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Attack sidespin serve return

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Alqa View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02/01/2014 at 11:07pm
Hi all ..

Just a quick beginner question I think .. and would appreciate your thoughts on it ..

When I serve a heavy sidespin backhand serve, and my opponent return ( backhand block or push ! ):

- The ball comes back with heavy sidespin, yes or no? If no, what spin?

- Why is it too difficult to loop that third ball and usually goes to the net? I need to use full power loop ( body movement, arm, feet)! Am I missing something? is not sidespin easier to loop than underspin?

Sometime I think I might be serving a heavy under-side spin and thinking it's a side spin only? is this the case!? I found it not easy to kill that third ball ( return ).

I mainly serve backhand .. but the same case when I do side spin forhand serve ..

any one seeing what I'm doing wrong here?

thank you,
Alqa
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JonathanVN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2014 at 11:53pm
1. It depends on what rubber configuration he is using. If he is using long pips or anti, then the spin will be numbed greatly. However, if it is a regular inverted set up, then expect your spin to be died down a little. It ultimately depends on how he hits the ball thought. If he uses a weird long motion push, then it could even stop the spin completely. 

2. The return you are probably receiving from your serve is heavy side-spin/underspin. In this way, a loop can actually be more difficult, and you have to read the spin extremely well to loop it properly. Try to get under the ball more and see what happens. 

3. I have that problem too. One thing I learned from a very good 2400 rated player was that solely backspin should be just a nice flick of the wrist, while side-spin is generally imparted from a brushing motion. Backspin is easier to achieve, however, so you may be executing the sidespin poorly. 

Hope I helped a little bit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2014 at 4:11am
if its an inverted rubber with grip usually it comes back with topspin or side topspin when your opponent knows how to return it since he will contact the ball at the top part of the ball because of the sidespin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alqa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2014 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by JonathanVN JonathanVN wrote:

1. It depends on what rubber configuration he is using. If he is using long pips or anti, then the spin will be numbed greatly. However, if it is a regular inverted set up, then expect your spin to be died down a little. It ultimately depends on how he hits the ball thought. If he uses a weird long motion push, then it could even stop the spin completely. 

2. The return you are probably receiving from your serve is heavy side-spin/underspin. In this way, a loop can actually be more difficult, and you have to read the spin extremely well to loop it properly. Try to get under the ball more and see what happens. 

3. I have that problem too. One thing I learned from a very good 2400 rated player was that solely backspin should be just a nice flick of the wrist, while side-spin is generally imparted from a brushing motion. Backspin is easier to achieve, however, so you may be executing the sidespin poorly. 

Hope I helped a little bit. 


Thanks for your thoughts, my question was with the assumptions tat my opponent use inverted rubber. I would probably practice more the same shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2014 at 3:46pm
It depends on what serve you're doing and on what your opponent is doing in response. Are you doing an Ovtcharov-like BH side spin serve or is is a Kong Linghui-like BH side spin serve?

You say you're doing a heavy side-spin BH serve and your opponent is doing a BH block using an inverted rubber.  This means that it is mostly the spin and pace of your serve that carries the ball back to your side. When it comes back to you it will have the "reverse" spin (as if you did a sidespin serve in the opposite direction). You need to be prepared for that. 

One way to figure out what to do is to reduce the amount of spin on your serve. Assuming the same return, you'll get back less spin and it should be easier for you to loop. Once you get comfortable with that,  try to increase the spin on your serve again, and repeat.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2014 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Alqa Alqa wrote:

Hi all ..

Just a quick beginner question I think .. and would appreciate your thoughts on it ..

When I serve a heavy sidespin backhand serve, and my opponent return ( backhand block or push ! ):

- The ball comes back with heavy sidespin, yes or no? If no, what spin?

- Why is it too difficult to loop that third ball and usually goes to the net? I need to use full power loop ( body movement, arm, feet)! Am I missing something? is not sidespin easier to loop than underspin?

Sometime I think I might be serving a heavy under-side spin and thinking it's a side spin only? is this the case!? I found it not easy to kill that third ball ( return ).

