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the backspin smash...

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MAkira View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/27/2014 at 9:47am
I know i know, it is a very inconsistent shot and if i'm coming against it frequently then I'm clearly doing something very wrong.  Every once in a great while, i come accross someone who in their smash they go under the ball instead of over it causing it to be a backspin smash. This is yet another shot that i do not have a lot of experience playing against and i would like help learning how to overcome and recover from this shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 11:43am
The chop smash is actually very hard to deal with. If you play against a lobber, that shot is gonna stop them from lobbing. They'll have to push it back or lift a lot, and the ball still won't be high.

The hard part is to land that shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by MAkira MAkira wrote:

I know i know, it is a very inconsistent shot and if i'm coming against it frequently then I'm clearly doing something very wrong.  Every once in a great while, i come accross someone who in their smash they go under the ball instead of over it causing it to be a backspin smash. This is yet another shot that i do not have a lot of experience playing against and i would like help learning how to overcome and recover from this shot.
I think you answered your own question.  But in any case, the answer is no different from defending against any chopped ball in general.  You gotta lift the ball and open your racket.  IF the spin is heavy, you need to have good racket head speed on contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAkira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 1:26pm
i tend to just try and lob it up which just lets them go for it again. the trajectory of the chop smash is so strange that i can't get a goood feel of where it goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by MAkira MAkira wrote:

i tend to just try and lob it up which just lets them go for it again. the trajectory of the chop smash is so strange that i can't get a goood feel of where it goes.

Because you are rushed for time but if you are so concerned about it (as opposed to really trying to avoid it), have someone give you a few in multiball to loop back.  Usually, such strokes freeze us more than they should because we aren't already determined to be aggressive.  

In fact, if you don't care about losing, play the chop smasher as often as you can and play into his chop smash based on the pattern that leads to it and try to be more aggressive.  I sometimes do that against players who have a slow shot that annoys me so I can figure out what is on the ball.  Of course, I usually do this against a player I can beat comfortably but in any case, I figure that if his ball troubles me, a stronger player could just as well produce it and I would be giving away free points in a match when I can't give up as many.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 1:46pm
I don't have much, if any, experience with backspin smashes but I would think that it's such a high risk shot that I would just let them try it.  You could also avoid giving them the ball that allows them to try it.  As next level said, let them do it and practice returning it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 1:54pm
I doubt that this shot you are talking about is a "backspin smash".  I don't know of anyone that actually smashes a ball with underspin, except possibly in the case where they are hitting a ball that bounces up really high, and even then it would be extremely risky it smash it with underspin.

My guess is that this shot is actually a flat hit return instead of the usual topspin counterdrive return that most people will hit.  I love to hit this flat hit return against a chopper when their chop return is a little high.  I play inverted on both sides, so this can be a bit risky and touchy to pull off.  The safe thing to do is to loop counterdrive, which choppers are also more comfortable in returning.  However, I've found that opening up the face of the blade slightly and hitting flat through the ball produces a more dead-spin return to the chopper that they find very difficult to handle.

I've also seen many who use short pips that are more easily able to flat hit through chop/push that is popped up a bit too high.  This has the same effect as what I described with the inverted rubber technique.  The ball doesn't have underspin, rather it is mostly dead (or at least a lot less topspin).  The thing about dead-spin balls is that it forces the person to put spin on the ball themselves, rather than being able to utilize the spin on the ball in their return.

So, first of all avoid getting these returns by keeping your pushes and chops low, because this flat hit return is difficult to deal with.  If you get the dead-spin smash, then you need to loop or chop, i.e. you need to generate spin to give an effective return.  Not doing so and simply blocking back will give an easy put away to your opponent, unless your block stays very low to the net.


Edited by geardaddy - 08/27/2014 at 2:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 2:19pm
If you get a ball that is high and not all that deep, then you have a lot of margin for error and can go for that shot with power. If you are able to hit that shot with any power, it will carry and go out of bounds before the opponent can get a bat on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAkira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 2:53pm
the reason he developed his backspin smash was because he used to only play with a push. he would do push only games with people and was so uncomfortable with a smash that he would just chop smash it. He definitely loses more points than he gains with it so it's not really much of an issue. I would just like to be more comfortable with returning it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by MAkira MAkira wrote:

the reason he developed his backspin smash was because he used to only play with a push. he would do push only games with people and was so uncomfortable with a smash that he would just chop smash it. He definitely loses more points than he gains with it so it's not really much of an issue. I would just like to be more comfortable with returning it.
Someone gave me this advice recently and I have found it helpful - always watch the stroke of your opponent and incorporate as much information from it as possible into your stroke consciously, which will become unconscious over time.  Don't just say "he pushed - backspin" - be more like 'he pushed backspin with a 30 degree angle, so it is heavier if he is putting heavy chop on the ball than a push with a 75 degree angle, so be ready " and if your read is wrong, it tells you something that you need to look for even more. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

If you get a ball that is high and not all that deep, then you have a lot of margin for error and can go for that shot with power. If you are able to hit that shot with any power, it will carry and go out of bounds before the opponent can get a bat on it.

Agreed.  As satisfying as it is to smash or loop kill to win the point, this is by far my favorite shot.  It's rare that I get a chance to use it though.  The ball essentially has to be high, slow, and can't be deep for it to be a safe shot.

When done right it will typically have a ton of backspin and sidespin and it seems like it just keeps on rising and veering away from the table.  It's extremely difficult to return without a TON of space.  I've seen Robert Roberts of the Westchester club fooling around and having the other guy chop slam (that's what I call it) and he'd end up 2 tables away returning the ball.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 6:06pm
I also don't really get many chance to do this shot either, but vs an opponent who is good at retrieving, either a very fast topspin shot rising into hiz grill or the chop smash are the only ways to finish the point vs that type who is almost as hard to kill as Dracula himself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2014 at 8:13pm
Your lobs should land deeper and I think it will be harder for them backspin smash. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAkira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:01pm
thanks for all the help everyone, i will just not worry about it much, it is a rare shot and i don't expect to face it anytime again soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:23pm
Noob Question whats a Backspin Smash ?
Any video of someone doing it ? I thought Smash was a flat hit Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAkira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by viva viva wrote:

Noob Question whats a Backspin Smash ?
Any video of someone doing it ? I thought Smash was a flat hit Confused

only happens when the ball is lobbed up pretty high and not deep. but imagine a player that doesnt hold the paddle right and swings straight down at the ball. they aren't going to go OVER the ball like you would with your smash. a lot of the time they'll hit too far and the ball will "float" away. well basically it would be this kind of a hit that hits your side of the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:40pm
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26745

in the video on this thread - there is a perfect example of the backspin smash

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:44pm
A well executed chop smash cannot be returned. It's the most devastating stroke in table tennis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAkira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

A well executed chop smash cannot be returned. It's the most devastating stroke in table tennis.

great to know! no more looping for me. I will only work on the chop smash for the rest of my table tennis careerLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:50pm
You will still need to loop from time to time. Just to set up the decisive chop smash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 2:54pm
kim taek soo used to switch from his straight ph grip to a shakehand style grip with his j/k racket - to perform the chop smash

(also would do that fishing to his wide bh, occasionally)

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 3:04pm

In the famous quote from Mr. Miyagi.."If do right...no can defense". I do this "chop-slam" once in a while when someone is lobbing to me. I don't think anyone has ever gotten it back.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 3:05pm
 The greatest master of the chop smash is Kim Ki-Taek. He used this stroke to beat the likes of Waldner and Persson.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger Stillabower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 5:21pm
A couple guys do this at the club I play at, every time I am on the receiving end I go ol shit, it is impossible to re-turn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2014 at 3:45pm
A backspin smash is only really an option as an attacking stroke if there is to be consistency, if the ball presented is easy, close to the net and high. If successful it generally means the end of the point in all standards. The best defence is to keep the ball deep, or if short, tight. If you do get bat on ball for a retrieval, a chop back is the most consistent option, a smash less so but can be effective, a lob risky, and an attempted loop a definite no no.   
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