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Overkilling |
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mjamja 
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 Topic: OverkillingPosted: 11/14/2015 at 12:42am |
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I have a 1300 USATT player that I am trying to help improve. One of his problems seems to be that he has never seen a ball that he does not think should be killed. He almost never loops underspin, he loop-kills it. When I hit a loop-kill at him he loop-kills it back harder than I hit it. And when he loop-kills its one of those full body kills with arms and legs flying in all directions and the body jerking like he is some kind of puppet on strings. When he is landing them he can look like he is 2200+ and sometimes does briefly when we warm-up. But in games he is usually 5 misses for each spectacular winner often missing when he has gained control of the point and should have a relatively easy finishing opportunity. He does have problems in general with spinning the ball on all his topspin shots and it gets worse when he tries to kill. He never gets to the point of flat kills, but the topspin does seem to be a lot less than for the shot he says he is attempting (ie his loops are more like heavy topspin drives, his drives are more like counters, and his counters are more like very flat blocks). He is playing penhold grip and uses both RPB and TPB techniques depending on the situation. I just can not seem to find the words or the drills to get him to play the kind of spinnier, control topspin that he can land consistently (or at least more than 50%). Do any of you have any suggestions for helping him get more consistent and less kill happy? Mark |
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mts388
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 2:15am |
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Those players are very tough to coach. If they get one in, they think they can do it all of the time even though they continue to miss most of the time. That one hard hit that goes in is reward enough for them. It's very hard to break that mentality.
I once played a guy in a round robin that tried to kill every single ball as hard as he could. He lost every game about 11-3. After the match I told him that he might want to back of on the power. He said that he loves hitting the ball as hard as he can and doesn't care if he loses. You might have a contest to see how many in a row they can hit in using proper technique. |
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heplayslikearobot
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Joined: 11/11/2015 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 6:02am |
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If he's playing for fun, it's fine for him to do whatever he wants and hitting as hard as he can is just fun for him. End of story. However, since he is getting coaching, he is probably trying to get better and advance his game. If this is the case, it will be very hard to break his mentality. He thinks he can them all one, just because he got one or two. He will eventually reach a point where he is limited in his ability and will not improve really at all, and will also be stuck playing at the same level and struggling against a lot of different players. Only then will he see why flat hitting hard gets you almost nowhere. If he doesn't realize that on his own, regardless of your lecturing, he will ignore it. He will be stubborn and continue to overkill the ball until he sees that it's holding him back.
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NextLevel
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Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 6:42am |
+1. If he plays tournaments and wants to get better, that is where it starts. I may have told this story too many times but I remember coming back from a tournament when I was around 1700 after a very bad loss and being stuck at a level for 6 months (after prior rapid improvement) wondering what I did or did not do. Such bad losses make you more receptive to what other people say as well as long periods of stagnation. He may also need a better player to explain to him that what he thinks he sees better players doing (killing the ball) is not what it looks like - it's the result of years of practice looping and timing the ball being translated into setting up their opponent with a serve and then spinning the ball extremely fast and heavy. The illusion of table tennis leads to all kinds of misconceptions about what it takes to play well. You may also need to explain to him that as a player gets better, the quality of opponents gets better and the quality of balls you face get better, so unless he can design a game that gets the opponent to pop the ball up for him very often, he will have limited opportunities to use his flat hit. On the other hand, I have seen players who are very stubborn about this kind of thing. They think that people who don't loop to them and give them opportunities to smash are wimps. Of course, they don't want to work on their ability to attack low heavy backspin. It's just a funny attitude to the game that pretend that those of us working hard on our serves, spins and weaker parts of our game in order to get more opportunities to win points easily are idiots.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mjamja
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 9:56am |
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He is a hard worker in trying to improve his game and has made some very good progress. Now he is stalled and some lower players are starting to catch up to him. Just wish I was a better coach and could do more for him. Unluckily, I am the best he has available locally.
Mark |
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asifgunz
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 10:29am |
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I see these players often in College level as well as rec level.
Once they stack up about 50/60 losses straight over 4 hours (i put in about 43-47 games on average) . They tend to think slightly different afterwards. You will have to keep beating him in game until he becomes less stubborn. many may not like my suggestion but to each his own.
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Boss1703
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 1:55pm |
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long pimples players must love to play him...
