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Service Strategy vs Banana Flip |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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Posted: 05/20/2016 at 2:23pm |
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The banana flip service return is being used a lot more recently, especially by junior players. I was wondering if there were any service strategies (type of spin, location, types of 3rd ball, etc) that tend to be more effective against these banana flip returns. No one at my club uses the banana flip. But when I go to tournaments I just get destroyed when I face someone who uses it. I get really strong attacking flips back even on what I think are very good serves. I do not read where the flip is going well and I always seem late getting my racket into position even when the ball is hit close to me. Thanks for any insights you could give me. Mark
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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There are lots of ways to deal with this and probably all are important, but if you try to work on all of them at the same time you will not make progress. That is kind of a zen idea. You will become a mess. You have to be systematic.
So I will suggest only two. Other people will suggest other things too, probably good ideas, but again, you can't work on them all at once. So pick a couple out of the suggestions you get. My two are: 1. The opponent has to respect the possibility they will get a very deep serve. This one is easiest to learn. It is easiest to learn to execute this from one or the other variations of the "hook" or "tomahawk" motion that you often see done by people like Liu Shiwen or Stefan Fegerl or Par Gerell, or sometimes Ovtcharov. Deep to the BH corner or deep to the body. 2. This one is harder past a certain age because of athleticism required but you really need to get into the unconscious habit of getting back to ready position after your serve. One thing that makes it a little easier is to keep in mind that very few right handed people at a level near to you will hit banana flicks to your deep forehand so you don't have to cover the whole table. (If they can do that reliably, without giving you lots of points in unforced errors, they are probably good enough that you are not going to win anyway). If you drop your hands after the serve you are hosed. At first it will require conscious attention but it needs to become unconscious. I mention this as a way to cope with the return until you develop some serves that can reduce it. |
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Nasche
Super Member Joined: 04/15/2016 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 155 |
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Great advice, sometimes we lose points just because we forget to get back into ready position at the proper distance from the table, not just against banana flip, but sometimes after your own banana flip you just forget to take a step back in time.
Edited by Nasche - 05/20/2016 at 2:57pm |
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42andbackpains
Silver Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 623 |
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I have noticed 2000 rated plus players serve short and semi fast underspin serves. This prevents alot of banana flip returns. And the speed of your serve determines how far they will push to so that you can do a opening attack. Slow underspin serves gives the opponent time to return short or a potential banana flips. Throw in a long fast serve once in a while to keep the opponent on there toes. 2 cents added
Edited by 42andbackpains - 05/20/2016 at 2:57pm |
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce BH Butterfly T05 Red USATT rating keeps going down |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Sidespin away from the returner's backhand - tomahawk, backhand or reverse serves to the short forehand from the forehand side or middle of the table. It improves your ability to cover wide flicks to the forehand as well.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I have a hard time believing no one at your club does this return. Maybe you can say no one does it effectively....or maybe no one does it with tenergy. I could have sworn I did a drill with you this very week ...or was it this weak?
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Like you, I'm starting to see more banana flips. For me the most important thing is to quickly get into the ready position. As soon as I serve short to a banana flipper I look at their paddle to determine where it is going and using almost no backswing and counter loop it. If I execute that shot they have a very difficult time getting back in position to return it.
It's too bad you don't have any capable players in your club willing to drill with you. Maybe you can teach one of your weaker players how to banana flip and work with him. Edited by mts388 - 05/20/2016 at 4:01pm |
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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Plan A: Either improve the serve that they are banana-flipping or do different serves.
Why is it that you think these are very good serves where you are getting the difficult banana-flip return? Obviously it seems that these players are not fooled in the least by the serve you're giving them. You need to change your serve to be more deceptive, i.e. keep them guessing as to what type of spin is on the ball, and thus they give a more passive response. Otherwise, stop using the serve and do other types of serves. Mixing up your serves to be short/long or to different placements on the table is a good thing, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem that your opponent is having no trouble seeing the spin on some of your serves and is aggressively attacking them as a result. I would suggest experimenting with some new service motions where you can more effectively disguise underspin vs no-spin, or even better you can completely fool them with a topspin serve that looks like underspin. This should result in the opponent making mistakes with their banana-flips by hitting them long off the table, and when you do give them the underspin variation they will hesitate and either return with a weaker banana-flip return that pops up and can be attacked, or they resort to giving a push return. Also, the problem might be that your serve placement is too predictable, which makes it easier for them to know where they need to move to execute the banana-flip. This is where have better disguise on your serve to go backhand vs middle vs forehand might help to diffuse getting the banana-flip return. Plan B: Improve your response to banana-flip returns. This may be more difficult to accomplish if you don't have a practice partner to work with that can execute a banana-flip return. The fact is that a banana-flip return that is not well placed or has "weaker" spin is very easily counter-attacked. It's a bit like receiving a heavy topspin serve, which can be attacked aggressively with a counter-drive or loop if you can see the spin properly. But it seems your biggest problem here is that you are just not used to such a short, heavy topspin ball coming at you. You need to see it and encounter it in practice to get used to it.
Edited by geardaddy - 05/20/2016 at 4:04pm |
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notfound123
Gold Member Joined: 01/18/2008 Location: MD, USA Status: Offline Points: 1025 |
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In short:
If someone banana flips you - banana flip them back. Continue banana flipping until they lose the point. Repeat. On a more serious note, develop stronger serves and always vary your spin. If someone gets used to your say heavy underspin serves, stop serving it and immediately mix things up. |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2895 |
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VanJr, I thought what you were doing was a more convention flip, although certainly more brushed and spiny than normal. It did not seem to have the paddle tip down vertical (or even past vertical) nor the side of the ball contact that I associate with a banana flick. Maybe I just was not paying close enough attention to what you were doing. Mark |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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I use the banana flip on the backhand for probably 98% of all my current serve receives, the reason being that I am obsessed with it! And learning all the nuances and abilities that come with the shot.
That being the case, everyone I play KNOWS that regardless of the serve, I will be doing a backhand flip. So they try everything they can to limit my chances, so far nothing has worked! What they end up trying to do, which does increase the difficulty, is serving very short to the forehand side and at a heavy angle. Usually serving from their right side of the table to the extreme left (my right side). But in doing so, that opens up a big angle for me to use -- especially if I were to use the forehand flick. Another tactic they try is to do a very fast serve way out to my forehand side. Another serve they try is to do as heavy a backspin serve as they can muster, trying to keep it short on the table. I've been drilling with a machine for quite some time, so even these are fairly easy to flip back unless you've got very tiny arms None of them really seem to prevent the flip, though they do make it harder to perform. Since taking on this strategy, I'd say the majority of my rallies are 2 or 3 points long at most... my flip is often a kill at that.
Edited by obesechopper - 05/20/2016 at 6:40pm |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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Serve with pips.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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jfolsen
Gold Member Joined: 03/15/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1295 |
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If you really serve short, low and not to the middle of their backhand, they may hit it, but it won't be that hard. (world class players excluded)
Once you get over the surprise of the banana flip, lots of players around here just jam it back fast. In order to do the banana you have to do a fair bit of wrist contortion and are usually leaning in over the table. Any sort of quick return punishes the flipper. jfolsen |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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The BF can be done pretty hard from anywhere on the table, if you're not standing in a bucket of cement! Watch how Fan handles this one wide to his forehand This sequence here is generally the most common I receive (serve -- flick -- opponent hits backhand shot to my bh corner). I think the real danger/downside of the flick is not in orchestrating its prevention... but in handling what comes after. Are you a fast, offensive player? If the other player is pretty decent, then they can get right into the rally with either a short drive/top spin or an angled block off to one side. So the flipper has to be ready to attack again after initiating the offense. If your blocking/offense isn't as good as the other person's... then the flick may not be the proper shot to play most of the time. Unless you can figure out ways to combat their offensive sides. For me, to counter that, what I do is see which side my opponent is weakest on and then focus my shots to that spot overall.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Fortunately very few of us are trying to beat FZD.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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In order to try to beat FZD You gotta be a player on the CNT. (Too sweet to resist) Edited by berndt_mann - 05/20/2016 at 9:49pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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There are three strategies I use together:
1. Serve reverse sidespin to the short forehand from the forehand side. The starting position is critical as the easiest return is to come back to your forehand and you can then play a loop. You can serve it from the backhand side as well if you have advanced recovery and footwork technique but I don't. 2. Serve heavy backspin with no-spin variations. The heavy backspin will make sure that whatever they do to flick the ball will give you sufficient topspin to attack the shot and even kill it. 3. Serve fast and deep to keep them honest.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Gee Berndt, your keen razor-sharp insight really got me there. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Just do a simple counter against these flips, and the game will proceed to the topspin rally phase. Then it is just a battle of fundamentals.
Counterlooping is really a low percentage shot but feel free to try it. Extremely heavy underspin serves to the short FH, coupled by deep serves to the BH corner (could be sidespin of both types mixed with topspin or even underspin) tends to jam them up pretty nicely. I once driven a banana flipper crazy using these serves, that he started to resort to pushing the short FH serves which I then mixed in with some no spin balls to get easy 3rd ball kills. To me, I like the FH receive a lot better, as there's a lot more variation that I can get from a few movements |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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My two cents worth:
1) Most bananas are helped by side spin in a particular direction. I usually find that if someone seems to find the BF too easy for one type of serve, I reverse the direction of side spin. 2) For all flips, banana or otherwise, the power of the flip really depends upon a precise reading of the top/bottom spin. So when I see someone flipping underspin serves too easily, I change to no spin (side spin) serves, or vice versa. 3) Generally speaking, it's harder to make aggressive (fast) flips (banana or otherwise) against no spin serves than under/top spin serves, That's because players can use the under or top spin to help the power of their attack. Of course, this assumes your serves are low to the net. 4) If the banana isn't too aggressive/fast, then you just need to be alert and not panic. It's quite returnable.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2205
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Look at the 1-3 minute mark how Ma Long gets back so quickly to prepare for the banana flick after he serves. He trains that move really hard. Even though none of us are professional players, we probably need to train that movement also.
Edit. He steps back even more (and faster) after he hits the banana flick himself because he knows he is not going to get a short short after that. |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Keen razor-sharp insight will tend to do that to a guy. Every time I read one of Tassie52's posts, or yours for that matter, the hairs on my forearms stand straight up. The same thing happens when I read one of my posts. Edited by berndt_mann - 05/23/2016 at 6:19pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I just now noticed that you were attempting to write a little rhyme. I am not sure how one would classify the rhythm, but iambic pentameter it ain't.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Oh hell no Baal. You gotta remember I'm a conservatory trained musician and tend to think more in terms of musical rhythms rather than poetic meters even when writing the doggerel I do so well. Iambic pentameter, as we all know, goes da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM. In order to try to beat FZD You gotta be a player on the CNT. goes da Dada da da da da DA DA DA da Dada da da dada da da DA DA DA. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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And now, back to banana flipping. On the old USATT website, there was a picture of yours truly, taken I don't know where or when, stroking a rpb backhand with a HB, racket head pointed straight down, which may have been one of the world's first banana flips, certainly the first ever executed with a hardbat. I cannot recall whether it was made against a serve, or whether or not it was a good return. Definitely a banana flip though.
Back then, when this picture was taken, there was no name for a banana flip. But somebody must have gotten the word around to international level players somehow, as now the banana flip is an indispensible part of just about every world class player's repertoire. To paraphrase Cole Ely, I am glad to have been of assistance, as the banana flip has now become almost as ubiquitous for shakehanders and penholders at the international level as the rpb has become for penholders. Since abbreviations are quite common here, couldn't we just call the banana fliip the bf? Edited by berndt_mann - 05/23/2016 at 9:26pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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