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My Darker Hinoki Shake Speed 90... |
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Anton Chigurh 
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 Topic: My Darker Hinoki Shake Speed 90...Posted: 01/29/2010 at 2:55am |
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... arrived from Japan today. It's so pretty... the straightest, tightest grain I've ever seen on a Hinoki blade, including jpens. I've taken it out of the box once, smelled it, and felt how light it was in my hands (87g). Since I've put it back, I've been scared to take it out again. I feel like I purchased a piece of valuable artwork and I might drop it or scratch it and be forced to commit seppuku.
Nonetheless, I'll have to play it some day--but I have no idea what rubbers to put on it. I prefer tacky Chinese rubbers on my forehand and fairly firm, grippy Euro/Jap rubbers on my backhand. I was thinking a softer Neo H3 (does DHS make a 38 degree Neo H3?) on my FH and maybe some Coppa Platin or Hammond Pro Beta on my BH... but I don't know.
Any ideas/suggestions?
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rokphish
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 3:15am |
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certainly not on the softer neo... you should use at least 40 or 41 on the blade otherwise it'll be too soft...
speed90 is soft and fast blade. use med hard-hard rubber on it. i would recommend you to lightly seal it before using it. and do think of me first when you decide to sell this blade... |
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instagram: rokphishtt
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 3:22am |
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I usually use 40 degree Neo H3 (actually, currently using 40 degree Neo H2 on my Fuga), but I heard that hard rubbers weren't as good on one-plies. But I trust you, so I'll give it a shot.
Regarding me selling it... You'll be the first to know, but don't hold your breath.
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rokphish
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:09am |
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yeah, certainly use your 40 h2 first...
i'm a good breath holder for these blades... hehehe... |
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instagram: rokphishtt
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stiltt
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Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1029 |
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:15am |
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hey rok he only said you'll be the 1st to know it does not mean the 2nd won't buy it :)
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:17am |
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Honestly, I don't know if I'll ever even play it. I'd sooner chop of the hand of Michelangelo's "David" and smack a ping pong ball around with it than possibly harm such a beautiful piece of wood...
I'm scared!
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stiltt
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:25am |
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I agree about smelling and touching the balde. However I do not mean to be rude but
"a beautiful blade has to be played the same way that..."
the first who can successflly finish that statement wins 3 slightly used trainig balls; shipping is on me.
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Beer Belly
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:39am |
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Darker 90 + Tenergy 05 was heaven for me back when I was a two-wing looper!
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stiltt
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:41am |
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kelvinyoong
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 10:22am |
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Medium hard rubbers work best on 1 ply hinoki blades.
BTW how does the quality of the Darker 90 compare to the custom American Hinoki blades? If you have a one to compare or anyone else. Can you do a comparison once you are done smelling the blade?  Also how does the smell compare to the Senkoh blade? |
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Andrzej Grubba AN
Sriver 2.1 Sriver 1.9 |
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rick_ys_ho
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 3:55pm |
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The TT coach I know has H3 Prov on her Darker SPD 90 as FH rubber. However she does not recommend this setup to everyone, unless you have excellent TT skills, because it is too fast to control. Personally I tried it, did not like the feeling when looping. She recommended one of her students have JO platin max as his FH on Darker SPD 90.
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JimT
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:26pm |
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Anton,
don't forget to seal it - that's the must. Then I very much recommend you put a thick edge tape on it. I used regular edge tape first, and then on top of it I put 1mm thick foam edge tape I bought from Paddle Palace (Dr.N brand, 9 mm wide). Isn't a beauty though? And it is balanced so perfectly - which is why I now play mostly with it and not with my WRC-10. Don't worry - you are allowed to play with it  And med-hard rubbers a-la Tenergy or Outlaw will go just fine with it. Same for harder tacky Chinese stuff like 729 Transcend SP or old style Skyline/Hurricane. I tried softer rubbers on it too - Sriver FX, Mark V-30 - and it was extremely controllable yet fast enough, but not a huge kick if you know what I mean. Still an option, I think... |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:26pm |
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I haven't ever had a Senkoh, but I do have a couple custom blades from American Hinoki. In the case of Darker, the Speed 90 obviously has a slightly better finish simply because it's made by a blade company with many tools and techniques not available to the guy making stuff out of his home. The Speed 90 wood is Kiso Hinoki with an exceptional grain. The wood at American Hinoki is not Kiso--I purchased a POC (very close relative to Kiso Hinoki) and a WRC (slightly more distant relative, but still fairly closely related). The grain of the AH blades are very nice, too. Not quite as tight, but still impressive and very straight.