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mjamja
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 2:24pm |
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It has gotten to the point that at tournaments when he faces LP's he just gives up even before the match starts. But he is game to learn to play them and asked me to put together a combo blade so he could practice against them. So far we have not had much time to work on it and even when we did I am not very good with LP so the quality of practice he got was not that good. He really wants to get better so badly. I feel awful that I just can't seem to do more for him. Mark
Edited by mjamja - 11/14/2015 at 2:25pm |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 2:30pm |
You can and you have. You have made him aware. What you have to do at some point is get him to watch a high level match and count tur number of loop.drives and flat hits and spinny topspins. He may be surprised. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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APW46
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Joined: 02/02/2009 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3331 |
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 2:51pm |
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Such a common problem. He thinks the only way to win a point is to hit a winner, and if he can hit one, why can't he hit constant winners? The bottom line is that you can explain the percentages to him and he either takes it on board and learns to play TT, or he doesn't and does not progress much further ever. I've been doing this a long time, and honestly some just don't get it ever, they get their kick from hitting that inconsistent screamer, even if the stats mean they lose.
Set up a match for him in a training session against someone his standard and observe and record the statistics of the points won/lost off his attacking strokes,then point out that he's playing a losing ratio,if he fails to understand that, give up,but still take his money and tell him that if all those shots come off, he could be the world champion.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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mjamja
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 4:16pm |
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Thanks for the info guys. At least now I do not feel so bad about how long it is taking to get any results with him. One thing that I did just remember is the video of hitting a TT ball off the top of a plastic soda bottle. If you close your racket and brush the ball you can clip it right off the top of the bottle. If you hit flat (or even just too solid) you take out the bottle with the ball. I am going to set that up for him and see if he can get a feel for spinning the ball more that way. Fortunately I am addicted to Dr. Pepper, so I have lots of plastic bottles for him to destroy in the process. Mark Edited by mjamja - 11/14/2015 at 4:21pm |
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wilkinru
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 4:43pm |
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We had one of these at work. Never fixed it. He indeed felt the need to kill everything.
I would multiball him with lots of half long balls. Just have them come out of the table a little bit. Next I would roll a ball under the net to him and have him loop it over the net. (he hits it at the end of the table as it's dropping off. Then I would give him balls coming out of the side of the table on his forehand but again half long. Just at the spot where a nice controlled shot would likely save skin :) Hopefully one of those exercises would show the need for high spin loops. You know this is a common trend at a club in town here too with the lower levels. They love to smack the crap out of my high speed low speed loops. They typically go right at my head :) |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 4:45pm |
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Mjamja,
The most important things about learning to spin are twofold: 1. The player has to want to learn to spin. 2. The player has to go through a period where they hit slower spin shots to develop their feel and timing of the ball. 3. At a certain level, a player has to accept the need to rally - not critical but helpful. Extremely helpful. After they have developed this feel, they can then play faster and thicker shots as they will have a better feel for the required timing. But they need to accept that period of slow spin as being part of the development process. If they don't, their level of consistency with faster spin shots will always be lower. If you can get him to accept 1 and 2, the number of drills and tools for developing spin touch are virtually infinite. My guess is that your friend probably has very poor serves too. Edited by NextLevel - 11/14/2015 at 4:47pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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zeio
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 4:47pm |
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Don't feel too bad. Even Batman has that tendency, too.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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mjamja
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 5:00pm |
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NextLevel, Serving is the strongest part of his game (at least against the 1200-1500 crowd). Not particularly spinny, but very deceptive side-under/side-top variations from both a Fh pendulum and a standard penhold Bh serve. Mostly fast long serves are the winners for him, but his short serves are sneaky with a full motion that makes you think he is serving long. Of course at the 2000 level the serves would be considered poor. Too high, not good enough depth control especially on double bounce serves, and the fast serves are not really fast enough. And of course not really spinny enough. Mark |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 5:13pm |
Yeah, maybe I should have said that his serve spin is poor - he could have decent control, but that only gets you so far if the spin variation isn't great enough to prevent the serve from being consistently overpowered with spin. He should probably work on getting more spin on his serves. That will open up his mind a bit as long as he keeps the variation.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 5:21pm |
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BTW, don't feel bad about the struggle to get your student to break a bad habit. It's the toughest and consequently most rewarding part of teaching/coaching. The player who beat me 11-0 in the 3rd game of the match that sent me into reflection hasn't come close to beating me since. Sometimes, you have to find that one thing that the person wants and explain to him that he will only get there if he puts in the work to do certain things. I remember telling my coach that I wanted to learn to hit the ball harder and he laughed and told me that he knew no other way to do it consistently than to learn to spin the ball better.
The funny thing is that after learning to spin, I actually made spinning the ball slowly the core of my offensive game. It has its limitations, but it's ceiling is far higher than what your friend needs. What you need to get him to appreciate is that if he turns more of that power in his shots from speed to spin, his level will go up dramatically. That is the tough part of what you are trying to do.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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1dennistt
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 9:07pm |
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A few things come to mind, but you have probably already tried them. Without seeing his strokes, it's hard to guess where to start. Also should note that I'm not a coach, so take these with a grain of salt.
