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Ball Placement and Stroke Difficulty |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Posted: 03/21/2015 at 1:31am |
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Based on an insight from watching TTEdge Videos by Brett Clarke and reading Larry Hodges blogs and of course Brian Pace terminology and insights as well. APW46 (Andy Wignall) is notorious for stressing the importance of avoiding the middle of the table for a player who wants to improve without spending his life in the gym. Very good players have spoken about ball placement, especially with regard to depth, going wide and elbow placement. I will focus here on depth and going wide. Terminology: The first third of your side closest to the net is called the short area, the second third is called the medium/mid area and the last third closest to you is called the deep area. Balls may also go off the sides of the table after landing in one of these areas. Brian Pace likes to call the short area Quadrant 1, the middle area Quadrant 2, the deep area Quadrant 3 and the area/ball going off into the sides Quadrant 4. I will use his terminology going forward. Most returns placed in Quadrant 2 are considered good for drills/coaching and bad for matches. Why? Because most balls placed in quadrant 2 have bounced too early and will peak in quadrant 3 or just off the table into the optimal height for the opponent's stroke. Also, because these are the easiest balls, they are the balls most often practiced and used in warmups and drills when learning. Most opponents have practiced attacking these balls consistently, so at a certain level or higher, putting balls in quadrant 2 and letting them peak in quadrant 3 is asking to lose the point. On the other hand, you can tell a bad coach pretty quickly if you are learning a skill/stroke for the first time and they are not repeatedly feeding you balls in quadrant 2 to give you practice. Do realize that while you might not get Quadrant 2 balls against better opponents in matches, it is unlikely that you will learn in a relaxed manner if you have to practice against Quadrant 1, Quadrant 3 and Quadrant 4 balls while learning. Quadrant 1 balls will barely come off the table if they do and will force you to come in to play strokes over the table which will add stress to your learning. Quadrant 3 balls will come in deep and rush you and give you less time to do your stroke. Quadrant 4 balls will require you to cut them off over the table or to return them from wide positions. When you want to make things difficult in practice, use Quadrant 1, Quadrant 3 or Quadrant 4 balls while not radically adjusting your position to the table at the start of the drill. Also, strive to produce Quadrant 1, Quadrant 3 or Quadrant 4 balls to improve the quality of your shots. Quadrant 1 balls are most commonly used in serves and short pushing, and sometimes in blocks as well. Pips blockers should practice producing quadrant 1 balls as part of range training even if ultimately the balls are really quadrant 2 balls which barely make it to quadrant 3 as this helps bring in mid distance loopers or lobbers/fishers who love playing off the table. Even without placing balls to the elbow, Quadrant 3 balls will always gain you time as the opponent has wait for the ball to bounce and has a longer distance over which he has to return the ball. If the opponent is too close to the table, a Quadrant 3 ball will jam him. Quadrant 4 balls are usually produced with sidespin or by punishing high quadrant 1/2 balls by going for wide angles. Athletic opponents deal better with quadrant 4 balls, but sometimes, the goal is not to win a point with the shot, but to at least put the option/threat in the mind of the opponent. Winning the point works as well. Hitting the sidelines before going into off the table in any direction can also be considered quadrant 4 and the quality of the placement often makes opponents watch the shot. <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The above also helps explain why a shot you seem to be making in practice is missed during a match. If you are used to practicing against quadrant 2 shots, you will miss more than your fair share of Quadrant 3 shots unless you learn to make the adjustments to handle them (shorter strokes or moving backwards, for example). I point this out so that players will not assume automatically that they are missing shots in matches that they make in practice. While this might be true, sometimes, slight differences in depth or other aspects of ball placement can affect and rush you. Evaluate and adjust as best you can.</span> In summary: 1) Understand how the different ball placements affect the difficulty of the shots you have to make, both based on where you have to hit the ball and where you have to place the ball. 2) Use them to evaluate the quality of your opponent's shots and the quality of your shots when you try to understand why a ball is causing you or your opponent trouble. Sometimes, you have to take steps to prevent your opponents from repeatedly giving you hard shots and these placement tips can be helpful. 3) Remember that it is bad to start learning new and difficult strokes with balls that are not Quadrant 2 balls. Of course, this should be kept in context. Quadrant 2 balls should not be pushed short, so you have to practice short pushing vs. Quadrant 1 balls. You also have to learn flicks vs Quadrant 1 balls. But if you want to learn to third ball deep balls, don't use quadrant 1 or quadrant 3 deep balls. Quadrant 3 deep balls will rush you and Quadrant 1 deep balls will usually barely come off the table. Start with Quadrant 2 and build up from there. IF you don't have the control to create quadrant 2 balls, use multiball or a robot. These are the most beneficial practical applications of multiballs and robots for learners. IT will help you relax and have some fun while learning, which are ultimately the most important things in TT development. Edited by NextLevel - 03/21/2015 at 9:21am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NoRema
Silver Member Joined: 02/04/2015 Location: On The Table Status: Offline Points: 564 |
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Great informative post NL! this will surely help players out!
