Throw angle is a bunch of bull too
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Topic: Throw angle is a bunch of bull too
Posted By: pnachtwey
Subject: Throw angle is a bunch of bull too
Date Posted: 05/06/2010 at 11:14pm
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SD
------------- I TT therefore I am |
Replies:
Posted By: Rich215
Date Posted: 05/06/2010 at 11:23pm
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How many different rubbers have you tried on the same blade.....and how many blades have you tried with the same rubber? ------------- |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 05/06/2010 at 11:26pm
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The throw angle is the angle the ball comes off with you loop it. If you loop the same ball (with backspin or topspin) and have one bat with Bryce and one with T05, you'll see how much higher the T05 comes off. The difference is the throw of the rubber. As an engineer, you should look at the data (evidence) first, before dismissing a theory because it seems like bull to you  . A good engineer can always find a theory to suit the data!   ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 05/06/2010 at 11:37pm
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you can look at it like this....the topsheet of a rubber is the main reason behind "throw angle". if a topsheet is super sensitive to spin, the ball will kick up like crazy when blocking a loop (with an open blade face perpendicular to the table). a rubber that is less sensitive to spin (we'll say anti-spin so that you can see the other extreme) will have no reaction to spin...so the ball will just bounce back forward with little height. hope that helps. ------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 05/06/2010 at 11:54pm
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A
------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Leshxa
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 12:01am
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Its all a property of topsheet, sponge, and blade flexibility and rigidity. All topsheets are different and so is the pimples pattern in them. Depending on how the pimple bend into the sponge will yield to different results. I would suggest contacting table tennis engineers for details. I am sure if you call up Yasaka or Stiga, they would provide you the answers. ------------- Back to table tennis... |
Posted By: Conan the Greek
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 12:14am
As an engineer, it should be intuitive that different pip patterns, sponge rebound rates, sponge hardness, topsheet grip and hardness would all have an impact on throw angle. As for a higher throw from countering a loop as opposed to hitting a chop... well, you did say you were a relative TT rookie. But consider a very close / slow motion look at the direction of rebound of the ball from a stationary grippy surface when the ball has backspin compared to topspin. |
pnachtwey wrote:Posted By: pushchop
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 12:25am
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This video should prove it for you. Start at 2:20. They are comparing old vs. new Outlaw, but as you can see the trajectory is somewhat different even between old and new. Zero user variables in play, since blade is held by fixed clamp, with robot shooting the balls at fixed speed/spin. |
Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 12:40am
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Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 1:12am
It's just one parameter of a rubber, and it may not be useful to everyone.
Yes it is, but we're not looking a number here, we're just looking whether it's high, medium or low. This can usually be judged well enough by players that have used a fwe rubbers.
I know it's real from personal experience, but accurate throw numbers are not useful, as they vary too much between styles/strokes. Usually you only want to know if it's high or low compared to other rubbers. I'm sure a setup could be used to prove the concept, but it will be quite complex, and you'd have to ask yourself if it's worth the effort...
