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which hardbat rubber.... |
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tuco 
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 Topic: which hardbat rubber....Posted: 05/04/2016 at 12:52pm |
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of all the legal hardbat rubbers, which one is the easiest to produce spin?
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The Dark Side is:
"Quicker, easier, more seductive" - Yoda |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 12:58pm |
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Probably one of the Yasaka rubbers. Next might be Butterfly Orthodox. But none of them has a huge spin advantage. That's part of the point of the approval process. They will feel substantially different in how they play though. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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tuco
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 1:10pm |
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thanks, Jay. Looks like the Yasaka A-1-2 comes in 2 versions : large and small pips. (http://iruiru.com/goods_page.php?ct=A&mk=C&gd=AC030)
are both versions hardbat approved? I don't suppose I can have large pips on one side and small pips on another?
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cole_ely
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 2:12pm |
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I think a legal hardbat has to have the same surface on both sides, but WTurber can clear this up.
BTW classique, a rubber originally designed by WTurber for hardbat, has been approved by the hardbat committee and is added to the list. I don't think it's the spinniest approved rubber though.
Edited by cole_ely - 05/04/2016 at 2:13pm |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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IanMcg
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 3:16pm |
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Both should be approved. I believe that both sides do have to be the same to be legal in a hardbat event, but for regular ITTF/USATT play I think you can have different rubbers on both sides.
Butterfly Orthodox is pretty spinney, and I've heard that YASAKA Cobalt (and variations) are also pretty spinney. |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 3:28pm |
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I believe both are hardbat approved. Here's a link to the official list (which apparently may be slightly out of date.) As for large and small pips, the answer is, "No." Fundamental to the notion of classic hardbat is not having a combination racket. We used to have a two-color waiver allowing hardbats as defined by the USATT Hardbat Committee (now Classic Table Tennis Committee) to be used in USATT events without complying with the two-color rule. It was justified largely on the notion that nobody should care given that the hardbat rules required the same exact rubber on both sides. The two-color rule has no purpose if both sides are the same rubber. In fact, it is perfectly OK to have both sides the same color in hardbat events precisely because the same rubber is required on both sides. Cole just mentioned Classique. I understood that Classique was being tested, but did not know that it had been approved. I'd like to clarify my involvement with this rubber. Yes, I initiated the project and was involved in the design of Classique and a sister product, Golden Era. The idea was to produce a rubber that met ITTF requirements but still played very much like classic Leyland rubber and to also produce a rubber that threw out ITTF pip size and spacing requirements and would mimic classic Leyland rubber very closely. The rubbers never reached a level of development that met my goals. I was never happy with what I considered to be an overly intrusive label size (smaller is better for hardbat), and the fellow I was working with was not putting much effort into the Golden Era rubber which was actually more important to me. There were also some other issues. In the end, I dropped my participation in the development. My understanding is that Classique has gone through some changes in rubber formulation since my involvement. So I don't really know much about how it plays right now. But if it has been approved, then it probably plays at least OK and maybe is quite good. I just don't know. I'll have to order a few sheets from Cole and try it out.
Edited by wturber - 05/04/2016 at 3:38pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 3:36pm |
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BTW, remember that the blade must be all wood. Your location sez "Valley of the Sun" - is that the Phoenix area or a different Valley of the Sun?
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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berndt_mann
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Posted: 05/04/2016 at 3:52pm |
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Your informative post, Jay, makes much of what I was going to write in a post largely unnecessary. As far as the OP's question about which permissible hard rubbers most easily produce spin, I would suggest Yasaka Cobalt and Yasaka Cobalt Alpha. For hard rubbers, they are rather heavy, but both are I believe cloth backed, which makes them easier to affix to a blade and in my subjective opinion more amenable to producing spin than hard rubbers which don't have a cloth backing.
Valor Premier hard rubber, which comes both with and without a cloth backing and can fit oversize vintage and modern blades made for hard rubber play, may also be a good permissible spin producing hard rubber. I can't say so personally, as I've never played with Valor Premier. Let us hope, Jay and fellow hard rubber lovers, that the newly approved Classique plays as you write "at least OK" and better yet in a manner that would make the dwindling number of us Leyland users say "in a few dozen years once my Leyland craps out, I gotta try some of this stuff". |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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frogger
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Posted: 05/05/2016 at 5:01pm |
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I have used BTY OX and Yasaka A-1-2 for years on different blades. I have found the BTY OX has a bit softer pip that produced a tic more spin than A-1-2. Actually I believe the blade with the most dwell time will produce the better spin but even this is subjective to some. Valor is very good but expensive. Valor is good for covering very large headed blades. 
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Wood Paddle
Red side Black side. |
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gnopgnipster
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Posted: 05/05/2016 at 8:16pm |
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About the Classique... Jay how come you did not get a sheet for testing? Under the old rules passed by my administration, all members of the Hardbat Committee were supposed to get a sheet, test it, and then vote on it.
CHEERS!
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 05/05/2016 at 9:04pm |
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Sorry to misrepresent the situation. I figured it would come up and you were in the thread so... They did mess with some alternate versions but I bet you'll find this plays like you expect. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 05/05/2016 at 9:05pm |
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They only made a handful of those lp kind and that years ago. They're actually selling well in China as this formulation and there's no plans to change.
