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richrf View Drop Down
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Next time I'm at the club I'm going to try to hunt down a large porous Donic. I'm curious because I've never heard it mentioned until now.
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Next time I'm at the club I'm going to try to hunt down a large porous Donic. I'm curious because I've never heard it mentioned until now.

It happens to even older rubbers like Tenergy, Genius and Baracuda occasionally if you use a lot of glue to get a thicker layer but no one really cares because the rubber still plays well.  It's the kind of thing you should obsess about only if the rubber doesn't play well.  But once you play with the rubber, you find that half of these complaints are about not liking how things look, which has nothing to do with how the rubber plays.  A bad glue job is always about how the rubber plays.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Next time I'm at the club I'm going to try to hunt down a large porous Donic. I'm curious because I've never heard it mentioned until now.

It happens to even older rubbers like Tenergy, Genius and Baracuda occasionally if you use a lot of glue to get a thicker layer but no one really cares because the rubber still plays well.  It's the kind of thing you should obsess about only if the rubber doesn't play well.  But once you play with the rubber, you find that half of these complaints are about not liking how things look, which has nothing to do with how the rubber plays.  A bad glue job is always about how the rubber plays.

Yes, it is true that playing well is the most important part of TT. But improving the quality of equipment is also important. 

I believe there is no brand like its rubber's unevenness and Donic does not like its rubber look uneven either. It may be making effort to solve the issue. 

As a customer, I have the right to know if there is unevenness of the product or not. 
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Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:

Off-topic, how does the blade play and which one were you using before? I ask because I'm interested in this blade :P


My previous paddle is
Stiga CL CR  FH: DHS hurricane 3 NEO BH: butterfly Siriver EL

Current:
stiga carbonado 145 FH: DHS hurricane 3 NEO BH: Donic bluefire M2


I just played once on stiga 145 and feel good on it so far. Compare to the clipper CL, I feel
1. It is faster than Clipper.
2. To block the ball, Need less action.
3. I may need to just my action on my FH loop, it is not spin as much as Clipper, but faster.
4. No much difference on the BH, but faster. As the bluefire M2 is faster than Siriver EL. So, hard to tell if it is due the blade. 
5. I thought the surface may be too hard to control, but donot feel it is hard to control. 

So far so good, but it is my opinion.Smile 






more stiff and solid feel?
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Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:

Off-topic, how does the blade play and which one were you using before? I ask because I'm interested in this blade :P


My previous paddle is
Stiga CL CR  FH: DHS hurricane 3 NEO BH: butterfly Siriver EL

Current:
stiga carbonado 145 FH: DHS hurricane 3 NEO BH: Donic bluefire M2


I just played once on stiga 145 and feel good on it so far. Compare to the clipper CL, I feel
1. It is faster than Clipper.
2. To block the ball, Need less action.
3. I may need to just my action on my FH loop, it is not spin as much as Clipper, but faster.
4. No much difference on the BH, but faster. As the bluefire M2 is faster than Siriver EL. So, hard to tell if it is due the blade. 
5. I thought the surface may be too hard to control, but donot feel it is hard to control. 

So far so good, but it is my opinion.Smile 






more stiff and solid feel?

Yes, as I can feel. When block the ball, I used to (stiga CL CR) have to push a little bit forward to make the ball long. But stiga 145 need less action.
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Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Next time I'm at the club I'm going to try to hunt down a large porous Donic. I'm curious because I've never heard it mentioned until now.

It happens to even older rubbers like Tenergy, Genius and Baracuda occasionally if you use a lot of glue to get a thicker layer but no one really cares because the rubber still plays well.  It's the kind of thing you should obsess about only if the rubber doesn't play well.  But once you play with the rubber, you find that half of these complaints are about not liking how things look, which has nothing to do with how the rubber plays.  A bad glue job is always about how the rubber plays.


Yes, it is true that playing well is the most important part of TT. But improving the quality of equipment is also important. 

I believe there is no brand like its rubber's unevenness and Donic does not like its rubber look uneven either. It may be making effort to solve the issue. 

As a customer, I have the right to know if there is unevenness of the product or not. 


It difficult to say whether an imperfect rubber plays well unless one has a good one to compare against. Because there are so many "explanations" for this rather curious phenomenon which I've never observed it hear talk about (until this thread), I'm going to hunt one down that was glued professionally and play with it myself. It's always possible that bad batches of rubber and blades are being funneled through online outlets. I'll see if I can find one.
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Next time I'm at the club I'm going to try to hunt down a large porous Donic. I'm curious because I've never heard it mentioned until now.