In terms of construction, I would say that the Darker Speed 90 is a bit superior just due to where it came from. However, it is also $180 after shipping; whereas, the AH blade is $75. I think the AH blade is more than adequate for anyone who wants a custom made one-ply. It is worth every penny, and probably a bit more. The Darker Speed 90 is more for the connoisseur of one-plies who doesn't mind spending a great deal more (over twice as much). The main place I think the Darker outshines the AH blade in terms of construction is in the weight. My AH blades weigh 95g and 100g. The Darker Hinoki Shake Speed 90 weighs 87g.
In terms of play, I haven't yet used the Speed 90. I've only used my 10mm WRC from AH. It's a beast, but soooo much fun. I imagine the Speed 90 will be a bit slower, as it's only 9mm. Perhaps I'll post more about the differences in play later.
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JimT
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 4:30pm |
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Allow me to disagree with you just a bit there. My DS90 is 86 g and my WRC-10 is 89 g - so weight is basically the same. But balance! oh there's the rub. Although balance of my WRC-9 is virtually as good as DS90 but only because Kevin made a slightly smaller face (1-2 mm shorter and narrower than DS90 dimensions). |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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kelvinyoong
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 6:46pm |
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Sorry Anton. Confused you with another forum member. Must try not to post past midnight.
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Andrzej Grubba AN
Sriver 2.1 Sriver 1.9 |
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LOOPMEISTER
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Posted: 01/29/2010 at 8:59pm |
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Pics!
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tdragon
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 1:32am |
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tomas.gt
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 5:53am |
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anton, keep this blade as a collection item. THis is my best advice. I can share my thought via PM if you want
rubbers - neo 39 |
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Kokutaku Bishu no.1 ST - H3N red , BTfly Spinart 2.1 black
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LOOPMEISTER
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 11:00am |
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Unfortunately, I don't have any 1-plys. One day I will get one. The best part of this forum is when people put up pictures of their equipment, especially when its "the straightest, tightest grain I've ever seen on a Hinoki blade"! 
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 11:20am |
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Don't get too excited. The straightest, tightest grain I've ever seen might not be comparable to the straightest, tightest grain you've ever seen.
I don't have a camera, but I hope to purchase one soon. In the meantime, I'll see if my iPhone can capture a pic that does the blade justice. Then, I'll see if I'm smart enough to figure out how to post pics on this thread...
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metallikviper
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 12:35pm |
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Is there a reason why 1-ply Hinoki blades are more common to Pen holders than Shake handers? What is so special about 1-ply Hinoki that can't be achieved with 5 or 7 ply blades. Is it just a feel thing? I've never played with anything remotely close to Hinoki so I don't understand.
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Nittaku Vioncello FL
FH: Donic Acuda S2 Max BH: TSP P1-R 1.1mm |
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saif
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 12:51pm |
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+1
Yeah, what's the fuzz about those 1 ply hinokis?
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TBS FH & BH: T05fx
Tibhar Samsonov Alpha FH: Grip-S Europe BH: Rakza7 soft Victas Koji Matsushita FH: Tenergy 80 BH: Feint long III https://www.facebook.com/groups/5439549367/ |
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JimT
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 1:56pm |
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So how do you expect us to explain then? The reason why SH rarely use 1-plys is that 1-plys are very thick 9-10 mm, and this can be uncomfortable for a Sh grip. Much easier for a J-pen or even a C-pen holder. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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joytide
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Posted: 01/30/2010 at 4:22pm |
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I play Nittaku Reforma on my BH and it is a non tacky rubber but still very spinny and fast. Check it out!
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Blade: Nittaku Violin
FH: Juic Air Condle BH: Donic Baracuda |
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 02/01/2010 at 3:29pm |
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I'll give it a try, but YMMV:
I guess the two primary things that contribute to the "special-ness" of one-ply hinoki blades are: 1) As you guessed, the feel is unbeatable. It's like the blade is wired to my nervous system as soon as I pick it up. 2) The dynamics of the blade are extremely impressive. Good in the short game as nearly any other blade, and as fast and as powerful as probably any other blade out there, as well. (Looping with the blades is slightly more difficult due to the stiffness, but only slightly. However, if you like to drive/smash, then I don't think there is a better blade out there for it. It's like hitting the ball with a baseball bat.)
