FH flat hit.

roundrobin,   I am probably about 1500 USATT but I have hit a wall.  I can't beat the the 1600 and 1700 players it a match but I can win games.   I haven't lost to anyone lower since the beginning of the year at least.   When I play with LP I play with my Firewall Plus with Giant Dragron Talon 0X on the back hand. 

I am not really a chopper but I will chop if I find my opponent can't return chops.  The average player where I play is far below 2100.  When I chop I chop with with my GD Talon 0X or sometimes with a different paddle that had 755 0X on the BH.


I'm no expert to be telling anyone anything, but I made it from not playing for decades (only played one non sanctioned tournament in 1976 before) to mid 1600's within one year, so it is possible.  I suggest you get a match against a tough opponent taped and go back and analyze the match in slow motion, stroke by stroke to find your strengths and weaknesses.  Then try to change how you play to concentrate on avoiding and improving your weaknesses areas, and getting your strengths involved in the play.   Once you know where your weaknesses are, you can try to find ways to improve them.  I haven't played with that blade or rubber to comment on them, but suggest that if you make equipment changes that you limit changes to one at a time lest you make things worse.  I say that because its a goof I've made, changing a bunch of things, only to have to go back to the old setup because things don't work, and with too many changes, I couldn't identify which change caused the problem.


Edited by Old-Man-Southpaw - 06/05/2012 at 12:16pm
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---

Blade: TT Piet Off/All Custom 5 ply

FH: Rakza 7

BH: DTec.S Long pips



Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48168
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2012 at 12:50pm
roundrobin, I am aware of Desperado and Dornenglanz.  I have been waiting to hear more results from those that use these rubbers.  Desperado is relatively new.  Believe me,  I am quite aware as a subscribe to the LP players channels.   

I already use red rubbers on my BH as a standard.  My GD Talon 0X is red.
 
When my Talon loses a pip or two I will use that as an excuse to get a new LP and try one of the two LPs mentioned or what ever one is the latest super, must have, LP.

Old-Man-Southpaw hit the nail on the head.  I need to settle down and limit changes.  I do make videos. The real problem is keeping mental focus when tired.

       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/06/2012 at 1:41am
Pnachtwey,

Have you tried Bomb Talent? It's not the latest and hottest rubber out there, but it's certainly the funkiest rubber I have ever played against. A LP blocker at our club used it a while ago. Before, I was probably 80/20 against him, but when he used Bomb Talent, I dropped to 50/50. For some reason, he changed and now I'm back to 80/20 against him. I do think he said he had some control issues with it, but I know I "hated" to play against it.
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