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How to figure out opponent's weakness fast

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blahness View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09/12/2019 at 11:23pm
In a match situation what do you do to formulate a strategy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2019 at 4:26am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

In a match situation what do you do to formulate a strategy?

I would suggest reading mjamja's masterful Style, Strategy, and Tactics thread here on MyTableTennis.net.

Identify your and your opponent's style with pre-match scouting.  Then read which strategies his style might use and finally read the weaknesses of that strategy/style combination.  

You should be able to do all that within your first 3 "6 point timeouts".

It is a documented fact that several players simply defaulted when they saw their opponent referencing the Style, Strategy,and Tactics thread on their phones just before match start.

Mark - Author, coach, tactician, and genuinely humble guy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Twiddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2019 at 9:24am
Check their stance, is it neutral? If they favor the BH or FH then go after the weaker side.
 Watch their serves and be ready to answer.
 If they have a strong loop -loop 1st.
 Keep thinking and be ready to adjust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2019 at 11:36am
Pay attention during warmup. Their strokes, movement, disposition, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2019 at 12:26pm
If you get chance before watch their match play and get an idea of things before..

If you are going in cold so to speak agreed with trying to picking up clues from the knock-up.

sounds stupid but Remember to relax and play your game and play to your strengths and probe the other players wings and middle to see what you get.

You can also tell a lot by someone's return of serve and serve and return. How they stand, Where they stand etc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ndotson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2019 at 2:03pm
Some players make the mistake of using the first game to figure out an opponent's weakness and they play much too passively. They end up learning more about their opponent's strengths and create a feeble strategy of just trying to avoid those strengths.
I find it to be much more effective to see the first game as an opportunity to impose your own strengths and make adjustments from the results. Your opponent's weaknesses become more exposed with this approach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2019 at 7:21am
Check their grip.  Does it favor FH or BH?  That tells you where their crossover point is.  Not the same for all players, and if you are ever going to " attack their middle" you need to know where the middle actually IS (and where it isnt).  

This in addition to stuff mentioned above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2019 at 9:41am
Very good point about the middle Baal 👍 I was being pretty general I guess. Movement, recovery etc. The grip is a really good one as well. 

Random thought but... 

This reminds me a bit of waying up an opponent before a bout/fight or those old samauri duels where any sign would be looked for to gain an advantage in battle.

Nice topic Blahness. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTHOUSTON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2019 at 2:49pm
When I coach my daughter in tournament years ago, I want she does everything she can like services, push, attack, trap all the locations on the table for me to see how the opponent reaction, then I will tell my daughter void to return the ball to their favorite side or void to use what type of service they like, and save the some best plan for closure of the game at 8-8 or last game.
Plus I also need to let my daughter know what the opponent found my daughter weaker so she can prepare to defense.
Bottom line, you need a coach or friend coach your game better than you do your own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2019 at 3:54pm
You can look for some basic stuff. If they are standing way to the backhand corner waiting to receive serve... odds are they will be forehand dominant. If they're in the middle, safer to expect backhand stuff in return. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2019 at 5:12pm

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

In a match situation what do you do to formulate a strategy?

I sort of wrote a book on this topic. The first half of the book covers this type of tactical and strategic thinking; the second half covers what things to look for against various styles and equipment. What you look for varies, depending on the opponent. For example, if the opponent is 6'6" or is a chopper (and really, most players), I'm looking to see how weak he is in the middle. If he's 4'6" or plays with the Seemiller grip, then I'm looking to see how weak he is at the corners. Does he have a stronger side? If so, is it better to play to the weaker side, or go to the strong side first to draw the player out of position, and then go back to the weak side? What serves and receives work or don't work? And so on. 

In general, as I wrote in the book, "Tactics isn’t about finding complex strategies to defeat an opponent. Tactics is about sifting through all the zillions of possible tactics and finding a few simple ones that work." If possible, scout the opponent in advance, and ask other players or coaches about the player. Once in the match, focus on forcing your game on the opponent, while feeling out the opponent to see what gives him trouble and allows you to dominate, and try to find those few simple tactics that work.

-Larry Hodges (currently in Berlin), who suddenly finds Mytt.com a pleasant place for the next 30 days…



Edited by larrytt - 09/15/2019 at 12:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeryMerke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

In a match situation what do you do to formulate a strategy?

I sort of wrote a book on this topic. The first half of the book covers this type of tactical and strategic thinking; the second half covers what things to look for against various styles and equipment.


Sorry IMO looks back asswards to me .  The reason I say is that it may be easier to formulate the strategy after you identify a players's style & equipment. 