So sorry to hijack |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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gnopgnipster
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 9:14am |
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On a personal note Valor Premier might be one of the most expensive on the list but you get what you pay for. It is made in England to exacting quality control standards and you will never hear that the rubber was reformulated, or that it doesn't play like it used to, or that it has a long pips and a short pips version. The rubber is a best selling product which means I sell them quickly allowing me to make fresh batches of the rubber often, unlike competitors which sit on shelfs around the globe indefinitely. When is the last time you heard that Butterfly Orthodox or Yasaka won a major Hardbat Championship in the USA? Oh well... CHEERS!
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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kolevtt
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 11:40am |
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Anyone tested Spinlord Waran OX for hardbat?
These pips have outstanding performance in spin and good speed too. |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 4:42pm |
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Which would probably be two good reasons why the USATT Classic Table Tennis Committee probably wouldn't approve them. But that might be a good choice for areas where the hardbat rubber isn't as limited and/or for hardbat players who use hardbat when playing in non-hardbat events.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 4:46pm |
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No problem. I didn't take your post as a misrepresentation. But I figured it could easily lead to assumptions that would no be correct. So I figured this would be a good place to clarify things.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 5:14pm |
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I'm not aware from any official source that it has actually been approved yet. It could be that distributing the rubber to committee members is the next step that Scott intends to take assuming the rubber passes the objective testing phase. I know that Scott has been very busy with a number of things and simply may not have reached that point yet. But frankly, if I do receive a sheet for testing I'll recuse myself from input given that I had an interest and involvement in the rubber in the past.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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berndt_mann
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 6:43pm |
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A good point. If you are one of the few, the proud, the brave who uses a hardbat when playing in sponge events it might be advisable to use the spinniest, speediest OX short pips you can get a hold of. In sponge events, you may use two different rubbers on your hardbat (red and black) and you may also use a composite blade.
Edited by berndt_mann - 05/06/2016 at 6:43pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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cole_ely
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Posted: 05/06/2016 at 10:21pm |
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It's done. Scott called me. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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gnopgnipster
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Posted: 05/07/2016 at 9:11am |
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Is Scott Gordon in charge of approving the new hardbat rubbers by himself? Without the other members of the committee testing them also? Sounds like there is room for corruption in such a system if in fact that is what the system has become.
Jay you said you would recuse yourself, but you also said the Classique rubber was different from when you were involved with it. Sounds to me like the more reason to want to test it, unless of course you had a financial interest in the rubber in which case recusing yourself would be correct. Curiously though was Scott also involved like you in the development of the rubber?
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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gnopgnipster
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Posted: 05/07/2016 at 9:20am |
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Cole aren't you jumping the gun a little by posting this on your website? *CLASSIQUE IS NOW ON THE OFFICIAL USATT HARDBAT LIST OF APPROVED RUBBERS* I just checked and the rubber was not listed. Also doesn't the USATT Board of directors have to approve the rubber? While I realize that they are usually a rubber stamp, they still have to approve it before it becomes official...
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/07/2016 at 12:39pm |
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The notion that anyone should be concerned about corruption with Scott testing hardbat rubber is a ridiculous flight of fantasy. With the single exception of Valor rubber, which was the single rubber approved under your chairmanship of the committee, the testing of hardbat rubbers and subsequent recommendation for approval or not was done by Scott Gordon and Al Papp and a vote by the committee. I think that's the same process by which Magic Pips was dropped when the formulation was changed. It's the process that gave us our current list (excepting Valor) which you seem to agree offers rubbers with very little variation in degree of spin. It seems like the method has been quite successful in meeting its goals. Further, Scott has put a huge amount of personal time and effort into the advocacy of hardbat and the resurrection/preservation of the classic game. Like me, I'm sure he is at a substantial net financial loss from his involvement and advocacy of hardbat and table tennis. Neither his nor my interests have ever been financial in this area. When I discussed developing this rubber with my wife, I made it clear that breaking even on sales vs. development costs would be unlikely. There is nothing curious about Scott's non-existent involvement in the development of Classique. What is curious is why you would even ask the question to begin with. Given what I posted earlier about my involvement, do you really think I'd hide information about anybody else on the committee or within USATT who was financially involved? Especially the current committee chair and someone with high hardbat visibility like Scott? Really? I did specifically bring up the issue of past formulation changes with Scott when I found out that Classique had been submitted for testing. My understanding is that the formulation issue was discussed with Cole (who, I believe, imports, but is not involved in the making of the rubber.) Cole's input was that the formulation has been stabile and is expected to remain so. Cole has an excellent reputation for integrity and fair dealings through colestt.com and I have no doubt that he would be among the first to notice a change and to let someone on the Classic Table Tennis Committee know. As for Cole's reporting of the rubber being approved, that is probably largely a matter of semantics and different understandings about what "approved" meant. It is not technically approved until the committee votes on it. Scott anticipated that the vote would occur shortly after his discussion with Cole, and that the committee in all likelihood would approve the rubber. But the vote hasn't happened yet due to interfering events in Scott's personal life. Based on Cole's conversation with Scott, it is understandable that Cole came away understanding that the rubber had been approved even though technically that hasn't quite yet happened but probably will shortly. Edited by wturber - 05/07/2016 at 12:41pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/07/2016 at 12:43pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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Posted: 05/07/2016 at 12:48pm |
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When I told Scott that I thought maybe you jumped the gun a bit, he said that he didn't think so and that he had given you every reason to believe that approval was imminent. None of this is any big deal. It's just a timing problem because things haven't happened as soon as anticipated.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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gnopgnipster
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Posted: 05/07/2016 at 2:46pm |
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Edited by gnopgnipster - 05/07/2016 at 2:48pm |
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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tuco wrote: