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Table Tennis Serves Heavy Backspin |
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DavidPen
Beginner Joined: 02/21/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Posted: 02/21/2014 at 2:28am |
Hi,
I am a Chinese Penhold player and I have been having difficulties in serving "heavy backspin" forehand serves, both short serves and long servers. I have been doing some research and reading lots of table tennis articles as well as watching lots of Youtube videos but still can't get this right. I know that to impart lots of spin, you need speed, need to brush more and heavy upon contact. In one of your articles, it says to impact more backspin, you need to contact from the tip of the racket so that you can get the ball to stay longer in your bat and at the same time brushing the ball faster using your forearm and wrist. Also in one of your articles, it says that your racket needs to be vertical as horizontal will produce more sidetop side under. Please explain and clarify further and help me to get this right. I would like to be able to produce very very heavy backspin serves both short and long so that the ball really sinks down and one has to lift the chop up in order to get this over the net. How do I do this ? Please help. Thanks. DavidPen |
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IllSonny
Super Member Joined: 07/24/2011 Location: Saint Paul Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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If you could post a video of yourself it would help. I still consider myself a beginner so dont take my advice too strongly. From how I learn backspin serves, your paddle needs to be horizontal (parallel to the floor). What really helped me to get heavy underspin is to imagine my stroke going up and forward while contacting on the bottom of the ball. Contacting on the edge of the paddle also gives it more spin. Adding a quick wrist flick on contact will add more spin also but can cause your serves to be inconsistent if you don't train your serves. Just something to remember though, if you're serving heavy spin, expect heavy spin to come back at you. Hope this helps.
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IllSonny
Super Member Joined: 07/24/2011 Location: Saint Paul Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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DavidPen
Beginner Joined: 02/21/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks for that.
I like the Ma Lin style, horizontal and then upwards. The ball seems quite spiny as it is moving backwards after hitting the other side of the table. It looks like more forearm and not much wrist. Is this right ? |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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Very impressive IIISonny!
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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I agree with what Sonny said. I try to think of it as hitting the front of the ball. That coupled with a high Toss will get you a lot of backSpin.
Service is the strongest part of my game, but I find pure backspin, as a penholder, somewhat hard to do. Generally all my serves have some form pendulum, side motion to them just because of the natural angle of the blade.I find shake hand much easier to angle the blade for pure backspin. In my experience it's not the heavy backspin serve that gets people. it's the backspin that also looks like your knuckle or pure sidespin serve that works. How similar do they all look? Edited by suds79 - 02/21/2014 at 10:37am |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2334 |
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For pure backspin, you can strike the ball anywhere from the 00:15 to 00:45 clock dial position. Experiment with all of them and see the difference. Then think of when you'd use any of those strike points.
Edited by Tinykin - 02/21/2014 at 10:38am |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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I find that if I just chop a backspin serve the spin it isn't that heavy.
When I chop flick the backspin serve so the bat returns to its starting position the spin is heavier. Flick forwards on contact and backwards quickly. Also, if you throw the ball up chop and test spinning balls into your hand, you will begin to understand the timing (dwell) of your rubber and find the optimum stroke time for best ball spin. It's not always about doing it as fast as you can because the sponge does play a part. Hope it helps... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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DavidPen
Beginner Joined: 02/21/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks Cranestyle. I will try this out. Yes, I agree just
serving forward doesn't produce much spin. The Ma Lin style seems to work too. Going forward and scooping upwards. Cheers DavidPen |
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y0da
Beginner Joined: 02/23/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Hi DavidPen,
I'm not a CP player myself but I guess the physics of a spinning ball remain true across all blade holding styles. First you need to know what kind of a short backspin serve you want to achieve. Slow or fast in terms of speed and how much spin you want to impart. Additionally you might want to think of the desired behaviour for the second bounce. Do you want the ball to slighty pop up into the server, bounce in the same angle or let it return to the net? The behaviour of the ball during the second bounce (grip,slip,trajectory) is determined by the spin to speed ratio of your ball. Simply put, a fast and spinny (backspin!) serve will bounce into the enemy with nearly the same angle it hit the table. A fast and not so spinny serve will slightly pop up. A slow and spinny serve will slightly pop up. A slow and not so spinny serve (speed to spin ratio = 1) will bounce back into the net. Please note that the spin and speed ratio where the ball returns to the net can be determined exactly but I didn't mentioned it because it dont helps you practising it if you know the exact values. Regarding the technical suggestions: Use the area near the tip of your blade because it possesses the highest velocity of all points of your blade and has a good control compared to the bouncy region in the blade middle (sweet spot). In my opinion it's false that a fast forward and backward motion like CraneStyle mentioned gives you more spin. Most people think they serve with more spin this way but they actually don't impart as much spin as they usually do. Since the motion has to be reversed shortly after the ball contact, they can't and won't swing as fast as they are used to and get close to the point where the spin speed ratio is equal to one. This leads balls to pop up more and dont let them jump into the receiver, maybe even let it bounce back to the net and tricks people into believing they created more spin. To give an actual advice, start with less spin and speed. Try to hit the lower hemisphere of the ball and at the region near the blade tip. Try to let the ball bounce back on it's first bounce on your table half. Once you can do this, slightly increase the speed. If you can keep the contact point and brushing motion, the velocity increase of your blade will increase the imparted spin in the same ratio. The idea that certain spots on the racket increase the ball contact time is false aswell, explanation left out because it's already a wall of text. I hope that helped you more than it confused you. |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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@y0da - Surely there are many tips and techniques and Davidpe
will ultimately find what works for him. I find considering the return stroke ensures that the bat isn't left on the ball putting drag on it and reducing the desired backspin; just sharing a version of the stoke. As far as dwell time is concerned, it is relevant (not related to parts of the bat) and is also related to the height of the ball toss. The feel of this dwell and spin proportion to ball toss can be experimented with when spinning the ball into your hand. ... Edited by CraneStyle - 02/24/2014 at 3:13am |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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DavidPen
Beginner Joined: 02/21/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks for all the tips. When brushing the tip of the blade
though you can get more racket speed but you will get less dwelling time and may not be able to get more spin. Unless you really brush the short area very very rapidly which is very difficult to do. Having increased dwelling time on the blade would be easier for most players. Having said this it's still difficult to produce heavy spins. There must be an easier way ???? |
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SKRHG
Member Joined: 12/25/2013 Location: Urf Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Go Ma Lin....
Except couple things: 1) You need a good finish... otherwise having a heavy spin serve is entirely useless 2) You need a lot of wrist too... so it should be used like a whip 3) Like all Ma Lin ghost serves, you need to go up on the ball (also, why you need a good finish) Honestly, blade doesn't matter that much as long as the technique and timing are there. Also, consider high toss. If you have ever seen Yi Chi Zhang's serves (he's a shakehand), incorporate his serve style with Ma Lin's technique, and you'll be winning nearly all of your points off serves, though it is probably wiser to leave this as a last resort. Ahh every time, I meet a penhold player I get so sad, because their serves have so much potential... I guess there are some disadvantages for being a shakehand after all xD
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DavidPen
Beginner Joined: 02/21/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Thanks for the tips. Somehow I couldn't find Yi Chi Zhang serves.
Can u email me the link please ? I will try these out. Cheers DavidPen |
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y0da
Beginner Joined: 02/23/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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@DavidPen Especially what hint or resource finally helped you to solve your problem. Looking forward for your progress report . |
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marcos78
Super Member Joined: 10/18/2010 Location: Cuba Status: Offline Points: 137 |
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Hello, I am a beginner too, penhold without remedy. I always wonder how to exploit the famous advantage of the penhold wrist, and never satisficied with my serves, when using wrist they are mostly too high, I was lately trying to replicate Xu xin serves like here, getting mixed results, I found it required enormous energy and got tired my shoulder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfKKC5rOlp4 |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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+1
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Eliminate the word backspin from you vocabulary and use underspin instead. Backspin leads players to believe your stroke should come down the back of the ball. Underspin tells you to stroke under the ball. The less back and the more under you do, the heavier the spin will be on the ball. Try to have your stroke be so far under the ball that the contact is almost on the other side of the ball.
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bes
Super Member Joined: 04/26/2014 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 201 |
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Try bending your knees and getting lower.
When serving with penhold (forehand) you need to get a little lower due to the difference in height caused by the wrist position. Shakehands players hit HF serves with their wrist down while penholders must have their wrists up ("more up"? or maybe just "less down"?). bes
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marcos78
Super Member Joined: 10/18/2010 Location: Cuba Status: Offline Points: 137 |
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Drill Your Skills with China National Team - Part 7 - YouTube
Look at that, maybe is useful, thanks for all the tips !! |
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