It happens to even older rubbers like Tenergy, Genius and Baracuda occasionally if you use a lot of glue to get a thicker layer but no one really cares because the rubber still plays well.  It's the kind of thing you should obsess about only if the rubber doesn't play well.  But once you play with the rubber, you find that half of these complaints are about not liking how things look, which has nothing to do with how the rubber plays.  A bad glue job is always about how the rubber plays.


Yes, it is true that playing well is the most important part of TT. But improving the quality of equipment is also important. 

I believe there is no brand like its rubber's unevenness and Donic does not like its rubber look uneven either. It may be making effort to solve the issue. 

As a customer, I have the right to know if there is unevenness of the product or not. 


It difficult to say whether an imperfect rubber plays well unless one has a good one to compare against. Because there are so many "explanations" for this rather curious phenomenon which I've never observed it hear talk about (until this thread), I'm going to hunt one down that was glued professionally and play with it myself. It's always possible that bad batches of rubber and blades are being funneled through online outlets. I'll see if I can find one.

I agree. Honestly, I donot think any professional player will play with this type of uneven rubber(if someone know any, let me know). Anyway, even I can not feel the difference, I will not buy this rubber any more. It is very strange no one even mention this before. I will also check my club tomorrow.

If it is only bad batches of rubber, I think the manufacture should know and the store should clearly state it when selling.
Stiga Carbonado 145
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Donic bluefire M2 2.0

Stiga Cl CR
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Butterfly Siriver EL
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Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

Anyway, even I can not feel the difference, I will not buy this rubber any more. It is very strange no one even mention this before. I will also check my club tomorrow.
If it is only bad batches of rubber, I think the manufacture should know and the store should clearly state it when selling.

I thinking that other forum members would post pics of their large porous rubber either Donic or otherwise. It would be interesting to do a comparison.

I am quite certain manufacturers are filling their pipelines with all kinds of equipment with little quality control. In general I trust Japanese made the most but this may be naive of me.
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

 
It difficult to say whether an imperfect rubber plays well unless one has a good one to compare against. Because there are so many "explanations" for this rather curious phenomenon which I've never observed it hear talk about (until this thread), I'm going to hunt one down that was glued professionally and play with it myself. It's always possible that bad batches of rubber and blades are being funneled through online outlets. I'll see if I can find one.

No, it's not difficult.  It's quite easy.  Use it and see if it makes a difference to how you play.  I have played with a lot of ESN rubbers and have never played with a batch or a rubber bad enough for me to notice the difference, no matter what the rubber supposedly looks like.  I have had heard all sorts of complaints about rubbers like age, evaporated booster, no longer fresh, etc. and I get it, you are supposed to pay for quality stuff.  But a lot of it is a waste of time if you are not a professional changing rubbers frequently enough to need the new sheets to play similarly to the old ones.  Most of us are going to stick a rubber on our blade for 3 months and in that case, they are all similar enough to when they were new for this stuff to be irrelevant. I've used 1 year old ESN and Tenergy sheets to play, mostly taking them off and putting them back on various blades.  Usually, if someone is focusing on stuff like this, they just don't play a lot.  It's okay to be inexperienced but acting like TT equipment is precision stuff is going to make you overthink a lot of stuff.


Edited by NextLevel - 12/01/2017 at 8:37pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

 
It difficult to say whether an imperfect rubber plays well unless one has a good one to compare against. Because there are so many "explanations" for this rather curious phenomenon which I've never observed it hear talk about (until this thread), I'm going to hunt one down that was glued professionally and play with it myself. It's always possible that bad batches of rubber and blades are being funneled through online outlets. I'll see if I can find one.


No, it's not difficult.  It's quite easy.  Use it and see if it makes a difference to how you play.  I have played with a lot of ESN rubbers and have never played with a batch or a rubber bad enough for me to notice the difference, no matter what the rubber supposedly looks like.  I have had heard all sorts of complaints about rubbers like age, evaporated booster, no longer fresh, etc. and I get it, you are supposed to pay for quality stuff.  But a lot of it is a waste of time if you are not a professional changing rubbers frequently enough to need the new sheets to play similarly to the old ones.  Most of us are going to stick a rubber on our blade for 3 months and in that case, they are all similar enough to when they were new for this stuff to be irrelevant. I've used 1 year old ESN and Tenergy sheets to play, mostly taking them off and putting them back on various blades.  Usually, if someone is focusing on stuff like this, they just don't play a lot.  It's okay to be inexperienced but acting like TT equipment is precision stuff is going to make you overthink a lot of stuff.


Would it be to much trouble for you to post some pics of rubbers (any manufactures) that look like this? I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks.

Edited by richrf - 12/01/2017 at 9:00pm
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Seanlin   Yes I had used M2 , I think it’s just the 2 layers of glue on my part, it plays fine

Edited by Chopper88 - 12/01/2017 at 10:40pm
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Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

Seanlin   Yes I had used M2 , I think it’s just the 2 layers of glue on my part, it plays fine

Thanks. I played my new paddle tonight, won three games straightSmile. Honestly, I did not feel the unevenness. 

From the information I got from this thread and my friends's help. Here is my conclusion and thought.
1. The big pore sponge does have the unevenness problem after gluing. 
    - The look is more exaggerated on black rubbers. It's still there on the red rubbers, but very faintly
    - this "look" will not go away
    - re-gluing does not help 
    - the unevenness may not affect the play.
    - the unevenness may depend on the glue brand and glue process.
2.  The unevenness may also depend on batches of the product. Some batches may not have the problem; Some does.
3. Here are some products that I have pictures showing unevenness
    a. Donic bluefire M2
    b. TIBHAR MX-P
    c. TiBHAR EL-P 
4.  Other products that claimed has the similar problem
    Andro Rasant, Rasant Grip, max black OmegaV Tour

My suggestion is 
1. The manufactures should improve the Quality Control.
2. Manufactures should distinguish the good patches and bad patches. Marks the different level. Like PingPong ball, training ball, 1 star, 2 star, 3 star.
 
Stiga Carbonado 145
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Donic bluefire M2 2.0

Stiga Cl CR
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Butterfly Siriver EL
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

 
It difficult to say whether an imperfect rubber plays well unless one has a good one to compare against. Because there are so many "explanations" for this rather curious phenomenon which I've never observed it hear talk about (until this thread), I'm going to hunt one down that was glued professionally and play with it myself. It's always possible that bad batches of rubber and blades are being funneled through online outlets. I'll see if I can find one.


No, it's not difficult.  It's quite easy.  Use it and see if it makes a difference to how you play.  I have played with a lot of ESN rubbers and have never played with a batch or a rubber bad enough for me to notice the difference, no matter what the rubber supposedly looks like.  I have had heard all sorts of complaints about rubbers like age, evaporated booster, no longer fresh, etc. and I get it, you are supposed to pay for quality stuff.  But a lot of it is a waste of time if you are not a professional changing rubbers frequently enough to need the new sheets to play similarly to the old ones.  Most of us are going to stick a rubber on our blade for 3 months and in that case, they are all similar enough to when they were new for this stuff to be irrelevant. I've used 1 year old ESN and Tenergy sheets to play, mostly taking them off and putting them back on various blades.  Usually, if someone is focusing on stuff like this, they just don't play a lot.  It's okay to be inexperienced but acting like TT equipment is precision stuff is going to make you overthink a lot of stuff.


Would it be to much trouble for you to post some pics of rubbers (any manufactures) that look like this? I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks.



Edited by NextLevel - 12/01/2017 at 11:44pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?7663-Bats-of-the-German-League-Players-Gallery!


I was hoping you would provide me with photos of your own. In any case, I think these photos are a good ad for Butterfly. ☺
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?7663-Bats-of-the-German-League-Players-Gallery!


I was hoping you would provide me with photos of your own. In any case, I think these photos are a good ad for Butterfly. ☺
I could provide my photos but why take mine when I can be accused of a bad glue job when pros are out there with the same issues?  And anyone who looks at the photos will see that there are lots of Tenergies in there with similar issues - look at the Fransizka blade for example.

EDIT: Hielscher and Mengel are even clearer.

In the end, this is the kind of stuff that players who don't practice a lot worry about.  Be OCD about something more productive.


Edited by NextLevel - 12/02/2017 at 12:01am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[QUOTE=richrf] 


Would it be to much trouble for you to post some pics of rubbers (any manufactures) that look like this? I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks.


NextLevel: 
Good picture. Very helpful!!!
Looks the butterfly has better QC than Tibhar. Of course, more expensive!!!Dead In addition, people have different view on things. For example, you prefer that a paddle that just works. But other may care about the craftsmanship of the blade. It likes picking a wife. Some prefer intellectual,  some prefer good cooking. Big smile Good lookingTongue


Edited by seanlin1971 - 12/02/2017 at 12:10am
Stiga Carbonado 145
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Donic bluefire M2 2.0

Stiga Cl CR
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Butterfly Siriver EL
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At this point I rest my case.  Pro blades are being accused of having QC issues - doesn't that tell us something about what is relevant to quality?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

At this point I rest my case.  Pro blades are being accused of having QC issues - doesn't that tell us something about what is relevant to quality?

No hard feeling. Have fun to play PingPong. I 100% agree with you that PingPing is all about sweating, laughing and FUN!
Stiga Carbonado 145
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Donic bluefire M2 2.0

Stiga Cl CR
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Butterfly Siriver EL
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

I have no idea ""Are all large pore rubbers like this or only certain batches? "But my friend tried MX-P yesterday, it has the similar unevenness. What he "noticed more so on the black rubbers than on red"


When you say unevenness, are you speaking strictly abound visual appearance or also about how it feels to the touch? Thanks.



seanlin:  you can only call unevenness if you see and feel (run your fingertips over the topsheet surface) tiny bumps on surface of topsheet. My black rubbers are perfectly flat despite having this "visual-look". Again, it does not affect play. Dont think about it when playing. Just play hard 
Andro Treiber Z - fl
FH: Tibhar MX-D max
BH: Tibhar Quantum ProX-blue,max
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Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

Honestly, hard to tell. From theory ( I am an engineer :)Smile), if there is visual appearance uneveness, there will be actually unevenness. That is how some measure machines work. 


Thanks. This seems reasonable since any optical effect would necessarily imply uneven surfaces but do you actually feel something? Still curious whether it is only certain batches it all batches? If someone has M2 without this effect it would answer the question.



Your description of "visual appearance unevenness" sounds like looking at the rubber sheet like looking in the mirror (as seen in the photos). As I said yesterday, hold the edge of the blade up to your eyes and look very closely across the surface of the topsheet. What do you see ?  tiny bumps or flat surface?  My black Rasant/Rasant Grip/MX-P rubbers are flat. But looking at them like in the photos, I see the same as you.  Does not affect my play

I'm going to lean toward a huge batch of rubbers having this look, but spread out over a few different brands - ESN rubbers
 
Andro Treiber Z - fl
FH: Tibhar MX-D max
BH: Tibhar Quantum ProX-blue,max
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Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

It’s normal, all my Donic rubbers look like that, even the new Bluestorm



My red 2.1 Donic Bluestorm Z1 does not look like that. Not even faintly. Its perfect

The evidence is leading toward bad batches!!!
Andro Treiber Z - fl
FH: Tibhar MX-D max
BH: Tibhar Quantum ProX-blue,max
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It might be just the way I glued or the glue I used, never had a perfect sheet, but it plays fine
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Originally posted by Snakefish Snakefish wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by seanlin1971 seanlin1971 wrote:

I have no idea ""Are all large pore rubbers like this or only certain batches? "But my friend tried MX-P yesterday, it has the similar unevenness. What he "noticed more so on the black rubbers than on red"


When you say unevenness, are you speaking strictly abound visual appearance or also about how it feels to the touch? Thanks.



seanlin:  you can only call unevenness if you see and feel (run your fingertips over the topsheet surface) tiny bumps on surface of topsheet. My black rubbers are perfectly flat despite having this "visual-look". Again, it does not affect play. Dont think about it when playing. Just play hard 

Snakefish: Thanks. I really appreciate your replies. I agree with you and nextlevel. This "unevenness" may not affect the play and play hard. Actually, Donic service gives the best answer, but he does not want me to post his whole reply.

"The unevenness perceived by the human eye is much bigger than the actual unevenness when measured, meaning that the surface as far as playing properties are concerned can be regarded as smooth."

I am trying to be objective on this. The customer has the right to know the fact. I update my original post. Please take a look and let me know.
Stiga Carbonado 145
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Donic bluefire M2 2.0

Stiga Cl CR
FH: DHS Hurricane3 neo 2.15
BH: Butterfly Siriver EL
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zeio View Drop Down
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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This is normal for soft/med Tensors. Most of the tensor except the really hard sponged versions (smaller pores)have this appearance. It does not effect play. With pores so large on a softer sponge and such a thin top sheet it's going to happen.
OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip
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zeropong View Drop Down
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Any large cell sponge in combination with very aggressive type water glue has the possibility of this effect, the large cells at the base collapse because they get full of glue, this causes a ripple effect through the bubbles of the sponge and you can see this "push pull" effect, the pips are now slightly aimed different directions causing disruptions on the top of the rubber. I am sure it is perfectly playable however the engineering of this rubber was intended for the pips to all be oriented perfectly and uniformly outward.

Water base glues leave lots of product in the cells of the sponge, the ones that dry "gummy" are the worst offenders.
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richrf View Drop Down
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Originally posted by zeropong zeropong wrote:

Any large cell sponge in combination with very aggressive type water glue has the possibility of this effect, the large cells at the base collapse because they get full of glue, this causes a ripple effect through the bubbles of the sponge and you can see this "push pull" effect, the pips are now slightly aimed different directions causing disruptions on the top of the rubber. I am sure it is perfectly playable however the engineering of this rubber was intended for the pips to all be oriented perfectly and uniformly outward.

Water base glues leave lots of product in the cells of the sponge, the ones that dry "gummy" are the worst offenders.


Thank you for a reasonable explanation of what is happening.



Edited by richrf - 12/02/2017 at 10:01am
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