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BLADES NEED TIME TO BRAKE IN ?
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Matt Pimple View Drop Down
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Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Natural aging and accelerated aging are two different things.

4.3 True acceleration of ageing
Heat treatment is sometimes regarded as an
accelerated ageing, but our results clearly suggest
that the effects of heat treatment are qualitatively
different from those of ageing. Such a difference
might be due to the effects of moisture: ageing
proceeds at moderate relative humidity
(30~80%RH) whereas the heat treatment is
usually conducted in the absence of moisture
(0%RH) or in saturated water vapour (100%RH).
Thus, the effects of moisture should be clarified
to realize a true acceleration of ageing.


Again, show me the data! It only says here that the results are "qualitatively" different. Which results and how are they different? And what would that mean for a TT blade?
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zeio View Drop Down
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You can see for yourself in my earlier post.  Do you really expect me to do it all for you?
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Matt Pimple View Drop Down
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Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">You can see for yourself in my earlier post.  Do you really expect me to do it all for you?</span>

I didn't see the link to the paper in your earlier post. I just read the paper and there seems to be a difference between aged and new wood at least for this particular kind of wood. One would have to expand on this and test a whole bunch of other wood types in particular those used to build blades. So this may contribute to what players experience as "better feel". However, the part on the heat treatment was not supported by any data and it was just the author's "perspective".
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Maybe some one can setup a vote to see how many people can see the change in performance of the blade over time, and how many people don't. I think the blade characteristic does change, when it is brand new, but gradually it stay the same over time.
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You have to look harder.  It's under 3.2 Comparison between ageing and chemical treatments.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Matt Pimple View Drop Down
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Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

You have to look harder.  It's under 3.2 Comparison between ageing and
chemical treatments.

Yes, in that chapter they describe how the structure of the wood changes upon ageing and how that would affect the vibrational properties. But then the author goes on to say that heat treatment has a similar effect in that the tan-delta-m is reduced.
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zeio View Drop Down
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Yet at the same time, tandL is increased for the heat-treated sample as opposed to the naturally aged sample.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

I think I'd like to see something a bit more substantial than subjective self-reported anecdata before I will accept the theory of blades (and rubbers) 'breaking in' over few days/hours. 

Basically, until you control for the human adjusting to the new equipment, this discussion is way too similar to the widely held belief among audiophiles that new speaker/component cables must be broken in. 

You are free to believe in whatever, of course, invisible pink unicorns and all Wink

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...

Sure, it is a fine basis for launching further investigation.  But history has shown that anecdotal evidence is unreliable.  That's why you do the further investigation.  Without the further investigation it is prudent to be skeptical. That said, I wouldn't put this quite into the unicorn category just yet. 
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Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...

Sure, it is a fine basis for launching further investigation.  But history has shown that anecdotal evidence is unreliable.  That's why you do the further investigation.  Without the further investigation it is prudent to be skeptical. That said, I wouldn't put this quite into the unicorn category just yet. 

I just must disagree. History may have shown that sometimes, or often, anecdotal evidence is unreliable, but that is different from saying that anecdotal evidence is unreliable, where it is implied that it is always unreliable, and that would be a false statement. 
At this point we simply do not know yet, but we have reports from people that blades "play better" when aged, or when "broken in". Of course some people feel that it is prudent to be skeptical, but it is hopefully allowable for others to speculate why things observed in our sport might be happening. We do it a lot...  I personally would not put this topic in the "unicorn category" as of now, maybe because I like material science and the potential it has to improve human lives.
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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pgpg View Drop Down
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Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

I think I'd like to see something a bit more substantial than subjective self-reported anecdata before I will accept the theory of blades (and rubbers) 'breaking in' over few days/hours. 

Basically, until you control for the human adjusting to the new equipment, this discussion is way too similar to the widely held belief among audiophiles that new speaker/component cables must be broken in. 

You are free to believe in whatever, of course, invisible pink unicorns and all Wink

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...

Let's re-read the first post in the thread, shall we? 

"Hello i know that when you  play with new rubber 
the rubber give the maximum after a few hours of play."

That's where. And sure - things might happen. Most likely small things - and in order to detect small effects, you probably should make sure that your measuring device is somewhat more accurate than human 'feeling'. 

I guess I've graduated from high horse to a giraffe by now, but oh well.
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Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...

Sure, it is a fine basis for launching further investigation.  But history has shown that anecdotal evidence is unreliable.  That's why you do the further investigation.  Without the further investigation it is prudent to be skeptical. That said, I wouldn't put this quite into the unicorn category just yet. 

I just must disagree. History may have shown that sometimes, or often, anecdotal evidence is unreliable, but that is different from saying that anecdotal evidence is unreliable, where it is implied that it is always unreliable, and that would be a false statement. 

Unreliable means simply that it cannot be relied upon, that the reports are suspect or questionable. That is all.  If anecdotal evidence were reliable, there would be no need to do further testing to confirm it.  
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Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

I think I'd like to see something a bit more substantial than subjective self-reported anecdata before I will accept the theory of blades (and rubbers) 'breaking in' over few days/hours. 

Basically, until you control for the human adjusting to the new equipment, this discussion is way too similar to the widely held belief among audiophiles that new speaker/component cables must be broken in. 

You are free to believe in whatever, of course, invisible pink unicorns and all Wink

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...

Let's re-read the first post in the thread, shall we? 

"Hello i know that when you  play with new rubber 
the rubber give the maximum after a few hours of play."

That's where. And sure - things might happen. Most likely small things - and in order to detect small effects, you probably should make sure that your measuring device is somewhat more accurate than human 'feeling'. 

I guess I've graduated from high horse to a giraffe by now, but oh well.
Well, sure, but that was a side note about rubbers, which is still a different story, it has to do with glue settling. I guess I would not like to see this present topic overly slighted, although you made your points, and I should not argue with that. 
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Where did you get these "(a)few days/hours" from? A strike of hyperbolic unicorn? 
History has seen it more than once when "anecdotal evidence" was the basis of research that subsequently led to breakthrough discoveries. 
There are fibers of wood, there are layers of glue, when this stuff vibrates things may happen. Don't ride the high horse...

Sure, it is a fine basis for launching further investigation.  But history has shown that anecdotal evidence is unreliable.  That's why you do the further investigation.  Without the further investigation it is prudent to be skeptical. That said, I wouldn't put this quite into the unicorn category just yet. 

I just must disagree. History may have shown that sometimes, or often, anecdotal evidence is unreliable, but that is different from saying that anecdotal evidence is unreliable, where it is implied that it is always unreliable, and that would be a false statement. 

Unreliable means simply that it cannot be relied upon, that the reports are suspect or questionable. That is all.  If anecdotal evidence were reliable, there would be no need to do further testing to confirm it.  
Splendid semantics, but the point is lost in the smoke. Are you a lawyer?
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

For musical instruments, aging of wood helps a ton.


Abstract
  Wood has been widely used for the soundboard of traditional musical instruments such as violin. Many artisans suggest that long-term ageing is effective to improve the quality of wooden soundboards, but few studies have so far been made on the vibrational properties of aged wood. In this paper, vibrational properties of aged akamatsu wood (ca.300 years old) are compared to those of recently-cut “new” wood. The results are analyzed by using a viscoelastic cell wall model to discuss the structural changes in the wood cell wall due to the ageing. 

4 Conclusions
  Vibrational properties of aged wood (ca.300 years has past after cutting) are compared to those of recently-cut wood. The aged wood showed greater stiffness (EL’, GLR’), higher sound velocity (VL) and lower damping (tand L) than the new wood. In addition, the ratio of Young’s modulus and shear modulus (EL’/GLR’) of the aged wood was significantly greater than that of new wood. All those changes suggested that the ageing is a fascinating “treatment” to improve the acoustic quality of wooden soundboard.
Ahaa... I somehow missed this important contribution by zeio, my bad... Any other published evidence of the importance of wood aging, anyone?
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

For musical instruments, aging of wood helps a ton.


Abstract
  Wood has been widely used for the soundboard of traditional musical instruments such as violin. Many artisans suggest that long-term ageing is effective to improve the quality of wooden soundboards, but few studies have so far been made on the vibrational properties of aged wood. In this paper, vibrational properties of aged akamatsu wood (ca.300 years old) are compared to those of recently-cut “new” wood. The results are analyzed by using a viscoelastic cell wall model to discuss the structural changes in the wood cell wall due to the ageing. 

4 Conclusions
  Vibrational properties of aged wood (ca.300 years has past after cutting) are compared to those of recently-cut wood. The aged wood showed greater stiffness (EL’, GLR’), higher sound velocity (VL) and lower damping (tand L) than the new wood. In addition, the ratio of Young’s modulus and shear modulus (EL’/GLR’) of the aged wood was significantly greater than that of new wood. All those changes suggested that the ageing is a fascinating “treatment” to improve the acoustic quality of wooden soundboard.
Ahaa... I somehow missed this important contribution by zeio, my bad... Any other published evidence of the importance of wood aging, anyone?

300 years of aging, eh? And the detected change in wood properties was how big? Extrapolating to even a couple of years (ok, let's make it round 10 ) is likely to produce ~1/30th of the effect published in the paper, ballpark estimate of course. I suspect you as a player changed much more during that time span. 
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