I mainly serve backhand .. but the same case when I do side spin forhand serve ..

any one seeing what I'm doing wrong here?

thank you,
Alqa

 You are pre-determining that you can kill the return, I know good players make it look easy, but hours and hours of practice go into making this a relaxed consistent part of a players armoury, and no easy answer is possible, just lots of practice. Also the  side spin is working against your f/hand in this case so you need to open your bat face and lift more, but do not go for pace or a winner, just play a deep high arcing loop preferably down the line so you are playing against the spin less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smiths9312 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2014 at 9:47am

If I block or push that shot, my goal is to keep it low with a bit of underspin and to place it for an awkward shot on your part. One that will go into the net if you try to attack.  My goal is to force a return push which I can loop or a weak loop that I can kill. If I were you, I'd just practice a regular loop, brushing against the crown of the ball at the top of the bounce that you can hit consistently and place where you want it.

Push it back once or twice to see what happens. I've played against good push/blockers and you can't just bully them, you have to move them around to score. I find you can wait for better opportunities.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dabookerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2014 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

It depends on what serve you're doing and on what your opponent is doing in response. Are you doing an Ovtcharov-like BH side spin serve or is is a Kong Linghui-like BH side spin serve?

You say you're doing a heavy side-spin BH serve and your opponent is doing a BH block using an inverted rubber.  This means that it is mostly the spin and pace of your serve that carries the ball back to your side. When it comes back to you it will have the "reverse" spin (as if you did a sidespin serve in the opposite direction). You need to be prepared for that. 

One way to figure out what to do is to reduce the amount of spin on your serve. Assuming the same return, you'll get back less spin and it should be easier for you to loop. Once you get comfortable with that,  try to increase the spin on your serve again, and repeat.



+1

Keep in mind that it can be easy to serve way above your level and so when your opponent returns it to you then you have something that you're not prepared to handle.  Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2014 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by dabookerman dabookerman wrote:

Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

It depends on what serve you're doing and on what your opponent is doing in response. Are you doing an Ovtcharov-like BH side spin serve or is is a Kong Linghui-like BH side spin serve?

You say you're doing a heavy side-spin BH serve and your opponent is doing a BH block using an inverted rubber.  This means that it is mostly the spin and pace of your serve that carries the ball back to your side. When it comes back to you it will have the "reverse" spin (as if you did a sidespin serve in the opposite direction). You need to be prepared for that. 

One way to figure out what to do is to reduce the amount of spin on your serve. Assuming the same return, you'll get back less spin and it should be easier for you to loop. Once you get comfortable with that,  try to increase the spin on your serve again, and repeat.



+1

Keep in mind that it can be easy to serve way above your level and so when your opponent returns it to you then you have something that you're not prepared to handle.  Dead
Never thought of that - I'll have to keep this in mind!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dabookerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2014 at 3:10pm
Unfortunately I have done that a lot so I speak from experience... Ouch
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Alqa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alqa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2014 at 3:47am
Totally agree, I see it myself.


Also, I was doing the same serve with less spin aiming to get an attackable third ball, hitting it was was easier. I need more time on this.

cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2014 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by dabookerman dabookerman wrote:

Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

It depends on what serve you're doing and on what your opponent is doing in response. Are you doing an Ovtcharov-like BH side spin serve or is is a Kong Linghui-like BH side spin serve?

You say you're doing a heavy side-spin BH serve and your opponent is doing a BH block using an inverted rubber.  This means that it is mostly the spin and pace of your serve that carries the ball back to your side. When it comes back to you it will have the "reverse" spin (as if you did a sidespin serve in the opposite direction). You need to be prepared for that. 

One way to figure out what to do is to reduce the amount of spin on your serve. Assuming the same return, you'll get back less spin and it should be easier for you to loop. Once you get comfortable with that,  try to increase the spin on your serve again, and repeat.



+1

Keep in mind that it can be easy to serve way above your level and so when your opponent returns it to you then you have something that you're not prepared to handle.  Dead
Never thought of that - I'll have to keep this in mind!
Brian Pace once pointed this out (and someone said that Pace made no sense).  It's pretty straightforward.  The more spin on your serve, the more spin you get back on a passive return (most lower rated players push passively for a variety of reasons).  For active return's it is more complicated, but usually true as well.
 
Avoid serving in a way that makes it too hard for you to attack the third ball.  It took me a long time to be able to attack behind my best serves and even then, I sometimes avoid using my best serves because I am too lazy to attack behind them.  Sidespin and backspin tend to be the worst offenders.  For sidespin, you have to be prepared for the return to kick so you have to adjust.  For backspin, you have to be ready to deal with the backspin you have placed on the ball.  In fact, if you serve heavy backspin long and your opponent loops it, you have to be ready to deal with the topspin on the ball which will be heavier than usual (which is why the counterloop of the opening loop is usually different from the rally counterloop).
 
 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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