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Why softer rubber on backhand? Why not H3?

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qynthnghm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2011 at 10:37am
Originally posted by johnny89atc johnny89atc wrote:

Originally posted by Rich215 Rich215 wrote:

Since I am BH dominant and attack well on that side, I like using the same rubber on both sides.  I tried using a softer rubber on the BH side, but it just didn't work out for me, if anything I can deal with a stiffer sponge on the BH side....I must be odd man out here huh. 



I also like harder tubbers for my backhand...

You two should form a club.
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mercuur View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2011 at 11:00am
Mechanical lifting (and mechanical spin) allready works with a constant  blade speed. The penetration of the ball into the sponge changes the effective bladeangle (force on the ball) to more open. Lifting by the tackiness (and this type of spin) the lift has to come more from dragging the ball upward by the tackiness. That could be why the reduced armspeed (and relaxation)  is more controlled  ; it means lower speed to begin with so more room  upward in speed for a fast short (whiplike) acceleration during (or around) contact. The intensity of this accelleration (plus a slight rounding of the ball) is an important factor for getting the throw angle high enough (lift from the topsheet brushing/dragging the ball instead of the mechanical idea of lifting).

For those interested and for explanation ; In fysics / technics  this difference is the same as between how a Tesla generator/pump funktions (laminary drag) and how a classic generator/pump funktions (mechanical).

To learn a good technicque for chinese rubbers - in my opinion -  it,s more effective to seek the control and dwelltime not too much by softer sponge but by a less resilient / fast sponge (with relatively good ballholding time thus) and more ecqual hardness as the topplayers use.  That also increases dwelltime but with the difference that the type of technicque to generate brush spin is more rewarded (with more spin and control).



Edited by mercuur - 04/28/2011 at 11:05am
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tomas.gt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomas.gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2011 at 11:35am
  1. why does more dwell time give you more control?
    more dwell gives you more time to work with the ball. more dwell time means higher spin, higher spin means higher directional stability of the ball, thus more control over the ball. You may say, that H3 is spinnier. well, it is, but on what stroke? with H3 on passive shots, you have 3 variables: speed and spin of the ball, angle of your racket. You need to have almost perfect information about spin and speed in order to adjust the angle of your racket. You simply dont have such information. With sponge, you can put (the rubber puts) your own spin on the ball and with that, you decrease the influence of the unknown variables. With sponge (=softer rubber), you need to know the spin and speed and angle, but not so much precisely.
  2. why does this explanation not apply to forehand? i.e. why doesn't your "passive game" suffer with hard rubbers on forehand?
  3. It does! but from FH, you are mostly active and even under pressure, you can make backswing and adjust the stroke and the place, where you hit the ball (before you, behind you....)

more dwell time does not mean more sensitive to spin. more dwell time means more your own spin on the ball, more control over your spin on the ball.

You want something like scientific answers. Why? Many players realized that before, experience of those players is the proof.
It is well known that players with faster and more aggressive stroke should choose harder sponges. This is simple rule when selecting rubber for you and it is proved by years of experience. So believe it.
 
I dont want to say that everybody has to play with soft dynamic euro/jap rubber on BH, for us, mortal people, there are many other things to pay attention at before changing the rubbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomas.gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2011 at 11:38am
tenergy 05 and rakza 7 are not hard rubbers. Calibra LT is not hard rubber. I cant think of non-chinese-tacky hard rubber on the market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ndragon88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2011 at 12:24pm
While I agree with everything u just said. Why do I find myself with more control with a chinese rubber on BH than I do Jap/Euro?
My BH is nothing special and yet this is still the case. Or maybe that is the reason?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Best99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 12:14am
I think the right anwer is because a hard rubber makes the generation of slow spin and the change of speeds harder, and also require a full movement to really get the real power the rubber has inside, which is impossible in a backhand stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomas.gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 4:06am
Ndragon, nothing is black or white only ;)
I was playing with H3N for a long time, xushaofa 999 I use is softer, but still harder than tenergy 05 and it is tacky. And I feel better with it than with euro/jap rubber. It is about how good you are and how good your opponents are. Also, you need to know the weaknesses of your BH and rubber and try to avoid them in a game.
btw I know player from our highest league who played with H3N (heavily tuned, though) on BH. He switched few months ago..but what I want to say - it is possible, but more difficult.
At our levels - it is not rubbers what hold us back, we lack speed and experience. I will never get into the world ranking system and even on rank 300, I would lack footwork and speed.
So it is everyones choice. If it suits you now better, use it. I keep telling myself: Fine, I lost 4 points because of my chinese rubbers on BH. I won 2 point because of chinese rubber on my BH. If I was faster, I would avoid loosing 2 points and the equation would be complete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 4:37am
Originally posted by mercuur mercuur wrote:

it,s more effective to seek the control and dwelltime not too much by softer sponge but by a less resilient / fast sponge (with relatively good ballholding time thus) and more ecqual hardness as the topplayers use.


you mean like dhs g666?

interesting. for backhand I must consider that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 6:55am
Originally posted by qynthnghm qynthnghm wrote:


Originally posted by johnny89atc johnny89atc wrote:


Originally posted by Rich215 Rich215 wrote:

Since I am BH dominant and attack well on that side, I like using the same rubber on both sides.  I tried using a softer rubber on the BH side, but it just didn't work out for me, if anything I can deal with a stiffer sponge on the BH side....I must be odd man out here huh. 

I also like harder tubbers for my backhand...

You two should form a club.


Add me to that club as well.

Btw, according to the biography, Waldner also prefers harder sponge on his bh, so it can't be all wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomas.gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 7:31am

oh my...for some mark V has harder sponge. We are talking about hard - 50 and more degrees on old scale, 39+ at dhs/haifu scale. Sriver L with speedglue is soft compared to that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ndragon88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 8:14am
Your right that you have to spot the weaknesses. I was using H3 untuned for a while. Weaknesses are obvious. I think it is based on preference and your own technique too. I brush the ball more with my BH so tacky is what I need. I cannot fully utilise a soft tensor. I don't think I could go softer than Tibhar Genius before my BH starts to get obviously weaker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bozbrisvegas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 9:05am
softer = lighter more open bat face for more surface area and more power in hitting into blade - less spin so easier to defend.

fh - harder because more power can be generated in th fh stroke -more graze more spin more etc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2011 at 10:11am
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by mercuur mercuur wrote:

it,s more effective to seek the control and dwelltime not too much by softer sponge but by a less resilient / fast sponge (with relatively good ballholding time thus) and more ecqual hardness as the topplayers use.


you mean like dhs g666?

interesting. for backhand I must consider that.


In this case I meant hard for bh and bh japanese rubber or for fh and then hard/soft for chinese proportion.
Japanese sponges are quicker/lighter and offer less dwell even when softer  then chinese and with the same topsheet. So hard relative to for instance soft tensors in max for japanese (german) type of rubber.

Chinese rubber on bh can work very well but it,s difficult to brush upward with bh and with power to get enough lift on descending balls and the mechanical spin is also not much to work with. So on bh the chinese rubbers are even more restricted to a close to table game.
But close to table I can,t see how a hard chinese sponge  in max can be really functional for bh other then that these heavy sponges can do a good job dampening and taming a fast blade.
And in softer versions they become to slow, as opposite for quick in max and for bh. 2,0 can be used with more wrist then and that only adds power for bh.

For bh due to the shorter stroke I would still prefer a quicker, lighter (but hard enough) japanese sponge underneath such topsheets though. Maybe in 2,0 instead of 2,2 and then if necessary a more controllable blade. Much more versatile for me.


Edited by mercuur - 04/29/2011 at 10:32am
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