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P-ball and choppers

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Kolev View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/02/2016 at 7:32am
Hi guys. I would like to share my experience playing against a good chopper using the new ball, XSF in this case.My game is based around top spin attack,drives and occasional smashes. With the older ball I rarely had any problem lifting any chop, even the heaviest. The more they were chopping the more I was giving back, which made me a favourite sparring partner for all ambitious defenders in my club - one ex B0,ex B4, a B6 and a C0
So playing this inverted chopper(B6) I noticed that although the new ball creates obviously less spin I lost many balls not being able to lift them. Balls I never missed before. Then I remembered a match a month ago when I lost against a LP defender (C4) which I always beat, mostly because I wasn't able to lift heavy chops. I thought I was in a bad shape..... Then by chance I watched a match between T Boll and Wang Xi and noticed that he was doing the same type of mistakes and looking around I saw that this situation is more common than before. My only idea is that this problem is due to the increased weight of the new ball, or is it ?
BTW, some good attackers couldn't lift my occasional heavy FH chops. I thought they were out shape too, but maybe not.........
Has anyone noticed the same syndrome ?

Edited by Kolev - 04/02/2016 at 10:53pm
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ChichoFicho View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2016 at 10:41am
Choppers are doomed. Just have a look at the arguably best chopper for the past 20 years - Evgueni Chtchetinine. He doesn't use his side spin heavy chops anymore.  

Edited by ChichoFicho - 04/02/2016 at 10:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2016 at 10:50am
recently I watched a club match between two high level players and noticed the players consistently had issues lifting BS push or missing which seemed like easy pushes.  I noticed that the ball literally seemed to roll over the rubber I asked one of the players why they thought the push returns were so inconsistent and his explanation was that the ball was simply larger.  My guess is that it takes more work or effort to generate spin and players have yet to make the adjustment in there stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2016 at 11:08pm
With the new ball I am still not sure should I use more upward or forward motion. Feels like I went ten years back
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 2:20am
Interesting... I have found that people have more trouble lifting my chops (against loops) as well, but this is with the DHS seamed plastic balls, which I find to be quite spinny. I'm surprised to hear you have a similar experience with the XSF balls, which I find to be significantly less spinny for looping, but perhaps not for chopping...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 2:47am
I spent an hour this afternoon practicing against a chopper who is one of my regular practice partners.  I haven't found lifting chops any harder or easier than before.  However, I've found the timing is a lot more tricky.

The poly balls have an irregular bounce and the spin seems to grip the table differently from one time to the next.  That means a ball may jump more forward or it may jump upward and may or may not grip the table with it's spin.  The table may change the spin on the ball or it may not.

The odd bounces affects more than chops.  I was just watching a video of Samsonov versus Gauzy from the round of 32 at the 2016 Kuwait open.  In the first game, both sides had repeated points where they were smashing while the other side lobbed.  What was strange was that for both players, smashing usually lost.  Samsonov is one of the best smashers against lobs in history, and here he is missing several times.  My conclusion is that the p-ball was bouncing funny on the lobs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 5:19am
Could be the bounce , but somehow I relate the problem to the increased weight of the ball not with the spin, because now seems to be easier to smash some chops which I couldn't ménage before. Pushing those heavy chops back is not a problem either. I just can't figure yet why exactly it is more difficult to lift certain really heavy chops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 10:18am
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29627

similar discussion over at O:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 10:59am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

I spent an hour this afternoon practicing against a chopper who is one of my regular practice partners.  I haven't found lifting chops any harder or easier than before.  However, I've found the timing is a lot more tricky.

+1

I've always done well against pips players around my level, but my first few months of league play with XSF were tough due to two issues.  First, I was used to being able to judge the level of spin on the ball coming at me based on the stroke I had just played - the switch to poly threw off all my built-up experience about spin reversal.  I had to concentrate to shrug off the years of automatic pilot.  And second, the flight of the ball was different enough to mess up my timing, and I wiffed a lot of loops because the ball just didn't come to me as I was used to - playing over the top of a dipping ball was the most common issue for me. 

It just took time to adjust, and I had to improve my forward-backward movement a bit.

A third (more controversial) possibility is rubber slip.  I was using older tensors for some of the season and I had quite a bit of ball slip on fine contacts with 40+ balls, which I really need when slow-looping to open up against a LP player.  I don't have this issue now, but I can't be sure if that's because I'm hitting the ball better (I'm more used to how the ball behaves now) or if I'm using more forgiving equipment now (softer, gripper topsheets).  This is bound to be a very personal thing though, so I'm sure YMMV.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 1:06pm
The really good chopper who I loop practise with, loves the XSF ball and hates the Butterfly G40+ ball...

