Permanent Tuning

bravefest wrote: Call it what you want, but it's still cheating.  You're only lying to yourself and you're pathetic if you can't admit to what you're doing. Adapt to a new setup or admit that you're cheating.  There's no third option.

So I'm cheating.  So what?  And if I never said I tune, you would never know either.  Nor would I get caught at official tournies.

The funny thing is, many people say, for example, "No rubber will make you better. It's all about technique!" This is frequently recited in Tenergy conversations. Often, the same people who say that equipment doesn't matter and technique is the only thing that does matter will also say that people who speed glue or boost are cheating because it gives them an unfair advantage. If we're speaking purely of effect, then both statements cannot be true. Either equipment does make a significant difference in performance, or those who boost or speed glue are not cheating because they get no advantage.

In summary: If equipment truly doesn't matter, then boosters/speed gluers get no advantage and therefore they aren't cheating. But if equipment does matter then boosters/speed gluers do have an unfair advantage.

HOWEVER, we can all agree that new rubbers look to recreate the speed glue feeling. While none yet do it perfectly, some do it better than others. Therefore, those who can afford the rubbers that have more of the speed glue effect will have an unfair advantage over those who cannot afford the expensive stuff. Are they cheating? Well, technically no, since there is no rule handed down to us from on high.

But we all surely realize that the "rules handed down from on high" are not from "on high" at all. They're written and decided upon by people, who can be prone to mistakes and/or intentional deviance for some nefarious outcome. I don't follow rules because "someone said so". I follow rules if I can see their value, they appear reasonable, I respect the governing body who created the rule, etc, etc.

A line in the movie Braveheart goes something like, "History was written by those who have hanged heroes." People are the ultimate deciders. "Cheating" is a matter of perspective. Hurl accusations of "moral relativism" all you want; the fact is, to make a blanket statement and call someone a "cheater" because they choose to disobey a rule simply demonstrates a lack of ability to identify any of the subtleties in this situation.

And in case anyone is wondering... No, I don't currently boost. But if I ever feel the need to then I will without hesitation, and I won't feel bad for even a second.

bravefest wrote: You can't honestly think that applies to a game like table tennis.  I mean if you're going to take that attitude, why should I bother playing you at all? I serve, you screw up the return me:  "1-0" you: "Nope, it was my point." You're just being a 'justified rebel' right? Seriously though, if you're going to be an apologetic for cheating, then I would never want to play you as you have zero integrity.

Well, fortunately for my feelings your evaluations of my character carry absolutely no weight... but not because we disagree, or because I "don't like" you (which is not the case) but simply because I see from most of your statements that you either inherently lack the ability to sort through the issue with any degree of discernment, or you are just intentionally being obtuse. In either case, such a disposition inclines me to disregard your opinions. Sorry if that appears hurtful or rude. I don't mean for it to, I'm just being honest.

EDIT: In addition, in this argument (above) you demonstrate a pretty explicit example of a "slippery slope" fallacy of logic.

Tinykin_2 wrote: Anton Chigurh wrote: The funny thing is, many people say, for example, "No rubber will make you better. It's all about technique!" This is frequently recited in Tenergy conversations. Often, the same people who say that equipment doesn't matter and technique is the only thing that does matter will also say that people who speed glue or boost are cheating because it gives them an unfair advantage. If we're speaking purely of effect, then both statements cannot be true. Either equipment does make a significant difference in performance, or those who boost or speed glue are not cheating because they get no advantage. In summary: If equipment truly doesn't matter, then boosters/speed gluers get no advantage and therefore they aren't cheating. But if equipment does matter then boosters/speed gluers do have an unfair advantage. HOWEVER, we can all agree that new rubbers look to recreate the speed glue feeling. While none yet do it perfectly, some do it better than others. Therefore, those who can afford the rubbers that have more of the speed glue effect will have an unfair advantage over those who cannot afford the expensive stuff. Are they cheating? Well, technically no, since there is no rule handed down to us from on high. But we all surely realize that the "rules handed down from on high" are not from "on high" at all. They're written and decided upon by people, who can be prone to mistakes and/or intentional deviance for some nefarious outcome. I don't follow rules because "someone said so". I follow rules if I can see their value, they appear reasonable, I respect the governing body who created the rule, etc, etc. A line in the movie Braveheart goes something like, "History was written by those who have hanged heroes." People are the ultimate deciders. "Cheating" is a matter of perspective. Hurl accusations of "moral relativism" all you want; the fact is, to make a blanket statement and call someone a "cheater" because they choose to disobey a rule simply demonstrates a lack of ability to identify any of the subtleties in this situation. And in case anyone is wondering... No, I don't currently boost. But if I ever feel the need to then I will without hesitation, and I won't feel bad for even a second.   That's really deep. Well done. Can you comment further on unfair advantage regarding finance. We in the west are generally able to afford the Tenergy etc. Those in poorer East European and Asian countries generally can't. So in the past they speed glued their cheap Chinese stuff. So does the 'no-boosting' rule give an unfair advantage to players from Western countries?

I'm glad you appreciate the post.

I am tempted to comment further on what you suggested, but I'm afraid it could spiral out into many tangents. Perhaps you could start a separate thread and pose that question to the general forum...? I think it could be interesting and I'd love to comment.

For now, the main thing I was trying to do was call into question these "black-and-white" accusations of "cheating" made against those who boost/tune/speed glue.

I'm trying to do this by making two points:

1) If boosting is "cheating" because it gives someone an unfair advantage, then when playing against an opponent of equal skill, but using a rubber that better replicates the "speed glue effect", it must be questioned as to whether it's "cheating", as well.

2) If boosting is "cheating" because some governing body says so, then we must acknowledge that these rules are made by people who have their own agendas, which do not necessarily align with our best interests or desires. In turn, we must decide if there is ever a justified reason to rebel against a particular governing body, or if we must always abide by everything they say without exception, like good little doggies.

I don't really have an "answer". I was trying to be more philosophical in my approach, and as we all know, philosophy isn't necessarily about generating answers. Rather, philosophy is often about generating better questions. When is someone a "cheater" and when are they simply defying an arbitrary and irrational human-made rule?

A rule designed to simultaneously line the pockets of the rubber manufacturers and cripple classic chinese rubbers is hardly arbitrary.

Stuff like baby oil, lamp oil, and what others have mentioned works.  Not as good as high quality tuner but it works.  Just remember, you can only tune a rubber twice and its done after that...

Anton Chigurh wrote: Tinykin_2 wrote: Anton Chigurh wrote: The funny thing is, many people say, for example, "No rubber will make you better. It's all about technique!" This is frequently recited in Tenergy conversations. Often, the same people who say that equipment doesn't matter and technique is the only thing that does matter will also say that people who speed glue or boost are cheating because it gives them an unfair advantage. If we're speaking purely of effect, then both statements cannot be true. Either equipment does make a significant difference in performance, or those who boost or speed glue are not cheating because they get no advantage. In summary: If equipment truly doesn't matter, then boosters/speed gluers get no advantage and therefore they aren't cheating. But if equipment does matter then boosters/speed gluers do have an unfair advantage. HOWEVER, we can all agree that new rubbers look to recreate the speed glue feeling. While none yet do it perfectly, some do it better than others. Therefore, those who can afford the rubbers that have more of the speed glue effect will have an unfair advantage over those who cannot afford the expensive stuff. Are they cheating? Well, technically no, since there is no rule handed down to us from on high. But we all surely realize that the "rules handed down from on high" are not from "on high" at all. They're written and decided upon by people, who can be prone to mistakes and/or intentional deviance for some nefarious outcome. I don't follow rules because "someone said so". I follow rules if I can see their value, they appear reasonable, I respect the governing body who created the rule, etc, etc. A line in the movie Braveheart goes something like, "History was written by those who have hanged heroes." People are the ultimate deciders. "Cheating" is a matter of perspective. Hurl accusations of "moral relativism" all you want; the fact is, to make a blanket statement and call someone a "cheater" because they choose to disobey a rule simply demonstrates a lack of ability to identify any of the subtleties in this situation. And in case anyone is wondering... No, I don't currently boost. But if I ever feel the need to then I will without hesitation, and I won't feel bad for even a second.   That's really deep. Well done. Can you comment further on unfair advantage regarding finance. We in the west are generally able to afford the Tenergy etc. Those in poorer East European and Asian countries generally can't. So in the past they speed glued their cheap Chinese stuff. So does the 'no-boosting' rule give an unfair advantage to players from Western countries? I'm glad you appreciate the post. I am tempted to comment further on what you suggested, but I'm afraid it could spiral out into many tangents. Perhaps you could start a separate thread and pose that question to the general forum...? I think it could be interesting and I'd love to comment. For now, the main thing I was trying to do was call into question these "black-and-white" accusations of "cheating" made against those who boost/tune/speed glue. I'm trying to do this by making two points: 1) If boosting is "cheating" because it gives someone an unfair advantage, then when playing against an opponent of equal skill, but using a rubber that better replicates the "speed glue effect", it must be questioned as to whether it's "cheating", as well. 2) If boosting is "cheating" because some governing body says so, then we must acknowledge that these rules are made by people who have their own agendas, which do not necessarily align with our best interests or desires. In turn, we must decide if there is ever a justified reason to rebel against a particular governing body, or if we must always abide by everything they say without exception, like good little doggies. I don't really have an "answer". I was trying to be more philosophical in my approach, and as we all know, philosophy isn't necessarily about generating answers. Rather, philosophy is often about generating better questions. When is someone a "cheater" and when are they simply defying an arbitrary and irrational human-made rule?

I hope you realize the foolishness of your argument.  I mean, if you're going to call me obtuse because I present a perfectly logical and valid point: cheating is cheating no matter what you call it or how you personally feel about it then YOU are the one being obtuse.

If you still can't understand this, let me give you yet ANOTHER example and see if you have the brains to follow this one:

Possession of cocaine is illegal in the United States.  If you are in possession of cocaine, you are breaking the law.  It's that simple.  It doesn't matter how you feel about it, it doesn't matter if cocaine is cheaper than another substitute to f**k you up like alcohol or if you think the government is just trying to get their cut from the liquor lobby since they don't gain campaign contributions from the drug dealers, you're still breaking the law.

There.  Did I dumb it up enough for you or do you need more?

Anton Chigurh wrote: bravefest wrote: You can't honestly think that applies to a game like table tennis.  I mean if you're going to take that attitude, why should I bother playing you at all? I serve, you screw up the return me:  "1-0" you: "Nope, it was my point." You're just being a 'justified rebel' right? Seriously though, if you're going to be an apologetic for cheating, then I would never want to play you as you have zero integrity. Well, fortunately for my feelings your evaluations of my character carry absolutely no weight... but not because we disagree, or because I "don't like" you (which is not the case) but simply because I see from most of your statements that you either inherently lack the ability to sort through the issue with any degree of discernment, or you are just intentionally being obtuse. In either case, such a disposition inclines me to disregard your opinions. Sorry if that appears hurtful or rude. I don't mean for it to, I'm just being honest. EDIT: In addition, in this argument (above) you demonstrate a pretty explicit example of a "slippery slope" fallacy of logic.

By the way, you may want to reread your logical fallacies there before you pretend you're a philosopher.  My example is not a slippery slope.  A slippery slope would be:

If we allow one person to cheat by using speed glue, then other people are going to start cheating as well.

If anything, my argument illustrates a defective induction as my point was, 'if you're going to cheat in any way, how can I be sure you won't cheat in every way?'.  It is an informal fallacy, but the point is still valid.

bravefest wrote: I hope you realize the foolishness of your argument.  I mean, if you're going to call me obtuse because I present a perfectly logical and valid point: cheating is cheating no matter what you call it or how you personally feel about it then YOU are the one being obtuse.

I give up. I can see I haven't even made a dent. Good luck in your world of black-and-white absolutes. Send all of us here in reality a postcard from time to time to let us know how you're doing. We'll be hanging out under the trees of subtlety that cast interesting shades of gray.

bravefest wrote: If you still can't understand this, let me give you yet ANOTHER example and see if you have the brains to follow this one: Possession of cocaine is illegal in the United States.  If you are in possession of cocaine, you are breaking the law.  It's that simple.  It doesn't matter how you feel about it, it doesn't matter if cocaine is cheaper than another substitute to f**k you up like alcohol or if you think the government is just trying to get their cut from the liquor lobby since they don't gain campaign contributions from the drug dealers, you're still breaking the law. There.  Did I dumb it up enough for you or do you need more?

No, I don't need more... don't worry, your argument is plenty dumb.

Good evening.

logic rules the world.

bravefest wrote: Anton Chigurh wrote: bravefest wrote: I hope you realize the foolishness of your argument.  I mean, if you're going to call me obtuse because I present a perfectly logical and valid point: cheating is cheating no matter what you call it or how you personally feel about it then YOU are the one being obtuse. I give up. I can see I haven't even made a dent. Good luck in your world of black-and-white absolutes. Send all of us here in reality a postcard from time to time to let us know how you're doing. We'll be hanging out under the trees of subtlety that cast interesting shades of gray. bravefest wrote: If you still can't understand this, let me give you yet ANOTHER example and see if you have the brains to follow this one: Possession of cocaine is illegal in the United States.  If you are in possession of cocaine, you are breaking the law.  It's that simple.  It doesn't matter how you feel about it, it doesn't matter if cocaine is cheaper than another substitute to f**k you up like alcohol or if you think the government is just trying to get their cut from the liquor lobby since they don't gain campaign contributions from the drug dealers, you're still breaking the law. There.  Did I dumb it up enough for you or do you need more? No, I don't need more... don't worry, your argument is plenty dumb. Good evening. nice Ad hominem argument there and straw man argument.  Full of fallacies tonight from you I see.  Anyway, I'm finished arguing against you.  If and when you do decide to cheat - you should let everyone else you're playing know what you're doing before every game.

I fear I've made a terrible mistake introducing you to the "logical fallacies" page of Wikipedia. You appear to me as a child who learned his first few words but now applies them to everything, irrespective of category or subject. Kinda cute, I suppose.

Bravefest, do you have proof that says Ma Long's rubber is not tuned/boosted? 

hungga wrote: Bravefest, do you have proof that says Ma Long's rubber is not tuned/boosted?

IT IS BOOSTED!!! WITH HAIFU OIL!!!

glanden.zheng wrote: hungga wrote: Bravefest, do you have proof that says Ma Long's rubber is not tuned/boosted?  IT IS BOOSTED!!! WITH HAIFU OIL!!!

I'm hoping that he used it plain as in not boosted, judging from his menacing FH strokes, but even people now talk about boosting Tenergy. I did tried DHS Neo TG3 commercial and found it's fast enough.

I got my hand on Haifu speed Blue Whale II glue and it kind of working but I think it's fake or low quality one as I can't removed the glue build up even applying a layer to somehow soften the residue, it won't come off that easy. That aside, I can't play with my Solcion without applying new layers. It felt better than using Nittaku Finezip glue. Now it's practically useless and I bought a new T64 just to replace it and escape the habit of tuning and ruining the rubber in a quick way. 

IMO, permanent tuning is not possible.

beeray1 wrote: you can tune over and over with most stuff... but Ohh-G has a special tune you can only do twice. You can use paraffin or lamp or whatever multiple times to achieve the effect again.

Wow!!! TELL ME MORE!!!