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Specifics for the Pivot Cross Drive

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mickd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/26/2018 at 1:58am
I had a chance to hit with one of the strongest club members the other day. I've asked him in the past and he thinks my main problem is the lack of speed. I go too much for spin and lack forward weight transfer.

I've also never had a pivot cross drive, so he said he'll help me with it. He gave me lots of advice which was really helpful. I practiced with him on it for about 10 to 15 minutes.

One of the main goals was to drive the ball with speed, so creating the bang sound more than just brushing up on the ball. Up until now I've rarely ever hit the ball with a bang sound.

Anyway, I really enjoy this stroke. I've been practicing a backhand loop against underspin for nearly 2 years now and it still feels uncomfortable to me (I'll still keep practicing it).

Please let me know what you think and if there's anything you'd recommend me to change or work on!


The very first point is him demonstrating his version. Then it's me doing it for about a minute. Then the last 20 seconds are of various misses I had.

Throughout the session he recommended several things, like taking a step back after the serve so that I have room to swing forward into the ball, staying low, thinking about the wide angle placement, driving the ball using my legs, not my arm, and keeping my weight on my left leg (left hander) and exploding forward.

Help is always appreciated!


Edited by mickd - 06/26/2018 at 1:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 5:18am
You still use your arm primarily instead of your legs and body. Your stroke is more like a control loop/drive rather than a powerful drive. It's not necessarily bad because I think it fits your "control" style. But if you want to have more power, you need to stay lower, use your legs and body more, and really commit everything into the shots. Your weight transfer is still too short/little.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 6:22am
Keep your elbow closer to the body during the backswing, and use more of your legs and waist to drive the ball. It still looks like too much arm to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 6:25am
Thank you, balldance!

I think a lack of fundamentals early on in my table tennis development has really impacted my ability to weight transfer using the legs!! I always went up instead of forward into the ball.

I reviewed those videos and I think committing more to the stroke like you said will help me use my leg and body more.

I found it interesting that Zhou Qihao finishes the stroke with like a lunge forward. I find that whenever I try to add more weight transfer, I end up doing that. Before I wasn't sure if that was okay, since if you look at Ma Long, like in the end of TOMORROW table tennis' video, you'll see he doesn't really lunge into the ball. But I guess that's just a balance between how much you're valuing recovery and power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 6:28am
Thanks blahness. I'll try to do that during the next practice session (probably Thursday)! Having my elbow closer to my body should force me to use more body. I feel like I'd really need to commit to the shot to get any power with less arm.

That said, I don't really feel like I'm using that much arm, but the general consensus from everyone, including people who see me play in real life, is that I'm using too much arm! So there's definitely work to be done!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 9:08am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks blahness. I'll try to do that during the next practice session (probably Thursday)! Having my elbow closer to my body should force me to use more body. I feel like I'd really need to commit to the shot to get any power with less arm.

That said, I don't really feel like I'm using that much arm, but the general consensus from everyone, including people who see me play in real life, is that I'm using too much arm! So there's definitely work to be done!

I usually diagnose issues by the backswing itself, the stroke itself is very much controlled by the backswing. So looking at your backswing: 



You can clearly see that you've bent down with good weight transfer and rotated your waist, however there seems to be a disconnect between your arm action and your lower body power, and the core reason behind it is that your elbow is way too far from your core. 

If you look at a very nice Ma Long backswing pic (from one of your old threads!):


Look at pics 1 to 4: You can see how close to the body the elbow really is during the backswing. There is almost no arm backswing (don't move your arm back during the backswing, this is the most important point!), everything is initiated from the waist and the legs. Also note the position of the bat to attack backspin (quite low!). 

You can try looking in the mirror and emulating position 3 for your backswing. If you get to position 3-4, you would be always in a very good position to do a quality loop drive of the ball.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 9:14am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thank you, balldance!

I think a lack of fundamentals early on in my table tennis development has really impacted my ability to weight transfer using the legs!! I always went up instead of forward into the ball.

I reviewed those videos and I think committing more to the stroke like you said will help me use my leg and body more.

I found it interesting that Zhou Qihao finishes the stroke with like a lunge forward. I find that whenever I try to add more weight transfer, I end up doing that. Before I wasn't sure if that was okay, since if you look at Ma Long, like in the end of TOMORROW table tennis' video, you'll see he doesn't really lunge into the ball. But I guess that's just a balance between how much you're valuing recovery and power.

Don't worry about the followthrough too much, once you've got the backswing right, it will sort itself out :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 11:43am
Thanks for taking the time to write that up, blahness! I remember that picture well! Damn that was awhile ago!!

A smaller backswing is something I've been trying to implement for awhile now too. I love how well the pros do it...

I might take another video from a side on angle to see how far back my arm is actually going. While my backswing is definitely bigger than the pros, I don't feel like my elbow is going that far back behind my body. For example, in number 4 of Ma Long's swing, it's hard to tell from that angle how far back his arm is going. You can see his elbow is staying quite close to his body, but his arm could be going roughly behind his bottom. Hard to see from the side on angle. From the angle I took the video, you can see my arm is going well past my bottom, but you can't really see if there is a gap between my elbow and body.

Depending on how it looks when I take the side on video, I might only need to swing back a little less. Or maybe I'll also need to close the angle between my arm and body to get my elbow closer... Hopefully I don't need to try and fix that too!

Videos don't lie, which is a good thing because we can clearly see my backswing is quite big, but i barely feel like I'm swinging backwards when I rotate my body to prepare for the shot...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thank you, balldance!

I think a lack of fundamentals early on in my table tennis development has really impacted my ability to weight transfer using the legs!! I always went up instead of forward into the ball.

I reviewed those videos and I think committing more to the stroke like you said will help me use my leg and body more.

I found it interesting that Zhou Qihao finishes the stroke with like a lunge forward. I find that whenever I try to add more weight transfer, I end up doing that. Before I wasn't sure if that was okay, since if you look at Ma Long, like in the end of TOMORROW table tennis' video, you'll see he doesn't really lunge into the ball. But I guess that's just a balance between how much you're valuing recovery and power.


It's okay to commit more to the stroke even if it means you lunge forward into the ball. You can see Ryu Seung Min or Ma Lin even more extreme doing this stroke to go for a immediate winner. You need to learn the feeling of committing your whole body into the shots first. Once you can "feel" that you are doing right, you can reduce the forward lunge and add more control like Ma Long.

And blahness has a point there, I don't think it's precisely about your elbow but about the arm backswing. You swing back your arm (independently from your body) too much, it means less control and then you have to swing your arm upward more (again, independently from your body) and it will prevent you from using power from your legs and body. If you watch the tutorial again, he has some words about this at 0:47.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2018 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thank you, balldance!

I think a lack of fundamentals early on in my table tennis development has really impacted my ability to weight transfer using the legs!! I always went up instead of forward into the ball.

I reviewed those videos and I think committing more to the stroke like you said will help me use my leg and body more.

I found it interesting that Zhou Qihao finishes the stroke with like a lunge forward. I find that whenever I try to add more weight transfer, I end up doing that. Before I wasn't sure if that was okay, since if you look at Ma Long, like in the end of TOMORROW table tennis' video, you'll see he doesn't really lunge into the ball. But I guess that's just a balance between how much you're valuing recovery and power.


It's okay to commit more to the stroke even if it means you lunge forward into the ball. You can see Ryu Seung Min or Ma Lin even more extreme doing this stroke to go for a immediate winner. You need to learn the feeling of committing your whole body into the shots first. Once you can "feel" that you are doing right, you can reduce the forward lunge and add more control like Ma Long.

And blahness has a point there, I don't think it's precisely about your elbow but about the arm backswing. You swing back your arm (independently from your body) too much, it means less control and then you have to swing your arm upward more (again, independently from your body) and it will prevent you from using power from your legs and body. If you watch the tutorial again, he has some words about this at 0:47.


Yep the distance between the elbow and the waist is indicative of too much arm backswing which destroys the connection between the legs/waist with the ball. The backswing should be all about the legs and the waist and consciously going to a position which places the elbow closer to the waist will force that to happen. Also good point about going big first and then toning it down later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2018 at 2:04am
Thanks guys. I reviewed some of my older videos to see if I can get a better idea of what's happening before my next practice session.

It seems like during the first half of the backswing (shoulders rotating, getting a little lower, etc.), my arm is actually quite stationary and being controlled mostly by my body.

But during the second half when my shoulders have mostly finished rotating, my arm continues to go backward. While my elbow is moving back a little in this part too, most of it is because of my forearm opening the angle and straightening my arm (I'm straightening it backwards away from my body).

I think what I need to do is have my racket lower with my arm straightening down towards the floor instead of behind me.

I hope that makes sense. What do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2018 at 3:29am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks guys. I reviewed some of my older videos to see if I can get a better idea of what's happening before my next practice session.

It seems like during the first half of the backswing (shoulders rotating, getting a little lower, etc.), my arm is actually quite stationary and being controlled mostly by my body.

But during the second half when my shoulders have mostly finished rotating, my arm continues to go backward. While my elbow is moving back a little in this part too, most of it is because of my forearm opening the angle and straightening my arm (I'm straightening it backwards away from my body).

I think what I need to do is have my racket lower with my arm straightening down towards the floor instead of behind me.

I hope that makes sense. What do you think?

Yes you're attempting to achieve more power by swinging your arm more (which leads to your arm going backwards away from your body as you mentioned). Instead, think about more rotation at the waist, and pushing off harder from the ground when you need more power! 

A good distance between the elbow and the core during the backswing is a lot closer than what you think, they should be almost touching! If you slowmo what your hitting partner did at the beginning of the video, it's a very good demonstration of that. Straightening the arm should not be in conflict to keeping the elbow close to the body.  

The low racket you see from the pros is due to them bending down at the knees, not because they bring their arm low Wink... It's all about the legs and waist, not about the arm!


Edited by blahness - 06/27/2018 at 3:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2018 at 4:38am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks guys. I reviewed some of my older videos to see if I can get a better idea of what's happening before my next practice session.

It seems like during the first half of the backswing (shoulders rotating, getting a little lower, etc.), my arm is actually quite stationary and being controlled mostly by my body.

But during the second half when my shoulders have mostly finished rotating, my arm continues to go backward. While my elbow is moving back a little in this part too, most of it is because of my forearm opening the angle and straightening my arm (I'm straightening it backwards away from my body).

I think what I need to do is have my racket lower with my arm straightening down towards the floor instead of behind me.

I hope that makes sense. What do you think?


Whether arm should be straight down towards the floor or backward depending on the coming ball. If the coming ball is low and has underspin, you need to go low. If it has no spin or topspin, you don't need to lower too much. BUT the important thing is you should backswing with your body, not your arm. Get low and let your arm straight down towards the floor with your body (waist) movement and same for backward. Don't do anything with your arm alone. There will be some independent arm movement anyway, but it should be a result of relaxed arm and momentum primarily.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2018 at 8:16am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:




My two bob's worth:  I think it's useful to note the relationship between hips, shoulders and arm.  In the progression of ML's swing, we can see that the hips lead the shoulders and the shoulders lead the arm.  In frames 1-3, the hips are going back, followed by the shoulders and then the arm.  In frame 4, we can see clearly that the hips are already moving foward: compare the position of his left hip against the writing on the barrier in the background.  He's driving forward.  However, his right hand has been left behind (again compare against background) and is only now starting to be whipped forward by his shoulder.

Hip, then shoulder, then arm.

It's also instructive to note the finishing positions in frames 7 and 8.  They're from a different sequence than 1-4, but they still tell us something about hips leading the movement.  Note the clear placement of ML's left foot in front of his right in both shots.  Now consider his hips.  His right hip is in front of his right (or at least level) indicating a huge uncoiling of his body from his rotation in the back swing.  It is the hips that have generated the power.  The arm's momentum is dependent upon the force generated through the torso.  Hips first, then shoulder.  Arm comes last.

If you go back and look at your video, ask yourself:  Do my hips turn back before I take my arm back?  Do my hips lead my shoulders, and do my shoulders lead my arm?  Where are my hips at the end of the stroke?

For reference, you can look at your partner's first forehand.  Where do his hips finish?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2018 at 12:57am
Thank you blahness, balldance and Tassie52 for all the advice. I think I'm finally seeing it. I reviewed a lot of my older videos too and I now see I'm using shoulder then arm, but skipping out on the hip step most of the time.

I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to add hip in. I see it now, but I still have no confidence in the timing needed to add hip first. But that's okay because practice will eventually let me get it right (with your continued help :) )!

I got a PM from a kind forum member who suggested using a shrivel chair to help with adding the hip. It reminded me of an old video I saw a long time ago when I was researching about teaching kids (since I spend like 8 hours a week helping and teaching kids). At that point I didn't really understand what it was doing.

Here is the video. What do you guys think? Is this a good way to go? And do you know any other tricks to help with adding in the hip?




Edited by mickd - 06/28/2018 at 12:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2018 at 2:30am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thank you blahness, balldance and Tassie52 for all the advice. I think I'm finally seeing it. I reviewed a lot of my older videos too and I now see I'm using shoulder then arm, but skipping out on the hip step most of the time.

I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to add hip in. I see it now, but I still have no confidence in the timing needed to add hip first. But that's okay because practice will eventually let me get it right (with your continued help :) )!

I got a PM from a kind forum member who suggested using a shrivel chair to help with adding the hip. It reminded me of an old video I saw a long time ago when I was researching about teaching kids (since I spend like 8 hours a week helping and teaching kids). At that point I didn't really understand what it was doing.

Here is the video. What do you guys think? Is this a good way to go? And do you know any other tricks to help with adding in the hip?






Great to see that you're getting it! I wouldnt say that you're not using your hips (it looks as if you do!), it's just that your additional arm action is causing that power to be lost in the power chain. If you cut down on the excessive arm movement by consciously keeping your elbow very close to your body during the backswing (you cannot have backwards arm action and still have the elbow close to your body!), you would fix this issue in no time, and you'll start to discover new levels of power, combined with your already decent touch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2018 at 4:09am
I think mickd does use hip, legs and weight transfer power, but I think he doesn't use it enough, still uses his arm swing mainly. Something like 60-70% from arm swing and 30-40% from the rest, while it should be the opposite, especially for powerful loop drive.

@mickd: I don't have any trick other than doing shadow practice: stay low (lower than what you did in the video), relax arm, don't swing your arm/shoulder at all, instead swing your whole upper body back (like what you are doing) and then swing/throw it up and forward, to the other side. You should finish with your upper body facing the other side, like Zhou Qihao or Ma Long in that picture 8. You will feel a lot of power is generated with that movement. After you feel familiar with that, gradually add a little arm swing/snap.


Edited by balldance - 06/28/2018 at 4:11am
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