The only drawbacks are: 1) Most are 9mm thick, some are 10mm. This thickness, when added to the thickness of two sheets of rubber, can be uncomfortable for some people. I found I adapted rather quickly, but I have pretty big hands. Maybe other people don't like it. 2) As stated, these blades are very, very fast. In candor, I probably shouldn't be playing with one at my level.
 They require very good technique--although, I will say that, IMHO, they offer better control than any other blade of the same speed. |
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BMonkey
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Posted: 02/01/2010 at 3:46pm |
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My biggest problem (and something I am noticing as my taste in blades matures) is with the thickness of the blade in regards to feeling. Thick blades have too little feeling in soft touches. When you are a smashing or power looping it feels great and you get a nice solid touch sent to your hand but when you are trying to soft loop underspin or gently drop shot a dead serve you are pretty much flying blind (which is fine if you have perfect technique hardwired into your muscles) because the feeling isn't there. The other thing I don't particularly care for is the dwell time. Hinoki is prized for its 'springy' quality, but I feel that the spring rate is too high in this case versus artifical fiber blades. I think that if non tensor rubbers were used on the Speed 90 it might not be as much of an issue but tensor springiness plus Hinoki springiness equals no dwell time your hand better move like lightning before the ball is gone.
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metallikviper
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Posted: 02/01/2010 at 4:17pm |
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Thanks for the input.
@Anton: I know you have owned 2 other 1-ply Hinoki's before you bought the DS 90 from AH. Which wood was the closest to the DS 90, the POC or the WRC and in what thickness? I would love to try one before I spend some serious cash. My only experience is with a friends' Kokataku J-Pen which I have no idea how to judge (felt pretty good though). |
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Nittaku Vioncello FL
FH: Donic Acuda S2 Max BH: TSP P1-R 1.1mm |
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 02/01/2010 at 4:22pm |
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Thanks for adding your input, BMonkey. It's probably a great deal more valid than my own since you've used your Speed 90 for a while and are likely a higher level player than myself.
I'm basing my experience on playing with my 10mm WRC blade and my 9mm POC blade from American Hinoki. I haven't yet actually used my Darker Speed 90, as I'm waiting for some rubber. I guess I should have also added the caveat that, from what Kevin at AH was saying, "Stiffness goes up by the square of the thickness. So a small increase in thickness results in a large increase in stiffness. So say you go from 9mm to 10mm (100/81= 1.23) stiffness goes up 23%." So, speed, flex, etc, is a function of the thickness of the blade. Therefore, experiences will vary based on blade width (and in the case of AH, the species of wood used). Regarding speed, all I know is that my 10mm WRC is an absolute beast. My Speed 90 may very well be noticeably slower.
In terms of short game, I'm actually a bad person to ask. I'd rather flick than push, I'd rather loop than flick, I'd rather drive than loop, and I'd rather smash than drive. In short, for better or for worse I'm a compulsively offensive player. So, the subtleties of the short game may be lost on me, based both on my proclivities and my skill level. However, I've felt that the POC and WRC one-plies I've used are suitable enough for me.
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Anton Chigurh
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Posted: 02/01/2010 at 4:29pm |
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In terms of classification, the POC (Port Orford Cedar) is the closer relative to Kiso Hinoki (the wood used in the Speed 90). In fact, POC is often shipped to Japan and sold as Hinoki. However, POC is much heavier and therefore it's difficult to walk away with a blade under 100 grams. Therefore, I would suggest the WRC (Western Red Cedar). It's a relative of Kiso Hinoki too, just not quite as closely related as the POC. You could probably get one from AH, with a natural cork handle, for 85-90 grams, maybe(?). I would definitely suggest the WRC.
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chu_bun
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Posted: 02/02/2010 at 2:08am |
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I think 1-ply is good when you are on the offensive and in control. But it's not so good when you are getting punched, and try to slow things down. For example, against players with better offensive skill, I'll try to vary the speed and the spin, and hope they make mistake. But with a 1-ply once I start swinging, or when the ball gets to a certain speed, the beast just comes alive and becomes so bouncy, then I end up playing into the opponent speedy frenzy game. When I was trying a 1-ply, I often blown out weaker or even some players at my level, but then I got blown out even worse by stronger players.
In short, I think a multi-ply is more versatile whereas a 1-ply is more for an all out attacking style (ala Ryu seung Min). |
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Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.
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rokphish wrote: