How much do you pay for coaching?
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Category: Coaching & Tips
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Topic: How much do you pay for coaching?
Posted By: prott.co.uk
Subject: How much do you pay for coaching?
Date Posted: 07/04/2010 at 7:49pm
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Hi, How much do you pay for coaching or how much you charge  , what's the level of your coach? I'd be interesting to seewhat are the rates in different countries: USA, Europe, Asia. |
Replies:
Posted By: j0hn
Date Posted: 07/04/2010 at 9:57pm
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i'm paying US$21.50 per session ------------- stiga inspira plus, dhs h3 provincial 41° | bty dignics 64 |
Posted By: silverhair
Date Posted: 07/04/2010 at 10:34pm
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Coach Sherri Xu. $35 per 1 1/2 - 2 hour group session, $40 per hour for private training. Worth every cent. ------------- What if there were no hypothetical questions? |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 07/04/2010 at 11:08pm
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A typical rate for club membership that allows unlimited club play is around $50-60 USD. Add another $60 a month to that and you get 20-30 minute lessons 3 times a week for the month. Our club has an ex-national player and a younger female coach. Both are easily over USATT 2400. This is pretty common in Korea. All kinds of players at or above that rating coaching or playing. The price for coaching at an average club is a veritable bargan and each club has netted off area for the multi-ball training, some clubs like ours having two netted off areas. I would probably pay many times thiis price in US plus the cost of time and travel if you are not in a TT strong area. My club is a 5 minute walk away. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: PF4_
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 1:05am
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Anywhere between $A30-50 per hour for one on one private coaching is the norm in Melbourne, with a so-called accredited coach. Group coaching is somewhere between $5 and $20 per session which may be longer than 1 hour up to 3 hours ------------- Butterfly Viscaria FL Tenergy 05 DHS Cloud and Fog |
Posted By: Thomasson
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 2:21am
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I dont charge, but I only train clubmembers.
I like to get the club better and better. ------------- Blade: TB ALC FH: Tenergy05 2.1 BH: Tenergy64 1.7 |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 5:23am
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I charge £8.00 an hour or £12.00 for two, I could charge more as I'm the only coach in the area, but I feel that would deter some pupils who may not be able to afford it, and I'm in it for more than just the money. If I went to £20 an hour, I could make the same amount of money for the same amount of work, but then I would only be helping half as many players. Its part time, so why be greedy doing what you love? ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Hasham
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 6:08am
i get coached by the national team coach, he is employed by the school so i dont have to pay when playing in school  . in the club where he coaches, i just pay the club $5 a month and thats it
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Posted By: Tinykin_2
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 6:15am
Very reasonable. That's about half the going rate in England. Can you move to the West Country? ------------- Member of Single Ply Club. Shakehand, Kauri wood by American Hinoki, 1-ply 7mm. FH> Gambler Reflectoid. BH> Yasaka Mark V |
APW46 wrote:Posted By: Skyline
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 6:26am
| I don't pay for coaching, we just pay membership fee for the club and can join a training group with a coach for free. private coaching is not very popular over here. although I think I would improve heaps if I had my own coach who could spar with me. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 6:34am
 and I liker cider....------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: PLLsystem
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 7:08am
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in our club you have to pay 20USD for mothly membership. It means unlimited playing on thursdays and tuesdays. Coached trainings costs 14-20 USD/hour. ------------- we make real professional handmade table tennis blades - ospblades.com |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 8:01am
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Normal rate in Canada is $30-$40 per hour for private training. There are some very good coach from China only charge $25 per hour, but they don't speak English. For high level training it can cost up to $60 per hour. |
Posted By: LeeMc
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 9:02am
I commend you APW46. 
Normal rate for one on one in this area is probably around £20 ($30) per hour, but coaches around here aren't exactly advertised; you have to go looking. I've never had any proper coaching in my 10 years of playing (except a bit at the start) but I am going to 4 day summer school in August run by top England players - can't wait!
 |
Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 10:29am
incredible!! i wish you were here in the US, cuz, where i play, coaches charge 50 bucks an hour, which would be around 33 pounds or more than 4 times what you charge!!! |
Posted By: Thomasson
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 10:52am
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Seems to be ur costs to play tabletennis are much bigger then mine, I have a fellow coach and we give eachother tips when playing vs eachother for fun.
But we play about 70 euros a year to play from Monday Evening - Saturday, (closed wednesday). We can play as much as we want, we have trainings groups on Mondag, Tuesday, Thursday and competition for seniors on Friday and on Saturday for the youth. ------------- Blade: TB ALC FH: Tenergy05 2.1 BH: Tenergy64 1.7 |
Posted By: Re1Mu2R3
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 11:07am
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300-600php per 1 1/2 - 2 hour session in the Philippines. Approx 48-50php = 1$. An average student gets 500 - 1500php allowance a week. ------------- How to play Table Tennis: #1. Be Chinese (Ethnicity) #2. Be Chinese(Citizenship) #3. BE CHINESE(In Heart, Mind and Spirit) #4: Get a Chinese Coach #5. Get a Chinese Forehand Rubber (Black) |
Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 11:52am
you are soooo lucky!!! 70 euros a year?? where i play, it's 10 times that much!!! i wish i lived in SAN DIEGO, cuz i hear they have a great club there and they pay 40 bucks a year, which would be half what you pay!! |
Posted By: nathanso
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 1:11pm
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$30/hr with a sponsored 2400 level player. But I find that higher-rated club members who know my strength and weaknesses better than an occasional coach are more beneficial. ------------- BBC, SP, LP |
Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 5:12pm
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In the Silicon Valley Bay Area (northern California), the rates for good private coaching varies between $35 to $65 an hour. E.g., A 2400+ rated player like Truong Tu would charge $35 + $3 for an hour while someone like Stefan Feth (National team coach) would charge $65 an hour. Those in between (like Hailong Shen, Jitendra Gidla, Anal Kashyap --> all 2500+ rated players) would charge $40 plus any drop-in fee for the club (club members don't have to pay the drop-in fee). Group lessons are cheaper. But you get what you pay for. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 6:24pm
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I live in NY, the club that i play in has few coaches and one of them offers lessons for around 40-50$ for an 1 hour. Higher ranked coaches 2500+ that come once in a while teach for about 60$/hour (one of them is Atanda Musa). The cheaper coaches are mostly chinese (their rating ranges 2200-2400) and charge less for indvi/group lessons and if your a member of the club. We had a 2600~ player from france (Damien Provost) and i think he gave few lessons for 60$/hour.
i was thinking of getting few lessons but none of the coaches ive seen really attract me that much.
it seems like alot of them are focused on making money... ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: DZhuo
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 7:47pm
| My coach, coaches me and my friend for 3 hours and all we do is buy him lunch. Which never goes over $10. at most like $9. xD |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 8:00pm
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In New Zealand people pay $40.00 plus table hire $7.50 which is around $62.00 USAD per hour ,maybe less for group but this is usually for juniors, I coach at a school for $2.00 a student lol or in my shop $12 or $15.00 for 30 mins,
I was watching a coach yesterday with a adult student and I thought what a scam as they were doing pitterpats back and fro and the student was taking backhand on forehand side and playing awkward pushing (what I mean he wasnt learning anything) classic ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 8:58pm
ain't that the truth!!! |
Posted By: silverhair
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 8:59pm
It's the economics of trying to make any kind of money in table tennis. The only way to end up with a small fortune in table tennis is to start with a large fortune.
------------- What if there were no hypothetical questions? |
Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/05/2010 at 9:42pm
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yeah, those "coaches" can make a lot of money here. if you charge $50/hr. and you work 5 hrs./day and 5 days/week, that comes out to $60,000 a year!! and, if you're smart, you won't report it to the IRS, which means you won't lose any money (around 30-35%, depending on where you live) to taxes. so, it behooves them to seek out totally clueless people and teach them nothing, yet keep them coming as often as possible to fork over the money. if you are 1500-level and you are taking, say, 2-3 lessons per week, you should see some real improvement within 4 months, cuz the basic strokes and footwork are relatively easy to learn, so long as the coach knows how to teach you. but the complicated thing about this game is tactics, which involves the serve to a large degree, and that takes much longer and requires learning a way of thinking. and that's what generally trips people up, coaches and players alike. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/06/2010 at 5:17am
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I have to say, there is a difference between trying to make a full time living purely out of TT coaching, and coaching part time. I know plenty of full time coaches, in England there are jobs available at a multitude of TT academy's, it seems attractive, the prospect of being a full time coach, but in reality, it just becomes a job, the enjoyment, from the perspective of TT being fun is sucked out, and after a while they drift off to other things. I initially set up my coaching school to cover my (considerable) costs of playing on the national circuit, it does and I'm happy with that, my pupils are happy because they consider my price to be value for money, so I will only put my prices up if I have to through increased overheads. Having said that, I might just be cheap coz I'm crap
There are alot of people being ripped off, the benefit of having a top international class coach if you are a novice and adult is negligible, It like employing a top world renowned chef, at great expence, to teach you how to cook a burger. Going to a training camp is different, but one on one stuff will empty your wallet, with only marginal results, unless you are playing a hell of a lot of TT to supplement it. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: AG30
Date Posted: 07/06/2010 at 3:29pm
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I pay $10/month to the club, and play 4 days/week. In the club, advanced players teach me a lot. I am a beginner/intermediate, so, over 1500 players who know the basic skills are good enough for me. I always try to practice with them rather than play a match. ------------- T.K. |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 07/06/2010 at 5:15pm
I think paying ~$30/hr is about the right amount, and affordable if you take 1 hour lesson per week. However, unless you are also practicing with other good partner for at least 6hr/week, you will not see any improvement (and it's hard to find a partner who is good enough to practice what your coach teach you). I try to take 2-3 hours lesson per week, but I can see that over along run, it will impact me financially, so I may continue to take lessons until I advances to 1 or 2 level higher, then I may need to ease off with the training  . Note finding a good coach @ the affordable rate (~$30), and at the convenience is not easy, so even though it is expensive, but I consider myself lucky to have (and can afford) to have coaching right now. |
Posted By: keven702
Date Posted: 07/06/2010 at 9:37pm
I know I live in Ny also and the coaching price is ridiculous... I would love to take some lessons but its just too expensive. How many lessons would you have to take to improve your game noticeably? |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 12:37am
same, lessons are just to expensive and its hard to tell a difference between a coach that wants to teach you and the coach that wants to make money.
ihavent taken any lessons but i think i should... im not rated, but ive beaten players around 1300-1400... gotten some games off higher ranked players. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 8:32am
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I think you need to develop a relationship with your coach, bc if you just take a few lessons and want a coach to, say, show you to do a BH loop, then yes s/he can show you how to do BH loop, but knowing how to do it, does not mean you can do it correctly. You need to practice it for hundreds of hours, if not thousands, and every now and then you still need feedback and correction from coach. In general, if a coach see that you want to improve, and have a long term commitment. s/he will work hard to help you. I have work with several coaches, and I find all of them interested in helping me. They never want to spend too much time doing drills where they think I can do with other partner, bc they think it would be a waist of time and money... |
Posted By: keven702
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 10:19am
If you live in NYC its the one in flushing with the yellow sign. I don't go any more because i don't feel like spending 70$ a month just to play. I lessons are also 50-60$ an hour. I know Shao Yu is one of the coaches there and also a 2600+ player is also a coach there but still the price is ridiculous. |
Posted By: LittleFish.Net
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 10:22am
That's very true. I've been with my current coach for almost a year. $50/hr is quite expensive for me. However, we would start early if I show up early and she would also give me extra time for free if the next person doesn't show up. ------------- Violin CPen/FH:T05 2.1/BH:T64 1.9 W-6 CPen/FH:IQUL 2.2/BH:IQUL SV 2.0 |
Posted By: LittleFish.Net
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 11:28am
Are you talking about the one on Prince street? I don't live in NYC but visited that club with a friend quite a while ago. It is relatively small and to fit more tables, all tables except one are oriented to the width of the building. I won a couple of points because I drove my friend to the wall...he actually hit the wall the first time  ------------- Violin CPen/FH:T05 2.1/BH:T64 1.9 W-6 CPen/FH:IQUL 2.2/BH:IQUL SV 2.0 |
Posted By: keven702
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 11:37am
Haha , Yea it is pretty cramp in there. I've always wanted to play some where with a lot of space to play and lob  .
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Posted By: gatorling
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 2:30pm
| Wow pretty crazy. I'm glad I'm able to get good coaching for cheap. I usually do group lessons (with like 1-3 other people) and it's $5 for an hours worth. Coach is really interested in seeing me and my training partner improve and we sometimes hang out with him outside of the club. |
Posted By: yttrerand
Date Posted: 07/07/2010 at 9:54pm
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I pay 40$ a year @ my club. 2 hours a week with maybe 8-10 other peepz. Sadly, you're only allowed to play @ trainings :s |
Posted By: keven702
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 12:52am
| I think a year membership for the club is 780$... You can join a sports club for that money. |
Posted By: quakerroatmeal
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 3:43am
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780$ a year? That's a lot of money, what all does that get you? I've looked and it averages around 30$-60$ an hour here for private coaching. I wish there was a specific table tennis specific club I can pay to play at where coaches there will give you advice/tips/help you out. But all I can find are recreational centers to practice at, the guys there who are better will general give me tips and what not. But recently a local college is doing a 4 day table tennis camp/clinic that I"ll be going to for 255$ and it's a 3.5 hr each day for 4 days. I'm definitely excited about that.
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Posted By: tomas.gt
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 4:17am
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when you say 20 usd, 40 usd, 60usd.. per hour, I cannot imagine how much it is.
Here, 10 USD/hour is more than avarage hour-wage. And coaching cost around 10usd/hour.
However more important than coaching is to have somebody, who will play the ball that way, you need to. ------------- Kokutaku Bishu no.1 ST - H3N red , BTfly Spinart 2.1 black |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 4:27am
7.25 is average minimum wage for most states in the U.S.
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Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 4:30am
Yea its similar in NYTTF for $800. But you can pay $12 for a whole day at NYTTF. Its better for me, since I don't play a lot. |
Posted By: keven702
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 11:25am
| Wow 12$ a day?! thats pretty awesome. Mine is 8$ an hour a person so for one hour for 2 people its 16$ |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 11:27am
------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: HyperThyroid
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 12:16pm
Posted By: flyingmachine
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 12:49pm
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$8/hr? $12/day?! no wonder table tennis level can't go up in the states. Can't imagine many young people being able to afford that on their allowances unless their parents are serious about the sport as well. At the club I play at in California, it's $20/month (Wed/Sat), and the resident coach charges $40/hr. A couple of clubs within driving distance also have group lessons for $20/hr. ------------- Ma Lin Soft Carbon: FH: H3 NEO, BH: Red Diamond Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38328&PID=471847#471847 |
Posted By: tablet92
Date Posted: 07/08/2010 at 2:20pm
| I pay 2 $ a month, 2 hours 5 times a week. I play with other players, sometimes with coach, coach always giving tips and saying which drills should we do, but it's only available for juniors. |
Posted By: prott.co.uk
Date Posted: 07/09/2010 at 6:26pm
| tablet92 where do you live? |
Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 07/26/2010 at 1:04pm
Takes too much money to open a table tennis club, tables cost so much, hard to find the space as well, so high prices. And you are right there are hardly any young people in NYC clubs. There are mostly older adults with a few younger children of table tennis parents. And some random people like me who discover the sport.
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Posted By: quakerroatmeal
Date Posted: 07/26/2010 at 3:28pm
| I recently went to Texas Wesleyan University's table tennis camp recently and it was amazing! Well worth every cent of my money. The atmosphere was great, the coaches were wonderful, friendly, and very helpful. If you're ever in Texas during the summer it's well worth it. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 1:52am
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My experience in coaches in the Pacific Northwest (USA) fits with all lot of prices listed here. You can get coaches in the 2200-2400 range for around $40/hour and in the $2400+ range for $60 and up. My recollection is the Stellan Bengtsson, the former world champion and one of the great coaches of the world who now lives in San Diego, charges $80/hour for private lessons.
The thing to recognize about coaches is that it's not enough to have strong technical knowledge. The best coaches are gifted teachers, in the same sense you might have a wonderful teacher in school. The understand how their students feel, they can communicate knowledge, and they can make learning fun. So, for example, I call Stellan a great coach because I know what it takes to be a great teacher, even without discussing his creditentials coaching various great players (Persson, Maze, etc.).
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Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 2:04am
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I wanted to make a separate post to discuss private lessons versus taking camps. Taking private lessons is the more expensive approach for comparable quality of coaching, but let's suppose for the moment that money is not an issue. Some people argue that having weekly private lessons is the best way to go because your coaches gets to know you really well and tweak your lessons over time. However, in a camp you have a more intense immersion in learning. At a camp (at least, a small camp without too many participants) you spend a lot of time with your coaches and they'll get to know you, too.
Our club has hosted several training camps with Stellan and when I send out announcements, I like to include a quote from Sean O'Neill. Keep in mind that Sean was a top level American player who was trained in both China and Europe and is a very good coach in his own right. Here is his quote: "Stellan is by far the best coach I have ever worked with and I have worked with a number of the best Swedish and Chinese coaches of the last 30 years... I want to stress that if you are a serious player or coach you are missing an opportunity of a lifetime if you don't take advantage of this unique opportunity... I would guess the 5 days of intense training would be the equivalent of probably 8-10 months of weekly lessons."
Now much of that quote simply speaks to the coaching skills of Stellan, but it also addresses the relative value of attending a camp versus taking weekly private lessons. Personally, I think I would go for weekly lessons if my coach was at least 2500+ and a very good teacher (such as Sean himself). Otherwise, I would go for the training camp, especially with Stellan who is incredible (on a scale of 1 to 10, he rates an 11). Naw, even if I had that 2500+ weekly private coach, I'd probably do that and take the camp with Stellan.
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Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 2:05am
| Oh, and just to be fair, we do have another Stellan camp coming up ( http://www.wtabletennis.org/stellanCampSummer2010/ - http://www.wtabletennis.org/stellanCampSummer2010/ ) and, with any luck, we'll have one next March, too. However, everything I said here would still be my opinion even without the Stellan camps. |
Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 2:33am
I can tell your camp is not filled up yet. This is very blatant . |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 2:42am
I plead guilty, but it doesn't change anything I said. The word choice "blatant" also implies something wrong with pushing the camp, and I don't see any problem with that. Our club makes no money ($0) on the camp, so if I push the camp, it's because I think it's great.
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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 5:09am
I have to strongly disagree with that, I have been running training camps for 15 yrs and coaching players on a weekly basis throughout that time, and I can assure you there is a limit to what can be absorbed in 5 days, whereas the opportinity of practice/ training presents itself for six days in between weekly sessions, with the opportunity for a coach to monitor progress and adjust and mentor his protege. If he's stating that the time spent with a coach is equal over the two periods, I would agree, but to propose that the BENEFIT to a player is the same in order to sell places, is IMO missleading, and a sales pitch. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 6:59am
5 days=8-10 months of weekly lessons??? Seeing how I have played for roughly 5 year, 8-10 months a year, with out any camps at all, I would be at the same level with a 25 day camp? Highly unlikely! All though I do believe a camp can be a very good thing to step up in level, I don't think it can replace weekly training and the biggest benefit would probably be a short boost in level, that might be possible to with hold with weekly practice. APW, nice to see you posting again, it's been a while since the last time I saw you here. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 12:15pm
As I stated above, our club makes no money on our camps. More particularly, Sean has no connection to our camps -- he doesn't coach at them and he has no financial connection to them. So I don't think it's fair to call it a sales pitch. It's simply his opinion. Sean himself gives weekly lessons and as the US Paralympic coach spent a lot of time looking to improve the coaching experience for the paralympic players.
The question of how much can be absorbed in a five day camp will depend upon the student. Such camps can be (if you want) a very intense experience that can lead to breakthroughs that are slower to occur in weekly training. My personal experience (speaking as the student, not the coach) is that I found I absorbed more through the camp than the weekly lessons and at a better price, too. Which is why I have no problem with that quote from Sean.
There are other factors here too. For weekly coaching, you are dependent upon whomever is local to you. Unless you are really fortunate, that local coach may not be that great. By comparison, at a camp you might be trained by a superior coach brought from far away just for the camp. And, as I mentioned, weekly lessons usually add up to quite a bit more money.
If I had a kid I was trying to train, I would do both camps and weekly lessons. Even if I thought my local (weekly) coach was great, I'd still try to get in the camps because they would expose the kid to different ideas and methods. In fact, I have a friend who does just that -- he arranged weekly training for his boys, but jumps at the camps as a way to get them an intense experience with a different coach.
If I only had to do one or the other, I would prefer the camps, but go to more than one (at least two a year). But that's based in part on money. I had unlimited money and lived in San Diego, I might well just take weekly lessons from Stellan.
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Posted By: TTHOUSTON
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 1:14pm
| I live at Houston, TX and play at Houston Table Tennis club right on Boone St. Coach Wang's rating is +2600. A lot of people like the way she teach. She show and correct all your weakness, she teach from FH, BH, push both side, return service, foot work and more for just an hour and the cost is $35 only. She doesn't care the money, she doesn't care you will come back or not, she show and teach you everything at once. Our club are very lucky to had a coach like that. She coach a lot of kid in the club included my daughter. Anne Deng, Judy wang, Richard Deng are cardet player and they were coach from her. hopefully, you will see her soon. |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 1:54pm
I think you have fleshed out some important subtleties in this post that were not obvious in the O'Neil quote. First, APW's style can be a little rough but I don't think he means any harm. He says what he thinks with little concern for diplomacy . But from what little I know about benfb, I am quite confident that he would not be intentionally misleading to sell tickets to his Stellan camp. Nonetheless, I think it is important to address O'Neil's quote as either an (innocuous) exaggeration meant to prove a point, or a grotesque misunderstanding of how the human brain works. My strong intuition is that the quote is the former and not the latter. The human brain's ability to learn is a very constrained process. Or rather, its ability to retain information over extended periods of time is constrained. As a student of neuroscience, one of the first things I was inundated with in my cognition classes was the mountains of empirical data demonstrating the constraints on new skill acquisition and retention. There is simply no way that five days of training--in any condition currently known to humans--can equal many months of coaching. It's simply impossible. Benfb, if I'm not mistaken, your Ph.D. is in physics. O'Neil's statement is roughly the equivalent of the common urban myth: "A bumblebee's ability to fly defies the laws of physics." I've heard this said by many people and maybe you have too. Of course, it's rubbish. Nothing defies the laws of physics. They're laws--things either function according to them, or they don't function. In the same way, all of our brains are constrained by the same things--physics, biology, evolution, etc. There is a certain amount of individual variation, but that variation is itself limited. What I do think is important to note, and something that benfb pointed out, is that exposure to a new teacher in a new environment may expose the student to a novel way of looking at the to-be-learned information, which can in turn better facilitate learning and can occasionally result in that "breakthrough" moment. On the other hand, as my old BJJ instructor used to say, "The best way to teach someone nothing is to teach them everything." This aphorism maps on perfectly to the data in cognitive neuroscience. There is a finite amount of info that a person can retain. In addition, trying to learn two or three different things at once can cause problems such as interference. I've been told that the young Chinese players in-training work on (basically) one stroke/technique per training session. If so, then the coaches have done their homework because this is the most efficient way to learn. In short, the benefit of a training camp is the fresh perspective a new and highly capable coach can bring to the table, which positively correlates with learning. The downfall is that it is highly unlikely that the majority of the information will be retained simply because the students are inundated with concentrated information in a short amount of time, which negatively correlates with retention. In any case, the idea that five days of training at a camp is equivalent to months of coaching is simply false. But it is probably just meant as a metaphor for some of the breakthroughs that may happen at a camp. In the end, the only thing that is equivalent to months of coaching is... months of coaching. |
Posted By: prott.co.uk
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 2:07pm
| Looking at it from different view, at your camp you'll get less than half an hour of Stellans' "attention" (6hours divided by 14 people) per day or 2 hours in 5 days which equals to $250 p/h :) |
Posted By: metalone
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 4:17pm
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I think there is a little mis-understanding. I have been to four of Stellans camps and I also see a regular coach. The emphasis on camps is too help point out what you are doing wrong and also teach what you may or may not already know - new information. Camps are not meant to train you, you need to take away the information that was gained and then apply it to your training, with or without a coach. At everyone of Stellans camps, I came away with valuable information that helped me play better. Now should have my regular coach pointed out or taught the same lessons as Stellan, of cource. This does not mean that anyone coach is good or bad, but a new fresh set of eyes is always good and Stellan and Angies eyes are very good. Stellan states at the very beginning, write down what you are taught, so you can go back and review the information during your normal training. ------------- Gave up listing, too many changes. Blade - Yes BH - Rubber Red FH - Rubber Black |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 07/27/2010 at 4:42pm
| I have not been to any TT training camp, but if it is anything like other sport training camp such as Soccer, Baseball, Hockey, Karate, etc.. then beside getting new, and up to date information, it will give you a chance for you to meet and learn from a well known and credited people, and reaffirm you of what you may already learn from your coach is correct and valuable. I remember in one of the Karate camp we (from white belt all the way to 5th degree black belt- my instructor) were doing the same basic Kata with a Karate master from Japan. The only difference was that he broke down all the moves, and added some information that was misunderstood before. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 1:46am
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I have a lot of respect for Anton's analysis, but metalone's reply takes the words right out of my mouth. To say that you have limited capacity to learn in only five days is a given, but you can be exposed to a lot of stuff that you can then work on -- with or without coaching -- over the following months. I take careful notes at those camps and I can exchange emails (or phone calls, if need be) with Stellan later. |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 1:54am
Certainly. I absolutely agree, and just for the record I wasn't saying that the camp is a bad idea or anything like that. All I really meant to convey was that the Sean O'Neil quote was... "incomplete". It needed a lot of unpacking for me (and apparently others) to find it "satisfactory" . While I thought I understood the principle embedded in the quote, I was simply playing devil's advocate to make sure. Plus, I was bored this afternoon and felt like engaging in some dialog. Good luck with the Stellan camp, Ben! Next time we see each other at the Corvallis club, we should play. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 2:03am
This brings up another point that I sometimes hear argued, which has to do with getting personal attention in private coaching versus group attention in camps. My observation is that personal attention is inefficient. You simply can't acquire that much additional useful information/experience from the extra attention. For example, your coach might make a point about your stroke or footwork, and then spend the next 10 minutes drilling you. For the drill itself, you don't really need the coach, except that he's already there. So in a camp setting, your drills won't be with the coach, but the suggetions will still come from him.
I don't mean to say there isn't some advantage to the personal attention, but it's not just "oh, I get an hour of attention instead of sharing attention with 13 other camp participants"
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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 5:01am
 ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: prott.co.uk
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 5:31am
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Your point would be valid if this camp was a cheaper option than private coaching. Another thing to consider is that I don't know how much one can acquire after first hour, second hour or third day after constantly playing in a closed environment, someone already nicely explained above: you need all these elements to progress: coaching, drilling, matchplay. The beauty of a private coaching is that you can always go back (after for example you've lost a match to someone or you want to learn something new) and get help but with a camp like this you can't, once its over its over - no feedback, no help. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 6:36am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: prott.co.uk
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 7:10am
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benfb's point about personal attention being inefficient |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 7:13am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 7:26am
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/28/2010 at 1:13pm
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OK, a few points:
1. I wanted to defend Sean O'Neill's quote. Perhaps it's not really a fair statement to equate private lessons and camp like that, but in such a brief statement, he doesn't really have the opportunity to explain himself. Sean is not a salesman and I don't think the quote was meant as hype or sales pitch, but he knew I wanted to use that quote to promote the camps, so he may have let it go public without the usual further explanations.
2. Camps can be very cost-effective compared to personal coaching. Let's say you lived in San Diego and took lessons from Stellan. His rate is $80/hour, so if you took two hours a week, you'd have spent $480 in three weeks, compared to $500 for the camp. And although the camp is 30 hours of play, you also have the opportunity to talk to Stellan during lunch and at the beginning and end of the day, so there is more like 40 hours of learning opportunity.
3. It is true that your personal coach might be the only reliable/consistent drill partner in your area, so working with him would be the only way to get good drill work. On the other hand, perhaps the strongest argument for taking a camp is the 95% of the people don't live in an area where they have access to a high level coach who also has strong teaching skills.
4. I've seen people take the camps and only show marginal improvements. Usually, they only take one camp and come in with the idea that they just want to tweak certain short-comings in their games. On the other hand, I've known a surprising number of people who take weekly lessons from high quality coaches and still show only the slowest of improvement. My personal theory is that they don't put enough time into practice between lessons. If you put lots of time into practice, you can improve a lot, whether you take private lessons, semiannual camps, or no training at all (although no training can lead to high levels of bad technique).
5. If I had an alternative life in a dream world, I would live in a big city that had a great coach and strong practice partners. Then I would take weekly lessons, practice all the time each week, and still go to camps whenever I could.
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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/29/2010 at 4:26am
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The greatest asset of a tr/camp IMO is that it is a 'meeting of minds' coaches/players get together and converse, practice, debate etc. Its an opportunity for learning players to mix with a wide variety of players and standards. But don't lose sight of the fact, that the coaches, particularly the top/pro/ full time ones, are there to make money, and once the overheads are met, the more punters that attend, the more money they make. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/29/2010 at 1:04pm
In the US, I'm not sure this is true. I think that the top coaches here that run camps do some more out of the love of teaching than to make money. I suspect this is true with Danny Seemiller on the east coast and I know this is true with Stellan on the west coast. In our Stellan camps, we give all the money to Stellan. Even so, we don't pay for any of their expenses, which are considerable for the travel from southern California to Oregon. In addition, they explicitly limit the camp to 14 players, even though we have space for more, because they want to keep that intimate small-group feeling. Yesterday, I talked to Stellan on the phone because I was concerned about a couple of youths we have in Oregon, whom I thought showed great potential but lacked the finances to attend the camp. Stellan gave me authority to offer discount fees to those kids just so we could get them in.
If a coach is trying to make a living off of coaching, then that's motivation for charging more and running larger camps. If the coach doesn't need to make a living, then the focus is on teaching and they don't try to make so much money. Instead, they look for the most enthusiastic participants. I recall that after one of our prevoius camps, Stellan and Angie said that it was their favorite camp ever, anywhere, because the group (14 players) were all so enthustiastic, hard-working, and friendly.
By the way, AP, as I recall from earlier in this thread, your coaching rates are very inexpensive, so you must also qualify as one of those who coaches to teach, not to make money.
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Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/29/2010 at 5:34pm
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/29/2010 at 6:36pm
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I have been in fair share of training camps and private lessons in the past ten years, plus full-time training at Centro Deportivo National (CEDENA) in Buenos Aires as a member of their national jr. team. I would say in general you'd get better personal attention to your game in one-on-one lessons than group lessons, PROVIDED that your coach is qualified and really interested in teaching you with the best of his/her ability. I personally know many players around SoCal who have attended Stellan's numerous camps in L.A., and many who have taken extensive lessons from the best coaches around here for years. From my own observations the older you get, the less likely you will learn any technique from these lessons that you can actually execute in your game. Many of them actually become worse in their playing level, albeit their knowledge of the game has surely improved... One wealthy fellow, a friend of mine, actually paid for two week-long camps with Stellan, and countless lessons with every single prominent coach found here, but his game has not improved at all from five, ten years ago. He knew what he needs to improve, but he can no longer change his well-grooved "techniques" that allowed him to briefly break 2000-level years ago. He now plays at about 1800-level. I'd say if can afford it, enjoy the camps and the lessons for the social aspects of it but do not expect miracles unless you are a talented cadet or junior... |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 07/29/2010 at 6:55pm
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 07/30/2010 at 2:12am
| I think we can all come up with stories about people who have gone through extensive training as adults and failed to raise their level. That said, it would be a mistake to suppose that improvement is only for kids. It has to do with how people learn and how they approach learning. Adults have the potential (in general) to learn as easily as children, but they are less likely to really learn well because they are less flexible (mentally). Put simply, people get set in their ways as they grow older, so even when you say you want to learn, it's hard to force that flexibility on yourself. So if you have the self-discipline to make yourself be flexible, to really unlearn old habits and adapt to new habits, then you can learn well (and improve) at any age (up to the point your physical condition allows). |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 07/30/2010 at 12:15pm
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Benfb, I call that syndrom the RTC Factor. (Resistance to Change)
I have done a lot of things as an adult that people generally accept as much more demanding, like learn a language or two well. I think it is just easier to do as a child. Children do not stop and rationalize as much as adults and get more reps in before the adults get to that point. Then, there is the excellent point that you make about attitude. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 07/30/2010 at 12:26pm
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Tat from OOAK forum plays daily in his "Garage" and is in the San Diego area. He plays with anyone and everyone. Forum members in that area ought ot give him a visit if they don't mind playing with an U2000 LP attacking player who smiles with every hit. ------------- Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc |
Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/30/2010 at 2:10pm
good post!! totally agree!! |
Posted By: takaaki
Date Posted: 07/30/2010 at 2:14pm
totally agree. but the problem with kids, though, is that it's difficult to keep them focused. so, i think that adults could be much more efficient learners if they weren't so inflexible. |
Posted By: dimikkio
Date Posted: 07/31/2010 at 7:07am
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In Russia, in Moscow in particular, TT isn't very popular. There're about 1500 players on a rating list, and maybe twice that number have no rating but play regularly. Coaching is sporadic, so to say. Costs from 500 rbls~17USD/hour+table(on average 250-300 rbls~ 10 USD) to... Well, the sky's the limit, but I'd say upper average with a good master of sports ()it's a degree you get when your rating is above 900 national points) is 35 USD per hour + table cost. That lower price 17 USD is a mimimum which ain't easy to find, and when you find it it isn't worth the money. Unfortunately, practically no club system here, so we have to pay for the table hourly. Usually no discounts if you pay in advance, for a long period, etc. So as u see, pretty wild. |
Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 11:07am
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I've been paying about 9 dollars for a coach whose playing level seems to be at the top end of what HCMC has to offer, but it took me a long time to find him. He also speaks really good English and does his best to push me. I also pay 3 dollars to another coach whose level I still can't quite figure out. He's very capable at returning my shots to the places where they are supposed to go when we play drills and can easily beat me without me getting more than 2 or 3 points whilst not quite trying but I reckon that a younger more experienced player wouldn't have too many problems against him. With coaching being so cheap here I have gone through weeks were I would have a lesson with the cheaper coach at lunch time and then train with my other coach after work every day of the week. In three weeks, however, I am moving away from this paradise of cheap table tennis tuition and will move to Edinburgh, Scotland. If anybody knows and good coaches that are happy to take on a keen, motivated but highly inflexible adult learner please send me a PM here. Also, if anyone's got info on what I can expect to pay that would be great. The clubs there all look friendly and affordable but I couldn't find anything on one-on-one coaching for beginner-intermediate adults.
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Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 2:10pm
That's incredibly cheap. Price of a lunch sandwich in the US. In other words, every day affordable. |
Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 2:25pm
It's not a living wage for a coach in the US.  just enough to pay for lunch. -------------  Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 2:37pm
| It'S just a different world here, lots of people with decent education and skills don't make more than a dollar an hour. But lunch also starts at a dollar. |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 2:41pm
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So then $9/hour is a decent wage in Vietnam. Do you have to pay a table fee (like in clubs in China) as well? In Shenzhen China, rent is expensive and many clubs have folded as a result, so a table fee of about $5-7/hour is not unusual. But that gets you an air-conditioned, individually barrier-ed court with the ubiqutous red flooring.
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Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 2:52pm
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Yeah, I've got to pay the table fee as well but it's also relatively cheap. One club charges $1.25 per table per hour, the other two that I go to are also $1.25 but per person per day. Tables themselves are decent quality, flooring at times not the best but more than adaquete. Obviously table tennis culture in HCMC is incomparable to what (I would imagine) you find in any decent sized Chinese city but I think for a player just starting out this may well be one of the best cities in the world. Lots of clubs and lots of cheap coaches, so long as you can spot the hobby player trying to pass himself off as a coach to make some easy money off tourists.
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Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 2:57pm
==================== Sounds like playing TT in the US is cheap. Join a club, you pay an annual membership fee ($180 to $600 a year). No table fee. You can play countless hours a year. ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 3:03pm
Here's a well-known club in Huaqiangbei, Shenzhen that folded not long (a few months) after I took this picture early this summer. (You can't find these places unless you know. Well hidden behind the main streets.)  |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 3:05pm
Even cheaper if you play at home in the USA. Because of house sizes, playing at home is very feasible here. And friends will drive themselves to your house...
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Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 3:11pm
================== You don't get to play a lot of different players. ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: sandiway
Date Posted: 08/29/2016 at 3:14pm
In my experience, as many as you can handle ;) And, if you invite one at a time, nobody else calls "next" on the table. You can practice in peace.
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