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Thanks for giving me something to work on.
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jrscatman
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Thanks - very helpful
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Butterfly MPS
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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The mark of class is to get the ball into these 'quadrants' with a direct relationship as to where your opponent is, that means reading the game ahead of time. As a simple golden rule, keep the ball out of your opponents middle third of the table for the reasons stated above.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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The various skills which compose reading the point is a fundamental prereq to any of this. The mark of class there is being able to tell lesser players that they have plenty of time to take the shot. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I debated whether you wanted to be listed in the credits section or not. Will edit to list you and you can tell me to remove your name if not. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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APW46
Assistant Moderator Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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No, that is fine I'm glad to add weight to your article.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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APW46
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yes, every player has the same amount of time available, its a task to get players to utilise that time to their own advantage, many never get beyond the self absorption of constantly committing to outright winners and trying to force the ball with critically high risk. Instead of taking each ball on its merits and out playing the opponent before committing to a winning shot with lower risk.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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Brian pace's serve quadrants:
https://dynamictabletennis.com/table-tennis-serves-serving-deep/ |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Other than the better decision making, by reading the situation earlier they literally have more time to move and take the shot. That extra time to do pretty much whatever creates the opportunity for advantage. |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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APW46 (or NL) could you give an example of reading the game ahead of time? It's always better to place a ball in quadrant three than two, isn't it, for any given line of travel?
This is a bit advanced for me since I am still working towards always aiming the ball at the table. But do you mean aiming to wide corners and middle, per larrytt, or something more? Also NL, if you see that an opponent is hitting consistently into quadrant three and you are missing as a result, what's your response? Move back? Improve your shot quality to try to stop him from hitting deep to you? In what way? Great tip for robot/multiball practice, thanks.
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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I painted the Brian Pace Quadrants lines on my tt table today. I use the table only with my robot and serving practice and I can see how useful it can be to practice both serving and setting up various robot returns.
Thanks NL for starting the thread..
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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BRS, This is a bit advanced for me since I am still working towards always aiming the ball at the table. None of this is advanced for you at all given your current rating level and strokes. The more I read some of the stories from people like you who work hard at your games without the presence of a coach or higher level player to guide your progress, the more I shake my head. Keeping the ball on the table (in ALL practice drills) should always be done with an attention to aiming at targets, whether real or imagined. It helps to see how much the shot you play deviated from the shot you intended to play and then try to reduce the gap. The goal is not to be 100% accurate, but to build higher levels of control into your stroke so you can put the balls in good spots both when you have time and when you are under pressure. If I do a third ball drill, I always try to go cross court and down the line. Same with serves or just about any stroke. I can't radically improve my power with my bad knees so I try to make sure I slow my opponents down by keeping them guessing on my placement. I also try to make the strokes look similar so I can withhold intentions until the last second. APW46 (or NL) could you give an example of reading the game ahead of time? Reading the game ahead of time is largely about anticipation and point construction. The easiest way to anticipate is to watch your opponent play someone else before you play him. Or you can remember some of the things he has done on previous points. Or even his tendencies under pressure or on third ball (always cross court for example). I remember someone pointing out that two of the deuce game winning points in ZJK-ML at the 2014 World Cup final ended with exactly the same play and a win for ZJK - a serve by ML to the short mid forehand and a Banana flick by ZJK to ML's wide forehand - and arguing that it showed that one player was paying attention to patterns and the other wasn't. More generally, things like looking at the first bounce of the serve or watching your opponent's stance (whether he wants to play a backhand or forehand) can give you hints about what he is trying to do and let you know what kind of placement will cause him trouble. Also realize that while a player might have a strong forehand, a strong forehand vs. topspin might be a pathetic forehand vs. backspin. And a strong forehand vs. backspin and topspin might be pathetic at handling no spin. At the level you play at, most players have strong tendencies of this kind so it helps to notice them, though it is probably easier for the right kind of coach to help you do so. Point construction (as used here) is realizing that you don't have to go for a risky winner off many kinds of returns - you can strategically put the opponent into worse situations with lower risk shots and get weaker returns which you can put away more easily. A common example is when an opponent, who is a blocker, pushes the ball to you long and deep - this is common below the 2000 rating as many players cannot counterloop slow spinny loops and only block them. You can either smash the ball, loop drive the ball, spin the ball up or push the ball back. Smashing the ball if successful would likely result in a winner or highly advantageous position. However, it is highly risky with low margin for error. Loop driving the ball is less risky than smashing the ball and if done well, is also likely to result in a winner. However, the extra pace would likely require a greater commitment from you and you might be unable to recover if the ball is blocked back. Spinning the ball up to a good spot on the table is probably the best play because your opponent is a blocker. It gives you time to set up for the next shot which will likely come back higher and you can always reloop if it does not. Pushing the ball back is too passive if you are looper though it might be a good option if your opponent is never going to attack backspin and doesn't have that good a push and you can push to a good location. You might get a better ball to attack. The main point is that you don't have to go for a power drive winner on the first shot against a low return or a return you are late to or sometimes any return for that matter. You can place the ball in spots with kinds of spins that provoke weaker returns and then use that to your advantage. As you get better, opponents may handle these safer shots that provoke weaker returns better so you may have to use riskier or higher quality shots to get weaker returns. But the point is that you don't have to attack quality balls aggressively - you can build up advantages like a chess master and then strike a punishing blow. Of course, being able to trust your consistency and placement in a rally helps with this process. It's always better to place a ball in quadrant three than two, isn't it, for any given line of travel? Quadrant 3 is better when the opponent is close to the table, Quadrant 2 can be better when the opponent has backed off as long as the quadrant 2 ball isn't peaking too high in Quadrant 3. That's part of the point about reading the opponent's position. Usually, I tend to block in Quadrant 2 with a bias for Quadrant 4 vs. U1800 loopers who back off the table because I know they do not have the weapons to hurt me from distance and that eventually, the ball gets shorter and shorter and wider and brings them in or leads to their missing because they have to generate power they don't have the technique for. Hitting the ball back to them rewards them by giving them power to use. The converse is true if they are closer to the table - then the depth bothers them as well as the pace so I hit/loop the ball harder. But do you mean aiming to wide corners and middle, per larrytt, or something more? Hitting the corners is part of it (the middle is a bit different), but the reason why I wrote this was so that people could watch and appreciate TT better as well - this kind of stuff may explain why one player is out rallying another, or might help you explain why you are missing for third ball attack in drills or matches. But when people don't realize it, they may think their stroke is bad, rather than realize that the ball placement is rushing them. And when the opponent is attacking all their quality low balls, they may think their push is bad, not realizing that they are putting the push into the opponent's strike zones. You may see your opponent missed this shot and not that one and think it was an accident, and it sometimes is, but more often is not. I have played matches where it was worth popping up the ball just to avoid putting the ball into the opponent's sweet spot. But to come to that conclusion, you have to trust your read of the situation. Also NL, if you see that an opponent is hitting consistently into quadrant three and you are missing as a result, what's your response? Move back? Improve your shot quality to try to stop him from hitting deep to you? In what way? The first thing is that a man's gotta know and sometimes accept his limitations. I say sometimes accept because you shouldn't be so accepting that you aren't willing to take risks in trying things when nothing seems to be working - it's a best of 5, not a best of 1. The most common situations where quadrant 3 balls may be affecting your quality of return repeatedly are deep serves and deep pushes. The more advanced your technique, the more options you have. Moving back is the basic option, but that also exposes you to short serves and pushes in some contexts. Improving or changing your return that allows the deep push is another option, but again, it depends on what you get on the other return you can choose. That's why it's helpful to have at least two options vs. any ball. Nowadays, I try to use shorter strokes to pick up the ball by using the wrists more so I don't have to back up as much. This might be more effective against some opponents than the other options but in addition to requiring advanced technique, may not be the solution to a specific opponent. I may still have to back up a little anyways. Great tip for robot/multiball practice, thanks. Anytime, anytime. Just make sure that the technique you are using to adjust to the more difficult ball is correct - bad habits are hard to fix in this sport. One of the goals of this post is to help you realize when/how your opponent is outplaying you with ball depth and to hopefully get you not as frustrated as you would have been if this wasn't obvious. I am trying to preach relatively tension free table tennis, where you appreciate your technique and its limitations. If you understand the difference between practice placements and match placements and how the latter test your footwork/anticipation skills, you will have less stress to deal with when things are not going the way you think they should because you now know better.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/21/2015 at 11:12pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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flatstyk
Member Joined: 01/31/2012 Location: central US Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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These gems come at a time when I have recently vowed to work on these areas. It is nice to see someone else noting the importance. Great stuff!
"...many never get beyond the self absorption of constantly committing to outright winners and trying to force the ball with critically high risk. Instead of taking each ball on its merits and out playing the opponent before committing to a winning shot with lower risk." (from APW46) "vs. U1800 loopers who back off the table because I know they do not have the weapons to hurt me from distance and that eventually, the ball gets shorter and shorter and wider and brings them in or leads to their missing because they have to generate power they don't have the technique for. Hitting the ball back to them rewards them by giving them power to use." (NL) "you don't have to attack quality balls aggressively - you can build up advantages like a chess master and then strike a punishing blow." (NL) Thanks! |
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Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
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According to another topic here, this is questionable advice. Following NextLevel's and APW's suggestions surely leads to the heinous crime of playing like a girl. |
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APW46
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Not at all.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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APW46
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Don't track the ball when you have hit it, pick up your opponents bat in your vision before he hits the ball, ultimately if he is to make a return, the ball is going to come off his bat. So, where possible, track an incoming ball onto your bat, then don't watch the ball, look straight at your opponents bat then pick the ball up again as he strikes. You can still see the ball, but you are not focused on it as it goes away from you, only when it is coming towards you. The easiest part of the game to apply this is when you are serving, personally I am looking straight at my opponents bat as the ball crosses the net when I serve, giving me ample time to read his intentions.
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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Thanks APW46, that makes sense. I think one drill for anticipation is to have your partner block or hit randomly to two different locations, and you have to watch their position to know which one is coming. Are there other drills that are better?
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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You can more or less do it as part of anything, and it's in fact a good idea to do so.