The point is that it will still be higher throw than if you looped the same ball with a low-throw rubber. This is what makes it high... it's a relative term compared to other rubbers. ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: tpgh2k
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 1:22am
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well said haggis! +10000000000000000000000000
------------- www.youtube.com/gsutabletennis Timo Boll Spirit FL H3 Blue Sponge Black FH Tenergy 64 Red BH |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 1:24am
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posted by pnachtwey What about when a playing against a chopper? My T05's throw is mighty low and it takes great care to keep the ball from going straight down into the table or into the net. It is obvious that the opponent has a great effect on the 'throw'. This is not the throw that comes in to play, the throw comes in to play when you actually manage to loop the ball. You might still hit the net, but the arc of the ball is high with T 05, while it is low with Mark V m2. This is not because of the player, cause I've used them both and when I switched to T 05, I had to change my bat angle for my loops, cause they where way to high. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: ppmax
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 1:39am
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pnachtwey, You misunderstood what throw meant. Hope others have made it clear. You have a good idea about quantifying throw of rubbers using a standardized test method. How to do it would be a good topic. |
Posted By: JKC
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 3:13am
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Has Sid returned? ------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34kRbLNCcpk" rel="nofollow - Fred 49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGShBxEKnDk%20rel=" rel="nofollow - I once could serve |
Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 3:34am
 .... +1
or Varghese ------------- 729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH) http://youtu.be/y9y9nE9g778" rel="nofollow - vid1 http://youtu.be/xqNy786yGOs" rel="nofollow - Vid 2 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 3:55am
 ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 7:17am
ROFL!!! ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: murrayblhrc
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 9:37am
I think this video's interesting, but factors such as the rebound effect tested in the beginning are hard to consider, especially because blade angle factor plays such a large roll in determining the rebound height, length. On the same topic, it is clearly visible in the video that the ball would hit the bat angled in the vise and slightly move, thus completely changing the results drastically of even the trial being tested............. |
Posted By: pushchop
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 11:02am
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Pnachtwey, swap out one of your T05 with a $5 sheet of low throw 729 Lightening from zeropong.com. Now compare the throw angles on FH. At that very instance, clouds in the sky will part, sunshine will pour down on you, angels will sing, and a big halo will form around your head. Well, maybe not. But at least you'll prove to yourself what throw angle describes. :-) Hey murrayblhrc, yes, it's no science lab but I applaud them for the effort trying to be objective. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 11:43am
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Throw angle has a lot to do with the pips from my experience. Tall pips can get underneath the ball and push it up. Flat or big pips don't do that and tend to send the ball in a straighter path. I first figured this out when comparing the 729 sst (tall) pip with the stranger shaped ritc 2000.
The base sheet seems to be pretty simlar, but the pips of the 2000 definitely seem to play "flatter."
Topsheet tackiness only adds to throw angle in terms of its' reaction to spin. I don't consider this a true contributor to throw angle.
That said, I think it's fairly minimal between most rubbers and will easilly be compensated for with a little getting used to any rubber. It's certainly not as big of a deal as made out to be by some people on forums. Most of them probably hit the ball long and then blame it on their high throw rubber, or vice versa. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 2:10pm
| Blades have different throw angles too. |
Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 3:33pm
Wrong experiment design: - it has to be vertical to account for the gravitational force field but even then drop a forward or backward spinning ball at an angle on glass and then on rubber. if the throw angle differs.. that means it is friction dependent... and you can infer why rubbers with diff friction (and other factors too) differ in throw angle
right. player dependent means not their 'face'... but the pressure they exert or angle the contact or speed of contact etc... which are all physical variables.
huh! lets see... people in forum who are dying to make pnatchweywawawawhosoever believe.. please create a fund and contribute. Or else you know what will happen? HE WONT BELLLLIIIIIEEEEEVE!! ooops. sorry i wish i was one ;)
You are right! ... by throw we usually mean throw on a topspin ball. If you consider backspin... it will be a mirror ...so T-05 will have lower throw than say Super Anti. ------------- 729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH) http://youtu.be/y9y9nE9g778" rel="nofollow - vid1 http://youtu.be/xqNy786yGOs" rel="nofollow - Vid 2 |
Posted By: nathanso
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 3:39pm
------------- BBC, SP, LP |
Posted By: hojim
Date Posted: 05/07/2010 at 5:13pm
------------- American Hinoki 2 ply POC/NWC Shake FL Rakza 7 FH Boost TS BH (testing) 1 ply Hinoki shake FL FH Rakza BH Pride 30 San Wei A5 FH Rakza 7 BH Pryde 30 |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 05/08/2010 at 10:10pm
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sid alert???
------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 05/08/2010 at 10:41pm
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I would agree that the term "throw angle" is the first thing I see taken out of context and is usually more subjective than a scientific mark on how something is playing for somebody. Due to the fact that no two wooden blades are the same and no two people play the same throw angles tend to vary... but both blades and rubbers do have throw angles and those angles combined do create a throw when looping or spin is involved. The problem when using this as a measure for how either a blade or a rubber is supposed to play or behave is that there is too much variance as described above to take this as anything but subjective feel for how this or that is playing. A peice of 1.9mm tenergry on a stiff blade will have a much lower throw than a 2.1mm sheet on a OFF- blade while looping but at low speeds the throw will be more similar due to the fact that the ball is interacting less with the wood / sponge and more with just the topsheet. ------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:01pm
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AS ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: Jonan
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:13pm
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^
Above wall of text is too long. Did not listen! |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:30pm
pnachtwey, I get that you want a more quantifiable rubric as it applies to TT gear... I do. BUT You better wash your hands, well, that's after you walked in here & handed all of us our asses. This forum was plugging along quite nicely before you came along to tell us how we are doing it all wrong! Calling out haggisv on his rightly carrying about his duties as a moderator? Preposterous! putting APW46 on your "s-list"??? That's rich! I'll let you know right now; he will loose no sleep over it!!! Picture the forum like someones living room.We've all been invited to a party! On any given night & we are all just guests, coming & going. I'm going over to the other side of the room now. Good Day & Good Hitting.  ------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:34pm
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I would argue that very few things in all of sports are as precise as the feel that a 2000+ level table tennis player has for the way a blade or blade-rubber combination plays. It is the same precision that professional musicians have for their technology and it is just as mysterious to rookies. Throw angle is a pretty good term and other people at similar playing levels and with similar styles of play -- that is to say, not TT rookies -- know what is meant. As for believing what the manufacturers say about their products, well anyone who is not a TT rookie knows that most companies either tell you nothing useful about how it plays, or they will simply claim that product X has more speed, more spin, AND YET more control too!!! The only way to know is to try something, or to talk to people who you know have the experience and playing level to be a reliable source. One thing is for sure, most of the time too frequent equipment changes will retard your development as a player. |
Posted By: pushchop
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:40pm
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pnachtwey, I understand what you are saying -- that the term "throw angle" is not technically correct. It's really the measured exit angle of ball deflection from fixed-angle bat at fixed speed with an incoming no-spin ball. Whew, think I lost some brain cells writing that! But there is no industry-wide standard for this measure, and remember, not everyone is lucky enough to be engineer with physics degree, so we simplify and talk about LOW, MED, HIGH throw angle simply to determine if we wanna blow our paycheck EJ'ing on another rubber. :-) |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:40pm
| By the way, there are engineers out there who claimed that it was complete bullsh*t that musicians claimed that a Stradivarius violin had special properties. That is why those of us who are actually real scientists make fun of certain classes of engineers -- the village idiots who think that nothing exists that cannot be reduced to a set of differential equations. Wiser engineers live by a different creed -- never trust anything built or designed by an engineer! |
Posted By: BMonkey
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 3:57pm
I don't think this guy is the second coming of Sid, but he is just as annoying. 
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Posted By: ztec
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 4:29pm
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Ok, so you can say that throw angle is not the best term, nor is it without variables and yes, there can be better ways to term this so called "throw". Though I happen to think you're pulling this overboard in your desire to attach a perfect word/description and numerical system to something as ambiguous as "throw angle". IMO, when most people discuss throw angle on this forum, it's with the assumption that if they ask whether rubber A or rubber B has a higher throw angle, they will receive an answer from someone who has tried both rubbers on the same blade, and has done enough practice with the same shots/opponents they usually play with at their local club or wherever they practice to notice a difference in how the rubbers perform. Most of us aren't looking for an answer along the lines of rubber A would be value X and rubber B would be value Y; we're satisfied enough with an answer that just qualitatively tells us that other players thought rubber A has a higher "throw" than rubber B, or vice versa. Will there be disagreements? Most likely yes, nobody has the same stroke or opponent (sometimes opponent if people happen to be playing at the same club), and hence a general consensus is usually what's looked for, not specific answers. If you want specifics, you can either conduct your own tests that you've already suggested, or you can try and contact manufacturers and see what they have to say. I think you've already exhausted enough out of this topic here to realize you're on a wild goose chase here since we don't have the answer that you're looking for or already have in your head. There's no sense in arguing over something that you're not getting an answer to, either go find your answer through other means or just let it go and keep hitting, I'll stick with the latter myself. ------------- Your play will change your opinion of your equipment more than your equipment will change your opinion of your play. |
Posted By: Conan the Greek
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 4:41pm
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A good engineer would understand that he doesn't have enough information to analyze before making rash statements and claims such as whats.his.name did. A bad engineer would jump to conclusions before he figured out what he doesn't know. We seem to have been shown into which category pnachtwey falls. And so with it his credibility. |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 8:02pm
Well you may seek, but I don't think you'll find. It is difficult to quantify this property, as it also varies depending on the angle you hit the ball, the speed you hit the ball and possible some other variables. For example some rubbers have a much higher throw at high speed than at low speed. Both the topsheet and the sponge, as well as the interaction between the 2, come into effect. Even if you could get some measure of the throw, it would be highly dependent on other variables, making the results hard to understand, and therefore meaningless to most people.The reason there are no throw rating for rubbers/blades/bats from manufacturers is that it's not in their interest to do so. Most of the stats they publish have more to do with marketing than anything useful. There are no standardised methods for measuring speed, spin and control either, because it's not in their interest to do so (as well as being too hard as they also depend on many other variables). If there were such test, you would discard half the rubbers on the market by simply looking at the stats...which not only will disadvantage some of the manufacturer, but it's also deceiving the customers, as you cannot characterise a rubber simply by a small set of numbers.... ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: nathanso
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 8:56pm
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The only remaining question in my mind is, why didn't I unsubscribe from this thread earlier? ------------- BBC, SP, LP |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 10:28pm
Exactly! Everything ever built by an engineer started from a fit of subjective rage!@pnachtwey - Don't hate the player hate the game... the term throw angle is just a stupid buzz word that will be around as long as there are rookies to utter it. I admire your scientific demeanor but know your limitations... you'll get banned from this forum way sooner than you'll stop the throw angle madness believe me. ------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: dauntless
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 10:53pm
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I am entering the fray:
Throw angle refers to a blade and rubber combination's propensity to "throw" the ball either low, medium, or high, assuming ball speed, spin, blade angle and momentum being the same. Perhaps the nomenclature leaves a lot to be desired. How does exit angle sound? Exit parabola? Throw vector? It is something that takes experience to understand, and using a lot of different equipment over a period of time helps. It IS a subjective phenomenon but there are some common characteristics that one can say a particular rubber has or does not have. I have a proposition for you: I say Outlaw MAX is lower throw than Tenergy 05 2.1 on the same blade- prove me wrong. For a guy with an engineer's salary, you should be able to afford and perform this experiment yourself. -- Before you say that "throw angle is a bunch or bull", perhaps you should indicate how much actual experience you have with testing, using, and comparing different blade/rubber combinations. Saying that you are relatively new to TT but an engineer means little to those who have experience with the effect of throw. Sounds to me like a person who likes to boast about having an engineering background (as if that qualifies you to understand EVERYTHING) and who gets off on being an argumentative and obnoxiously self-assertive arrogant poster. ------------- 1. BTY Primorac, Nittaku H3N, T64 2. BTY Primorac, H3N, Mendo MP http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56416 - Feedback |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 05/09/2010 at 11:06pm
There is a bit of bend and rebound with OFF/OFF- blades and down. Hard to measure but if you were to look at how a tennis racket bends and snaps back you can easily measure this "throw". Some brands even try to increase this with different technologies... like Yonex rackets "OPS" system. Obviously this throw does not really add any speed but does help create spin. ------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: Thaidog
Date Posted: 05/10/2010 at 12:24am
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After some digging I found a good video on throw angle - it is explained at the end: http://www.youtube.com/user/ttCountenance#p/u/4/It8TmpL7U9w ------------- Timo ALC FL Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
Posted By: hojim
Date Posted: 05/10/2010 at 12:41am
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lol......... good thing it was not a concrete floor
------------- American Hinoki 2 ply POC/NWC Shake FL Rakza 7 FH Boost TS BH (testing) 1 ply Hinoki shake FL FH Rakza BH Pride 30 San Wei A5 FH Rakza 7 BH Pryde 30 |
Posted By: pushchop
Date Posted: 05/10/2010 at 12:54am
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If ITTF sees that vid, they might require hockey helmets for 2011. And jockstraps -- that throw angle was rather low, ouch! Haha... |
Posted By: hungry cow
Date Posted: 05/10/2010 at 4:24am
My Dad is an engineer who tried playing hardbat after always playing sponge. Every ball not even going to the net with the same stroke as he used with sponge was all the evidence he needed that different equipment has different throw angle! I wonder if he could find any evidence of a difference in throw angle between Tenergy 05 and anti...... By the way, even Sid realizes throw angle is real as I have talked to him about different rubbers throw angles, although he might argue about which throw angles work better for a convex or concave looping motion Different throw angles do give more control to different stroke styles. My natural looping motion works best with a higher throw rubber as I really come over the ball allot so I use Desto f3 for good control for me. Other people hit more through the ball and will have better control with a rubber like Sriver with a lower throw. ------------- 70s Stiga Stellan Bengtsson FH - Mark V 2.0 BH - Donic Bluefire JP 03 2.0 |
Posted By: wfberkhof
Date Posted: 05/10/2010 at 9:45am
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The real question of course is, what is a rookie doing with T05's? :)
------------- I'm a tt-trainer with 18 years of experience. Waldner Black Devil CB with LKT Pro XP (2.2mm) and 729 FX Super Soft (2.2mm) |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 05/10/2010 at 10:10am
ROFL! Can't believe we all missed that, but you are totally right with this question! ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 2:01am
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AS
------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 2:33am
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"
debraj, compensating for gravity is easy. That is why I suggested dropping or shooting the ball downward. It is easier to measure the horizontal distances and velocities due to friction if the ball is dropped or shot straight down. You forgot the obvious and bigger problem, air resistance. Air resistance is non-linear so it requires quite a bit more math to compensate for. " how could additional kinetic energy replace a force field? Throwing a ball faster in space is same as throwing a slower projectile under continuous accelerating force (gravity)??? 
anyway... i see so many theory errors.. and this is just one of them.. i'm out of this discussion it will take months to take individual points and explain... and after all that there is no prize.. except someone saying..."okay this needs to be discussed more" .. whatever... if you play you know when you change your rubber the same player and block strokes that he couldn't with another rubber ... in spite of same speed. and also... i think the spinmantra.com can hire you for neo-physics laws. the owner there himself comes up with quite a few of them. :) ------------- 729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH) http://youtu.be/y9y9nE9g778" rel="nofollow - vid1 http://youtu.be/xqNy786yGOs" rel="nofollow - Vid 2 |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 3:00am
Who died and made you the judge of what's intelligent or not? The fact that some one agrees with you don't make it intelligent. Play with 10 different rubbers on the same blade, use the same motion for your strokes and then tell me the ball don't behave differently when it comes to throw angle. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: dauntless
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 3:26am
Exactly. Some things don't need to be explained by numbers. The "numbers" are all going to be subjective and partial. Why? Difference in: blade rubber glue technique altitude humidity Why don't you just test your ball dropping theory and let us know how it turns out? A real engineer/scientist doesn't need anyone else to give them kudos for rhetoric. We don't care if you "need numbers". If it pleases you to perform some experiments, and the data you find is compelling, please come back and explain it all to us. Until then, are you unable to buy a sheet of some "bull" low throw rubber and test it out? If you are truly interested in proof, you would actually be doing an experiment of your own like ALL of the people who have commented here regarding throw & different rubber/blade combos. Instead you are talking about it. That only leaves one answer, and it isn't something to be ashamed of. Being broke isn't something I will make fun of. But when you do get the funds to actually BUY some other rubbers and test them, you will be amazed at what happens. Voila: THROW ANGLE exists, yay! ------------- 1. BTY Primorac, Nittaku H3N, T64 2. BTY Primorac, H3N, Mendo MP http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56416 - Feedback |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 3:26am
+1
an arrogant jag for sure worse yet, a condescending JAG we all have some knowledge but look at his posts it's fairly clear to draw from his own words; only he can rightly see this is a quality he shares with ole siddo well that & the whole jag angle yet to show any capacity (whatsoever) for his part in a matter look, I'm an arrogant jag so I know one when I see one and just for you pnachtwey
------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
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Posted By: dauntless
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 3:31am
This guy has got to be just messing with us. It is just too improbable that someone is that dense. Come on, admit it. You are just messing with us, right? right??? Ok, ok.... you got me. It was all a joke, and I took him seriously. God I feel so stupid. I almost cussed at this guy. LOL.  Truly great joke. You had a few of us going for sure... myself included. He is an engineer alright... a BS engineer. You are an artist my friend. ------------- 1. BTY Primorac, Nittaku H3N, T64 2. BTY Primorac, H3N, Mendo MP http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56416 - Feedback |
Posted By: tdragon
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 3:32am
Sound like SID 
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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 5:18am
'Throw' in TT terms is a term not derived at by exact science, more the result of 1000's of TT players evolving a term to describe the differing characteristics of many variables of equipment when subjected to incoming spin and pace from a ball, the term if you like, is a players opinion of the result of the amalgamation of certain variables, which he/she makes a judgement upon, based on his/her experiences of playing with other equipment, not scientific, but non the less, reality. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 8:56am
Now, where have you been quoted saying this? APW quoted you, when you said you were a TT rookie and then he added his message that he was a engineer rookie who thought Newton's laws of motion are BS. So, I haven't seen any one changing your original statements to make you look stupid, as there is no need to change them to achieve this, you are doing this fine on your own. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: hungry cow
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 9:27am
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I highly doubt this person actually has an engineering degree, if so they would understand the scientific method 1. State the problem 2. Research the problem 3. State the hypothesis 4. Test the hypothesis 5. Analyze the results 6. State the conclusion 7. Repeat the work He has only done the first three steps and thinks he can make his hypothesis into a law. The rest of us actually have tested the hypothesis, analyzed the results, stated the conclusion we have found, and repeated the work finding the results repeat themselves. So according to the scientific method we are all much more qualified to make a theory about throw angle than this supposed "engineer" who makes self righteous theories after only going through the first three steps of the scientific method. ------------- 70s Stiga Stellan Bengtsson FH - Mark V 2.0 BH - Donic Bluefire JP 03 2.0 |
Posted By: zrrbiteDK
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 9:44am
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Pnacht, what exactly are you trying to prove with this thread? It's impossible to prove or disprove a term that is not quantifiable within the realm of science, as it's already been stated. Any experienced player will tell you that "throw" is an important parameter and that they'll pick their equipment depending on throw values, because throw directly impacts how your play holds up with the personal style of play defined by our neural pathways. Tact is proving a point without offending anyone in the process. You sir, have none! ------------- Current: Avalox BT777 / ? / ? |
Posted By: Rich215
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 9:56am
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Hi SID. Still upset you got punted twice from here? ------------- |
Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 12:39pm
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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33879&KW=&PID=414956#414956 - when multiple identities "meet"
------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |
Posted By: Conan the Greek
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 2:19pm
+100 except that he only did step one and then jumped directly to step six. As I said earlier: A good engineer would understand that he doesn't have enough information to analyze before making rash statements and claims such as [who the hell is this, again?]. A bad engineer would jump to conclusions before he figured out what he doesn't know. We seem to have been shown into which category pnachtwey falls. And so with it his credibility. |
Posted By: debraj
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 2:27pm
+1 sid, mol, varghesep, pnachtwey ------------- 729-F1||Rhyzm-P(FH)|| Rasant Grip orRhyzm-P max(BH) http://youtu.be/y9y9nE9g778" rel="nofollow - vid1 http://youtu.be/xqNy786yGOs" rel="nofollow - Vid 2 |
Posted By: Chopin
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 4:24pm
Hope I haven't misquoted you
 I don't see how that's going to test for throw angle. I can't imagine how the low impact forces involved there would engage the sponge, which I hypothesise would affect throw angle. Consequently, I see your test (suggested in your first post and not quoted here) as more of a test for topsheet grip than throw angle. I would think you would need to redsign your test along the lines of the video shown, although I don't believe robots are accurate enough yet.
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Posted By: onurzaim
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 4:39pm
I totally agree with you. I have seen that better players do not have very high throw angles. Angle is related with techinque. When you hit vertical with good punch you will get nice revolutions and ball will tend to drop earlier when you do good topspin. It is all about your technical abilites and your power. I think lower throw angle shots shows the skill of the player in my opinion aswell. ------------- Frindship F-1 Forhand: Hurricane 3 39 Backhand: Haifu Shark III pink sponge |
Posted By: despoticwalnut
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 4:43pm
Troll 6/10 |
Posted By: jkillashark
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 4:52pm
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Players with poor technique will often experience that they will always have a low throw angle off of their loops into the net.
------------- Butterfly Viscaria FL FH: Black DHS Neo Hurricane 3 Blue Sponge National BH: Red Butterfly Tenergy 80 Footwork and forehand is always the answer. |
Posted By: ajchien
Date Posted: 05/11/2010 at 5:09pm
| Throw angle, I believe, was a term coined first by "Don Iguana Labs", a table tennis equipment enthusiast group in the US in the mid to late 1990's. Although they were originally based out of Maryland, the network spread across the US. They were able to obtain samples of newer equipment from vendors, try out the equipment, and write consensus, subjective internet posted reviews on newer (at the time) table tennis equipment. "Testers" for the group ranged from 800 rated level chronic EJ's to national team players. I'm not sure if anyone ever claimed this to be a measurable entity. Nevertheless, the concept of "throw angle" was something that the testers seemed to understand as a method of describing equipment to each other. It has seemgly been incorporated into EJ terminology opver time. |
Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 05/12/2010 at 8:14am
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basing on the pattern and the way he states his outrageous statements i conclude that we were SIDomized!
------------- Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach |
Posted By: abdulmuhsee
Date Posted: 05/13/2010 at 12:44am
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Wouldn't throw angle simply be another way of saying how grippy/spinny the rubber is? Obviously, a grippier rubber will have greater reaction to spin and throw the ball all over the place, though not always 'high' or 'low'. Pips do have a bit more science to them depending how flexible/long they are, but the way they throw the ball still depends on what you're hitting; however, if the pips are flexible, then I would imagine that regardless of the incoming spin, since the ball is usually hit at the same position from the bounce, the pips would flex and 'throw' the ball in the same general direction regardless of the spin, though still affected by it. Perhaps even different grades of sponge would have a similar affect and alter what general upwards or downwards angle the ball tends to go while hitting from the same position and how the rubber flexes back.
Did that make sense? Could this be what 'throw angle' is?
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Posted By: Heimdallalso
Date Posted: 05/13/2010 at 1:06am
 ------------- NEXY Lissom st 85g fh/ Andro Impuls Speed max bh/ Palio Flying Dragon 1.8 |