The XSF ball floats more and the G40+ bullet is more direct and faster, so suits attackers more...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

Could be the bounce , but somehow I relate the problem to the increased weight of the ball  
I thought the new p-balls weighed the same as the old celluloid balls?

Initially, ITTF allowed the manufacturers to make slightly heavier balls because of problems with breakage.  However, that tolerance for greater weight went away as of 1/31/16, so I thought all the balls weighed the same as of last Fall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 4:16pm
I didn't know this and of course I haven't measured the weight. It is what I feel while looping. I'm pretty sure I'll get used to it, but it good to know that it isn't just me......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42andbackpains Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 9:16pm
Bigger ball and same racket head size will always equal to more effort in looping.  While for choppers, they now have a bit of extra time to receive the ball since the ball is not coming in so fast to them, therefore they can execute a better chop. So the bigger ball is more of a plus to choppers in my opinion.... But what do i know, i suck at Table Tennis LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2016 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Bigger ball and same racket head size will always equal to more effort in looping.  While for choppers, they now have a bit of extra time to receive the ball since the ball is not coming in so fast to them, therefore they can execute a better chop. So the bigger ball is more of a plus to choppers in my opinion.... But what do i know, i suck at Table Tennis LOL


The ball is harder and the pips cant bite the ball and many times the ball slide ramdomly in the pips now i loop with less spin and the choppers are making more mistakes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bogeyhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2016 at 12:18am
Pretty much the same from my experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PointEngineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2016 at 5:47am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

Choppers are doomed. Just have a look at the arguably best chopper for the past 20 years - Evgueni Chtchetinine. He doesn't use his side spin heavy chops anymore.  

Would be interesting to know why.  Sidespin seems to me to be the one that is less affected by the poly ball change - meaning it swerves a similar amount and retains a similar amount after table bounce. Top spin is the one that I witness as most affected.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kolev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2016 at 7:00pm
Can't agree more.....I was embarrassed to confess such an absurd observation, but that's the way I feel about it - less topspin but more and easier to create sidespin. I even discussed it with a friend last night, who had to draw a diagram to explain it to me , but although I am very open minded I am not ready yet for everything what the new ball has to offer.......BTW yesterday I won against a high ranked woman just by emphasising on "heavy" chops which she had a seriuos problem to lift. Then she came and asked me what was I playing with-it was my 4 years old T64
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PointEngineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2016 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

Can't agree more.....I was embarrassed to confess such an absurd observation, but that's the way I feel about it - less topspin but more and easier to create sidespin. I even discussed it with a friend last night, who had to draw a diagram to explain it to me , but although I am very open minded I am not ready yet for everything what the new ball has to offer.......BTW yesterday I won against a high ranked woman just by emphasising on "heavy" chops which she had a seriuos problem to lift. Then she came and asked me what was I playing with-it was my 4 years old T64

Don't be embarrassed, it all helps to build up a picture of what might be going on, even if an observation may end up with too strong a conclusion.

My theory would be, that contrary to while many are commenting that the poly ball (at least XSF and NP) produce less spin off the rubber, it could in fact be that they actually have a higher grip (at least after powder has gone and while not covered with any condensation), which implies the rubber would impart similar and perhaps more spin to the ball.  However the interaction of the spinning ball with the air and the table could then remove some spin.  Considering the table interaction, a sidespin component does not have a high friction force on the table and hence has only a very small reduction, while heavy topspin tends to hit the table with a high impact and in the direction of travel and thus the friction force from the table should typically also be high (in simplified terms, friction on the table reduces topspin if the pre-impact topspin is effectively larger than the velocity, and increases topspin if the velocity is less than the pre-impact topspin).  Any the observed net effect could then vary with different spin/velocity/directions combinations that could easily lead to different and valid observations, that lack the complete description of the shot type and lead to contradictory views. Serves hit the table twice, giving twice the possible reduction (especially for backspin), and even more so "power" backspin serves (more than very slow eg 'ghost' backspin serves) hit the table with a high impact and would be impacted even more etc.  It could be interesting to hear precisely which types of shot players see the spin affected more.

It is worth adding, that it feels to me like the original seamed balls (eg Nittaku SHA) grip the table less than XSF & NP for example and thus spin seems not so hugely different than celluloid (of course the bounce is so damn odd and inconsistent with those that hardly anyone has the patience to play with them for long).

This is all just my best theory at the moment based on no measured data I expect I will likely change my opinion in the future.Big smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/05/2016 at 8:34pm
Kolev, how old was the ball?
I was practicing, using the XSF, with a player whose game is slow topspin mixed with chop. I was having problems all evening. Then about the 8th set, I changed the ball to a brand new one and bingo! no more problems out of the ordinary.
A poster did mention once that the XSF should be changed regularly as they do get greasy and dirty the longer you play. That's what gave me the idea to change.
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