What's worth reiterating is that your hopefully quality shots need to be instinctive for the shift in focus to work well, and this anticipation needs to be habitual for any sort of strat on top to similarly work well. The good news is that once your vision has properly expanded, pretty much anything that makes sense (eg. hit it to where they aren't) will work about as well. |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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This seems to go part and parcel with the notion of resetting your position immediately after contact. Once you've hit the ball, there isn't much sense in "worrying" about what it does. So many of us "strike a pose" as we watch our ball fly. Instead focus on recovering from your stroke and getting set for the return. Of course, using strokes that either require less of a reset (don't overhit) or that naturally bring you back to a more neutral position (get into proper position before your stroke) helps with that. On most shots you'll have 2-3 tenths of second [edit: actually, that's more like half a second] between your hit and your opponent's hit. Using that time effectively is very valuable. And if you already have bad habits like most of us, it is difficult to do. What you said about watching the opponent's racket make a lot of sense to me. I like that it gives me some other point of focus rather than "not watching the ball." I'll be trying to do that this week and in the future. Edited by wturber - 03/22/2015 at 9:54pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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BRS
Gold Member Joined: 05/08/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
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If you are aiming at targets, as NL suggests, you sort of have to watch the ball to see how close you were to the target and let your aim adjust naturally. I guess if you use soft targets the sound tells you if you got a hit, but it doesn't help you correct a miss.
And if most or all practice is with a robot, there is no way to work on anticipation. But recovery can always be practiced, that's true.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Given that your opponent is going to be trying to place his racket in the path of the ball, it seems to me that the ball will stay close enough to your center of vision that you'll know if it hit or not. As for robot drills, I agree that it can be more difficult given the differences in how the ball is sent to you. That said, I find that when I use the Newgy 2050 that the quick movement of the ball launch head tends to draw my visual attention. I'd also like to mention that one of my favorite drills doesn't involve hitting the balls at all. So, no need to worry about whether they hit or not. I just catch them with my left hand so that I can think about my footwork without having to divert my attention to playing the ball. So I think you could actually use the robot to help you to train without directly watching where the ball lands. I should get back to doing that "just catch" drill again. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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AgentHEX
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> And if most or all practice is with a robot, there is no way to work on anticipation.
Use matches to get better instead of to win. |
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beeray1
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Sounds like common sense. But I feel like this is an ancient Chinese secret kind of thing. I've always been told to just watch the ball watch the ball, and have never understood how people are so good at watching the opponents racket when they have to watch the ball on the way out. For the longest time one of my toughest hurdles was watching my shot land before i did anything. While I don't have that problem as much anymore, I'm mostly moving based on what the safe shot would be, and get burned if they don't play it or put up a bunch of weak sauce. Don't mean to not address the OP, it's high quality. I just need to re-read it a couple times. this is a great thread.
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APW46
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Exactly, and if its coming back, its always going to be off the opponents bat.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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AgentHEX
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> But I feel like this is an ancient Chinese secret kind of thing.
That's what's so amusing about the spectrum of discussion. Massive controversy over exactly where unobtainable CNT H3 is between commercial and Tenergy, and barely a peep over these substantive aspects that actually matter. FWIW, this general topic shouldn't so much be a "system" issue as "conceptual" issue. Not "if this then that", but "create space, moderate tempo" etc. For example, if an opponent steps around to hit BH corner ball with FH it generally makes sense to block down the line. But any particular opponent can be arbitrarily better at footwork/etc to get back in time; and how much better often needs to be tested anyway. This sort of decision making is not conducive to predetermined/static analysis, and problem broadly not reducible to established/static boundaries. |
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ttTurkey
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Good points, and this is where I find that training and confidence comes into play. If I am not training / not confident, then I hope that my shot lands in and I "ball watch" too see if it goes in. If I am training and confident, then I expect my shot to hit the table and I focus on the opponent. Edited by ttTurkey - 03/23/2015 at 7:43pm |
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JacekGM
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For the fun of it, I suggest thinking less, and having good instincts about how to out-manouver the other guy more...
But that may not raise your rating any time soon.
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