As you point out yourselves, there are zillions of combinations. You can reduce the complications billionfold then, by narrowing down to specific style / equipment and then zeroing in on strategies & tactics for this specific situation 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

In a match situation what do you do to formulate a strategy?

I sort of wrote a book on this topic. The first half of the book covers this type of tactical and strategic thinking; the second half covers what things to look for against various styles and equipment.


Sorry IMO looks back asswards to me .  The reason I say is that it may be easier to formulate the strategy after you identify a players's style & equipment. 

As you point out yourselves, there are zillions of combinations. You can reduce the complications billionfold then, by narrowing down to specific style / equipment and then zeroing in on strategies & tactics for this specific situation 
You need to set up the foundation for tactical and strategic thinking before going into specifics, if you want to develop to your potential. That's what the book tries to do, with a lot about the differences between the two, and when to do each. (Tactical is short-term, strategic is long-term; you need to develop both types of thinking.) Short term, in a given match, you would, of course, use the second half of the book that gets into specifics of what to look for in a given match against a given style or equipment. But you need to look long-term if you want to really develop your tactical and strategic game. (Chapter One is six pages on Tactical Thinking, Chapter Two is ten pages on Strategic Thinking, and we go back to both repeatedly in the book.)

To use a metaphor, if you want to repair a broken generator in your car, you could learn how specifically to do that. But if you want to be a mechanic, you would want to understand how the engine works, not just the generator or whatever part of the engine happens to break. Similarly, if you want to beat, say, a chopper, you might learn how to tactically play a chopper. But if you want to be a top player or top tactician, then you would learn how tactical and strategic thinking works, which sets the foundation long-term. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeryMerke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

[QUOTE=GeryMerke][
You need to set up the foundation for tactical and strategic thinking before going into specifics,
-Larry Hodges

But the problem with your approach is that is that you are talking about tactics & strategies in terms of generalities.  Even if about table-tennis only, the possibilities are zillions. You need specific items (such as style/equipment) as your foundation. So you need to talk about your foundation first & then short term & long-term plans on solving each problem. I am just trying to reduce the possibilities from zillions to billions and make it a little easier for a person to solve little easier 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

[QUOTE=GeryMerke][
You need to set up the foundation for tactical and strategic thinking before going into specifics,
-Larry Hodges

But the problem with your approach is that is that you are talking about tactics & strategies in terms of generalities.  Even if about table-tennis only, the possibilities are zillions. You need specific items (such as style/equipment) as your foundation. So you need to talk about your foundation first & then short term & long-term plans on solving each problem. I am just trying to reduce the possibilities from zillions to billions and make it a little easier for a person to solve little easier 
Sorry, but I completely disagree with you on this. The foundation of tactics is developing tactical and strategic thinking, so that you then understand how to apply the general tactics used against various styles and equipment. And again, you just joined this forum a couple hours ago and all of your (anonymous) posts are in response to my tactical postings. I wonder why? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeryMerke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

[QUOTE=larrytt][QUOTE=GeryMerke][
You need to set up the foundation for tactical and strategic thinking before going into specifics,
-Larry Hodges

And again, you just joined this forum a couple hours ago and all of your (anonymous) posts are in response to my tactical postings. I wonder why? 
-Larry Hodges

Ok we disagree no problem but your conspiracy theories (that I am singling you out) are hilarious.
I intend to reply other posts as well or post new ones. I hope that is ok with you unless you think I am beneath you just because I am new member. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

[QUOTE=larrytt][QUOTE=GeryMerke][
You need to set up the foundation for tactical and strategic thinking before going into specifics,
-Larry Hodges

And again, you just joined this forum a couple hours ago and all of your (anonymous) posts are in response to my tactical postings. I wonder why? 
-Larry Hodges

Ok we disagree no problem but your conspiracy theories (that I am singling you out) are hilarious.
I intend to reply other posts as well or post new ones. I hope that is ok with you unless you think I am beneath you just because I am new member. 
Don't worry, Keith Lin, it's fine that you reply to others as well. Perhaps you should read my book so you'll have a better understanding of the things we are discussing? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeryMerke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Don't worry, Keith Lin, it's fine that you reply to others as well. Perhaps you should read my book so you'll have a better understanding of the things we are discussing? 
-Larry Hodges

Why would I read someone's book when I know for sure  more than ever that the basic premise of the book is severely flawed & is back asswards ?

Good Bye
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Don't worry, Keith Lin, it's fine that you reply to others as well. Perhaps you should read my book so you'll have a better understanding of the things we are discussing? 
-Larry Hodges

Why would I read someone's book when I know for sure  more than ever that the basic premise of the book is severely flawed & is back asswards ?

Good Bye
Um, so you could understand what is being written and the reasoning behind it? Since you are so critical of it, perhaps you should read the reviews of the book by people who have actually read the book? 
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 09/17/2019 at 10:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/17/2019 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Don't worry, Keith Lin, it's fine that you reply to others as well. Perhaps you should read my book so you'll have a better understanding of the things we are discussing? 
-Larry Hodges

Why would I read someone's book when I know for sure  more than ever that the basic premise of the book is severely flawed & is back asswards ?

Good Bye

No offense Mr "new member" but your account is very suspicious. 

You just signed up 4 hours ago.. and all of a sudden you start arguing (in two separate threads) with one of the most knowledgeable and respected coaches in the country. 

If this is not trolling then I don't know what is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeryMerke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 12:49am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Don't worry, Keith Lin, it's fine that you reply to others as well. Perhaps you should read my book so you'll have a better understanding of the things we are discussing? 
-Larry Hodges

Why would I read someone's book when I know for sure  more than ever that the basic premise of the book is severely flawed & is back asswards ?

Good Bye
Um, so you could understand what is being written and the reasoning behind it? Since you are so critical of it, perhaps you should read the reviews of the book by people who have actually read the book? 
-Larry Hodges
 

Again as I said , the very premise of your book is flawed.
Case closed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 1:12am
Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by GeryMerke GeryMerke wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Don't worry, Keith Lin, it's fine that you reply to others as well. Perhaps you should read my book so you'll have a better understanding of the things we are discussing? 
-Larry Hodges

Why would I read someone's book when I know for sure  more than ever that the basic premise of the book is severely flawed & is back asswards ?

Good Bye
Um, so you could understand what is being written and the reasoning behind it? Since you are so critical of it, perhaps you should read the reviews of the book by people who have actually read the book? 
-Larry Hodges
 

Again as I said , the very premise of your book is flawed.
Case closed

Says the person who doesn't understand the very premise of the book, which he hasn't read, and who wrote, "I will take the high road & ignore you," and then didn't. And saying "Case closed" when most disagree with your *opinion* is a classic sign of a closed mind. You are still in your 20s and only recently achieved your first 2000+ rating (congrats on that, Keith Lin/"banned" Hunkeelin!), and haven't even played a tournament outside your home state, so maybe, just maybe, you should consider the possibility that you don't know everything yet? I'm 59 and have coached professionally for about 12 years longer than you have been alive, and I sure don't. (I learn something new practically every time I read the equipment discussions here, and every time Dan Seemiller or Stellan Bengtsson opens their mouth.) 
-Larry Hodges, off soon to visit and learn at the Warsaw Uprising Museum here in Poland, where I'm on a European tour...


Edited by larrytt - 09/18/2019 at 3:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 10:56am
"Table Tennis Tactics for thinkers" is by far the best book on table tennis available. I've read it about five or six times. My copy is all highlighted and underscored and dog eared. It is packed with tons of suggestions and ideas which are well organized in several sections. 
I do think it is dishonest to criticize a piece of work without first reading it yourself. 

FdT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 1:54pm
I can't believe that anyone would argue that you can't actually devise a kind of broad strategy that you might use after watching an opponent play.  Seriously, most of the time you can see some stuff that you might be able to exploit (assuming you can execute the necessary stuff yourself).  This is especially true if you've played the person before.  Again, anyone arguing that this is not worth talking or thinking about is so off base that they almost have to be trolling.

So the question is, what are some of the things you can look for?  Well there are lots of things and some of them are very specific (a few mentioned here).  I am sure Larry laid out a lot of things in his book (I've not seen it), and certainly a couple of good coaches I've had have talked about some of these things.  And a lot of the time the resulting strategy doesn't need to be real complicated.  (For just one of many possible examples, I always try to figure out where an opponent's cross over point is, since it varies on different players, and that determines where the opponent's "middle" is, and I like to attack people in their middle).  I always look to see if they move in one direction better than another.  I look to see if they are able to serve really long or really short.  I check if opponent's are popping up the returns of their serves.  Can they open effectively with third balls from both sides and is there a tendency to be erratic on one side or the other, and do they have a tendency to get impatient in rallies?  Do they have a big weapon you need to fear?  So many other things.  A broad category that I want to know is whether the opponent has a tendency to beat themselves on one thing or another?

But as Mike Tyson once said, a lot of plans go out the window as soon as you get hit in the face, and sometimes when you actually get across from the table what is actually happening to you is not what you expected or saw from watching the person earlier.   But that doesn't mean you can't make some plans after scouting a player.


Edited by Baal - 09/18/2019 at 2:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2019 at 3:00pm
two simple things if you can watch them play someone else: 
1) how do they win points when they win?  
2) How do they lose points when they lose?
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Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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