First, video tape both his practice and some of his matches against players his level. Let him watch what he actually looks like, not what he thinks he is doing in his head. Many people have a false idea of what they are actually doing. With his permission you could post the sessions on here for more comments from other coaches. Second, watch his racket angle. If he is hitting with a racket face that is too vertical, try getting him to close the racket angle. Sounds simple, but it might give him something other than smacking the ball to concentrate on. Then if his racket is traveling in the correct path, he might generate more spin. Third, make sure he is Not holding the paddle in a "death grip". Must be relaxed, and this will help his forearm to remain relaxed as he is stroking the ball. An overly tight grip makes most strokes harder to execute. Don't know if any of these will be helpful or if you have already tried them, but they are the first things that come to mind when I picture him playing. If all else fails and he won't change his "hitting" ways, you could always switch him to short pips! Sounds like he might be a natural.
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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)
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JimT
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Posted: 11/14/2015 at 10:56pm |
Mark, that is clearly a mental issue. He probably gets a lot of enjoyment out of executing those kill loops, and perhaps he doesn't think he is in it to win matches. Simply ask him - is he interested in results, or he intends to play the same way for his own enjoyment not caring about winning? If he wants to win - if he is honest with himself - then he has to make changes, he has to decide (himself) that this is necessary. If not... well... then he doesn't need coaching, I guess. |
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mjamja
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Posted: 11/15/2015 at 12:06am |
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JimT, He wants to win. He wants to loop. He just does not recognize what he is doing (mostly in matches, but sometimes even in drills). He will be hitting the ball with this really loud thwack sound with almost vertical blade and just light topspin. When we stop and I ask what shot he was hitting he will tell me he was looping. Or I will say something about stop countering and start looping and he will reply that he is looping. The main difference between his counter and his loop is how long his swing is and how hard he swings. The loop-kill is just a much faster and full-body movement version of his drive. We talk about closing blade angle and swinging more on a 45 deg plane, but after one or maybe 2 shots he is back to vertical blade and almost horizontal swing. His drive is actually really good. He could build a pretty good game around it. But when he starts trying to put more speed on the ball there is just not enough spin to give him any margin for error. Unfortunately, he is almost always trying to hit the really fast winner instead of just controlling the point. In his defense, I think there is a reason he tends to play this way. Early in his playing days he was so inconsistent that if the ball came back twice he lost the point. So he actually won more points going for the inconsistent winner rather than the slow shot because his poor footwork and high error rate with the slow shot meant he usually lost if the ball came back. He missed a lot with those "winners", but at least he won some points where with the control balls he never seemed to win any. Now that he is trying to compete with a higher level of player more of his "winners" are coming back so that winning percentage is going down. He is much more consistent with his drives so he should win more points by just staying in the point longer but he still reacts as if he needs to get in that early winner. And once a few of those "winners" get returned he tries to hit the ball even harder even earlier in the point. He will get into a pushing duel at times and pass up opportunities to attack, but when he does open it is almost always a fast loop-kill type shot instead of just spinning the ball up. Anyway, we now have some more things to discuss and try. if something really clicks for him I will let you guys know. Mark |
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Ringer84
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Posted: 11/15/2015 at 11:16am |
Yeah, I can definitely relate to this. One time I posted a video of me playing BH topspins on the OOAK forum and Nextlevel told me something like, "Your effort to hit the ball as fast as you possibly can and minimize dwell time is what's killing your BH." I replied and told him that I was trying to spin the ball and maximize dwell time. I just didn't know how. Not everyone that hits the ball really hard with very little dwell time/spin is doing so intentionally or just to be stubborn. Some people just don't have the proper technique or the proper feel for how to spin the ball. A video of your student would be really useful. Edited by Ringer84 - 11/15/2015 at 11:24am |
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USATT Rating: 1785
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shay2be
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Posted: 11/15/2015 at 11:55am |
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Oh boy. I've had this problem for the longest time and still continue to have this problem today. My biggest coping mechanism that I have used is to have faith and trust the unpredictability of spin and all of spin's lurking weapons. When I first started, I always wanted to kill everything but over time I developed what I call a rainbow loop or a high topspin. I realized that this rainbow loop was winning more points than my "kill". Even now, when I play players 2200 or 2300 or whatever the higher level may be, I always start with spin because these better players are used to high pace and drives, so I try to open with a spin to avoid setting myself up. Trust the spin!
Just my 2 cents
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jt99sf
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Posted: 11/15/2015 at 12:36pm |
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As a looping exercise for my students, I double the net height to slow/control their strokes.
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heplayslikearobot wrote: