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Playing a chopper

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/26/2009 at 8:04am
I figured something out after watching some women's matches against choppers.

Instead of going for an all out loop attack, trying to loop their shorter chops, which I find personally I can miss the ball fairly often if it's one of those that hits the table and then kinda dies in midair and stops moving forward, is to angle the racket way back like going for a push, but put a forehand type swing on it, leaving the racket wide open to get a consistent, controllable faster return between a loop and a push for added variety. Worked well against long pips and inverted chops and pushes on forehand and backhand for me.

Someone probably said this somewhere in the 150+ posts, but yeah, that's my new nugget of playing wisdom. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/08/2009 at 8:28pm
Of course it isn't "easy" to play a chopper!

I would serve with about 75% spin as usual, because if they're good, they will return most all your high spin serves anyway, as you know.

So, get your serve in, then after they (chopper) get into their groove, they will prob push it back.
Start looping away, or kill it if it's high enough.

Loop wide to the backhand, then when-if they return it, with chop, drop shot it to the opposite side as wide as possible.

You know the scenario.
         
 
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-Spinny verywell controlled stuff forehand

-long pips or inverted or med. pips on backhand



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyt70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/28/2009 at 11:40pm
thanks you sunny for innfo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpangfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2009 at 12:17am
to play against a chopper, first you must be able to have stable loop attack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iskallt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2009 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by normal normal wrote:

Against a chopper it's not as difficult as you think.You will need good controll.You play a backspin service (1) he will chop according to his style you chop back full power (3) preferred with your backhand short on the middle he will have to chop back and now you can finish wit either a powerfull forehand loop or a backhand loop (5) what you have achieved in this setup is to gain control of the spin so he cannot vary it.Because you are now familiar with the amount of spin you can now adjust your loop power to it.  


Okay, but what if he pushes his return out low and fast in your forehand, so you're forced to loop a slow topspin?

The only thing I can add on this discussion since almost everything has been said, is that you should let him move in depth. Sometimes don't attack yourself full power/topspin, just do a nice, slow loop or another hit so the ball goes short and the speed changes. Choppers have huge problems with working in depth (aka back and forth at the table) and rhythm changes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danova Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2009 at 1:06pm
Try looping into the middle of the table, this way he can not get an angle on his return, choppers are always weakest when it comes into their body.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2009 at 3:06pm
Absolutely true.
If you have the control and the touch
and experience to keep pressing to
the middle of the chopper,
or any player in fact, is verygood.
-Blade

-Spinny verywell controlled stuff forehand

-long pips or inverted or med. pips on backhand



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stevetaylor6969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2009 at 10:31am
its hard work playing these guys, some struggle with the slower higher loop
with very heavy topspin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabletennisgod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2010 at 8:33pm
There are actually several types of choppers believe it or not. In asia, you generally see choppers who are defensive in the backhand but can counter strongly when the opprotunity presents itself. This is because most of them start out as attackers early on, develop a good forehand, and then switch to being a chopper. Then, there's the completely defensive chopper that plays the orthodox chopping style. Strategy varies with both types. Against the totally defensive choppers, I like to take my time against them, knowing that they won't counter attack and if they do, it will be weak. I'm not afraid to loop it high, slow, and spinny to their backhand as that move makes the choppers  very uncomfortable. Against the attacking choppers though, it is a lot harder in my opinion, since there is always the constant threat of a counter attack. If you watch Joo se Hyuk play, when the ball is rather high, he will make a strong counter attack.
so easy evena noob can do it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omega740 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2010 at 11:55pm
It can be pretty rough against a good chopper.  Particularly if you don't play them to often.  HERE is a pretty good example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2010 at 2:28pm
Table Tennis Tactics Cheat Sheet
By PongWorld.com

Tactics Against All Opponents

     Versus all styles of opponents: 1) Vary spin and strokes 

         and 2) place ball outside power zones



 
 
                      


Edited by longreachlooper - 10/23/2010 at 10:30am
-Blade

-Spinny verywell controlled stuff forehand

-long pips or inverted or med. pips on backhand



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agustin280fer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2010 at 9:00pm
tip for playing against choppers. top spin once and chop once, so the chopper will have to move forward all the time and he will get tired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a23096713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2010 at 9:59pm

I don't always recommend the strategy of loop once and push once strategy. Technically might work well with very defensive chopper, but offensive chopper love to run forward to do power loop when they see the push coming. It actually more powerful as they uses the distant to accelerate more power forward. Especially once the chopper knows that you gonna be pushing most of the shot. They simply won't move back right away, and they WILL start attacking.

A better strategy is adding pushs within loops to cause surprises. That is actually what you need to win against a chopper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2010 at 10:37pm
Move the chopper around, add side-spin to your top-spin loops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2010 at 3:12am
The chopper has to be very good to chop balls and always keep them low.
I like to hit some higher or short balls quickly off the bounce. It changes the rhythm and I can hit the ball flatter and at wider angles so the horizontal speed is higher and the ball bounce height lower resulting in a ball that is harder to get to.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2010 at 9:22pm
I've consistently lost to one player with a penhold grip who can push with sidespin, underspin, and a combination of both all day long, always moving the ball and keeping every shot low and short. Looping is out of the question because his shots will bounce twice before they are even near the edge of the table. He is in no hurry to be aggressive and doesn't use his push to set up his own loops, but basically waits for me to lose my patience or my concentration and lose the point.

Pushing exchanges with this guy is mentally draining. Most of the time, I end up hitting the ball into the net as a result of his backspin, despite having my blade completely opened. I'm not kidding, 180 degrees, facing straight up, and still I dump it into the net. There are some nice marks on the table from my blade because that's just how low I have to position the blade to get under his shots.

I don't have the FH or BH flicks/flips in my arsenal yet. Are they my only answers against this guy?

It seems my opponent's style is very effective, so why don't most pros play this way, but opt for the looping attacking style instead? Why is it that even pro choppers don't play this way---keeping their shots low and short? How would a pro handle this guy's game, using flicks or drop shots? For the sake of discussion, let's assume that the pro does not immediately put this guy on the defensive with the serve or return.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2010 at 2:42am
Push fast and deep? Most player's struggle to return such a push as short as you describe. As for the pro's, I'm sure they would play this short game with him untill he made one that was slightly to high and then they would open up against that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2010 at 9:24am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I've consistently lost to one player with a penhold grip who can push with sidespin, underspin, and a combination of both all day long, always moving the ball and keeping every shot low and short. Looping is out of the question because his shots will bounce twice before they are even near the edge of the table. He is in no hurry to be aggressive and doesn't use his push to set up his own loops, but basically waits for me to lose my patience or my concentration and lose the point.


About a year ago I ran into this style for the first time. Short pips with thin sponge player, about US1700 or so. It was the first time I've ever played anyone who could return anything my low-intermediate level could dish out in a safe manner. I tried mixing underspin amounts, placement, but he simply could out-push me without giving me any options to open up the point.

It was the most humbling loss of that tournament, I have never felt so "powerless" to dictate control of a point. The only upside was that he beat the eventual tourney winner, a high 1900's mid distance topspinner. In that match however, he was forced to use offense and mixed the low safe pushes with classic CPEN fast attack/smashes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TBS9x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2010 at 9:56am
Just last saturday in the final of a competition I lost to a chopper, it was an old man but he is still quite agile and used to play in Swedish Elite's League at his youth so his experience is way more than mine. He chops mainly backhand, he chops more with smooth side actually, sometimes switches and does not attack at all, only push and chop. Therefore though I'm also a chopper I have to play the attacking role and did all my best, mixing slow loops with fast one, push short, deep anything but the only thing that I seemed to forgot is to attack to his elbow. Remember that guys! It's always easier to chop back on the side but chopping from the middle is a different story and if you could force choppers to move out of there comfort zone, you might as well as launch an all out offensive attack to both wings rapidly and if you are patient enough and have good spin reading skills then winning is only a matter of time. I did not succeed because I lacked a bit patient, he was twiddling and it was my 7th match of the day so I ran flat out of gas :D 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2010 at 10:26am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I've consistently lost to one player with a penhold grip who can push with sidespin, underspin, and a combination of both all day long, always moving the ball and keeping every shot low and short. Looping is out of the question because his shots will bounce twice before they are even near the edge of the table. He is in no hurry to be aggressive and doesn't use his push to set up his own loops, but basically waits for me to lose my patience or my concentration and lose the point.

Pushing exchanges with this guy is mentally draining. Most of the time, I end up hitting the ball into the net as a result of his backspin, despite having my blade completely opened. I'm not kidding, 180 degrees, facing straight up, and still I dump it into the net. There are some nice marks on the table from my blade because that's just how low I have to position the blade to get under his shots.

I don't have the FH or BH flicks/flips in my arsenal yet. Are they my only answers against this guy?

It seems my opponent's style is very effective, so why don't most pros play this way, but opt for the looping attacking style instead? Why is it that even pro choppers don't play this way---keeping their shots low and short? How would a pro handle this guy's game, using flicks or drop shots? For the sake of discussion, let's assume that the pro does not immediately put this guy on the defensive with the serve or return.

Thanks.
 
well, I am no chopper, but when facing two-winged looper who likes to play from the mid-distance and is better attacker than me, this is effective tactics by which you can win match. just keeping the ball short, low, and at the center of the table, with pushes and chops. it gives you great position to be first to attack. as I play most of the game close to the table, this is my teritory, even if chopping isn't. how to play against it? hard Big smile against me no such problem because I am not skilled enough, but against skilled guy...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/04/2010 at 11:31am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

...he simply could out-push me without giving me any options to open up the point.
It was the most humbling loss of that tournament, I have never felt so "powerless" to dictate control of a point....


Humbling, boy, you got that right. I thought I was more advanced than this guy because I can chop, loop, and drive, but he can only push. The problem is he has mastered the push. Perhaps he possesses a full arsenal as well, but he certainly didn't have to use his other weapons to defeat me. In a way, I think it's common to associate the away-from-the-table driving and looping style to advanced level play, because that's how the pros play. *Scoff* "Pusher, I play like the pros, so I'm better than you. Ha!Cool" I couldn't have been more wrong. From experience, however, I now feel that it's much easier to play someone who plays the long game and the short game is much more difficult to deal with or master.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a23096713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2010 at 12:03am
For those who got problem with low pushes. I  just wondering, have you guys force to flip everything over? usually when the situation is like that, there are no solution or immediate respond. I tend to start to do risky shots that is not what I am confidently at.

However, despite the fact that  might lost some points because of the risks. Once you get some shots in, the opponent will have greater mental stress. I use that technique on varies players and it tend to give myself some time to rethink strategies.

For example, I am a chopper. A very defensive one that I must admit. Some of the player started to serve long and fast no-spin/top spin down the line. He got away with 2 points. After I finished my serve, I control loop the very first serve and he counter block it down the line. I tried to loop in his second serve away again, I missed second time. I was down by 4 points. However, he started to serve short and carefully afterward, which it was easier for me to counter/chop and attack. I manage to catch up the missing 4 points and win the game.

Sometimes giving your opponent mental pressure is actually a really good way to stop your opponent's flow of the game. It works quite well in big tournaments where mental stress is higher.

That is why if you started to force flip some shots around, I really do believe you would have higher chance to get it back. Of course players can't get flip skill all the sudden, being a sitting duck is not much of an option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/05/2010 at 5:55am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Most of the time, I end up hitting the ball into the net as a result of his backspin, despite having my blade completely opened. I'm not kidding, 180 degrees, facing straight up, and still I dump it into the net.
 
just few comments. I suppose you have a fairly low throw rubber. I remember this problem with some good choppers with extreme spin when I was using lower throw rubber, it needed to be completely open to be able to return the ball, and in some cases it wasn't enough. with higher throw rubber it is much easier to return. but also, it is easier to push against such chop (over the table) then to re-chop, because push will catch less of incoming spin, so ball returns higher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/06/2010 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by friendship friendship wrote:

 
just few comments. I suppose you have a fairly low throw rubber. I remember this problem with some good choppers with extreme spin when I was using lower throw rubber, it needed to be completely open to be able to return the ball, and in some cases it wasn't enough. with higher throw rubber it is much easier to return. but also, it is easier to push against such chop (over the table) then to re-chop, because push will catch less of incoming spin, so ball returns higher
 
Thanks for pointing that out, buddy. I had just read another thread about the throw characteristic of paddles and thought it was interesting, but had not make the connection between it and how it affected my play until I read your reply.
 
Assuming I read the other thread correctly, the blade itself has relatively little influence, if any at all, on throw; it's the rubber and the sponge that determine the amount of throw?
 
I think I want to maximize the throw of my paddle then, because it's more intuitive for me to compensate for the extra arc in the trajectory of my shots by closing the blade than to compensate for incoming backspin by opening up the blade. That way I won't have any more trouble with those low pushes with a lot of backspin, right?
 
Now, do more tacky rubbers contribute to more throw, because they grip and pull on the ball more? What about sponge thickness and firmness? Thicker, softer sponge = more throw?
 
Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 7:59am
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Thanks for pointing that out, buddy. I had just read another thread about the throw characteristic of paddles and thought it was interesting, but had not make the connection between it and how it affected my play until I read your reply.
 
Assuming I read the other thread correctly, the blade itself has relatively little influence, if any at all, on throw; it's the rubber and the sponge that determine the amount of throw?
 
I think I want to maximize the throw of my paddle then, because it's more intuitive for me to compensate for the extra arc in the trajectory of my shots by closing the blade than to compensate for incoming backspin by opening up the blade. That way I won't have any more trouble with those low pushes with a lot of backspin, right?
 
Now, do more tacky rubbers contribute to more throw, because they grip and pull on the ball more? What about sponge thickness and firmness? Thicker, softer sponge = more throw?
 
Thanks.
 
yes. blade is of minor meaning regarding throw in comparison to rubber, although I have discovered that when youz deal with lower throw rubbers throw angle of blade has some meaning, since higher throw blades somehow mix better with lower throw rubbers, at least for my taste
 
with higher throw rubbers I can tell that how they behave against backspin balls it is huge difference (this is part where even higher throw rubber perform quite differently one to each other). low throw rubbers tend to give low arc direct ball over the net, while higher throw rubbers lift them with ease. with higher throw rubber the issue is to direct chops and pushes the right way so you dont pop them up, but you will never have an issue of lifting the backspin ball over the net, since this is no longer problem. but of course you need different (more closed) angle of paddle when chopping or pushing, which demands some training session to get used to
 
what is also easier to me with higher throw rubber is to play against lower flat (no spin) balls. simple direct hit often leads to hitting the net, while higher throw rubber works for you in a way that it lifts the ball with producing some arc just as needed. there is also the downside of higher throw rubbers: on higher balls execution attacks directness of lower throw rubbers is quality missing to higher throw ones, and you need to be more precise to avoid hitting too long
 
but all in all I personally prefer higher throw rubbers, as easier to loop against backspin and lifting the ball, and just as you said, to me personally it is easier to close the blade a little more than to compensate for incoming spin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 8:04am
regarding sponge thickness, I must admit I am not sure. it might be possible that thicker sponge will give some higher throw than thinner, but I think that this should be not big difference, it's the property of the sponge together with topsheet combination which defines its throw mostly I think
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a23096713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2010 at 10:06pm
I had tried a 1.5 and 1.9 version of the same rubber on my forehand. I can tell you, it depends on how hard you are hitting it. For the 1.5, because I loop it too hard sometimes that result in super low throw. The ball practically hit the blade and the ball leave the racket so fast that it didn't have any dwelling time. 1.9 doesn't have the same problem as it's difficult to cause the ball to re-bounce as fast. Also, you have to take into consideration of how soft your rubber is. The softer it is, I would not recommend thin rubber unless you are focusing on chopping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2010 at 7:56am
Originally posted by a23096713 a23096713 wrote:

I had tried a 1.5 and 1.9 version of the same rubber on my forehand. I can tell you, it depends on how hard you are hitting it. For the 1.5, because I loop it too hard sometimes that result in super low throw. The ball practically hit the blade and the ball leave the racket so fast that it didn't have any dwelling time. 1.9 doesn't have the same problem as it's difficult to cause the ball to re-bounce as fast. Also, you have to take into consideration of how soft your rubber is. The softer it is, I would not recommend thin rubber unless you are focusing on chopping.


could it be bottoming out?

regarding performing differently to various strokes regarding throw angle, I can agree from many angles. the power of shot and type of stroke make difference among throw angle of rubber. I mentioned somewhere that some 729 rubbers can produce very high throw on loops and at the same time middle or even lower throw on more direct shots like drive. meaning they are not linear at all regarding throw angle and type of shot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timo Boll2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2010 at 4:50pm
Well i`m going to tell you what i think.When a person plays a chop that means he don`t plays forehand because he`s afraid the ball will go out so he plays a chop to make sure the ball always goes in and he`s trying to put a real pressure on you so that you lose your patience and he`s knocking you of balance and he wins every time.You must hit a deep,hard shots-with a topspin.That way it will be very hard for him to hit the ball so his chops won`t work anymore and he will have to play forehands which obviously is his weak side.Now he`s got no weapons and that helps you very much.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Griffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2011 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by sunny sunny wrote:

Here are the details:

Handling defensive player (chopper):

 

  1. With a chopper the goal is to serve short and then do strong attack.
  2. Choppers are most vulnerable in the middle. When you serve short and attack at corners chopper can take long strides to reach it but in the middle he can not move fast and is forced to take it early by chopping or blocking.
  3. Sometimes change the strategy and fake attack and push it.
  4. Other way to handle, push short on backhand, attack deep into forehand or
  5.  Push short on forehand and then attack deep into backhand. Changing sides to defend on strong attack is very difficult especially when you push on forehand and attack deep on backhand. The shoulder blades hinder the chopper from stretching beyond a point making return difficult or impossible.
  6. If a chopper is successful in chopping the strong attack, push short and start again. His chop in short push will be weaker then his chop on your strong topspin. He has to rush to get the short push and would be in a motion to go near the table, your attack at that point would be more effective.
  7. If he has long pips then attacking soft topspins to find a loose ball to hit harder is effective too. With long pips the spin return is as strong as the spin you send to him.
  8. Varying spin from no spin to very spinny balls is crucial to keep the variations. But, when you do heavy spin, expect a heavy chop back and the vice versa.
  9. Consistent heavy spin topspins are not good as this allows chopper to do consistent heavy chops making you erratic.
  10. Not letting the chopper build the rhythm is crucial.
  11. Sometimes pushing twice to one side and top spinning to the other side is effective. By pushing twice to one side you are setting him up to build one side memory and then making him change to opposite side.
  12. When top spinning get your eye level close to the ball that way you can watch the ball better, bend your knees and lift. This will make it more consistent.
  13. Lastly, if you can not topspin enough, you could at lower and medium level chop back and wait for loose ball to attack.


This is helpful.. Thanks a bunch..

Cheers.

Have a great day...
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