KTL Red Diamond?
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Category: Equipment
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URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45933
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Topic: KTL Red Diamond?
Posted By: Speedplay
Subject: KTL Red Diamond?
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 4:00pm
I'm currently playing with the LKT Red Diamond rubber and I'm very pleased with it's performance. It is how ever not very durable and needs to be replaced too often for my likings. The main problem I have with it is that it loses it's tackiness.
So, now I'm curious if any one have tried the new version KTL Red Diamond (The name change is apparently due to some legal issues in China, LKT was already taken by some one else, so they changed it to KTL) and can share how it plays? I do think I've read that it is not tacky? Durability? Performance compared to the tacky LKT RD?
------------- The holy grail
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Replies:
Posted By: rawrtje
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 4:36pm
I've got two sheets coming in next week hopefully, can probably give you a "first impressions" compared to Red Diamond 1st and 2nd generation then.
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Posted By: umibozuuu
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 4:39pm
I've had a sheet of Red Diamond for a good 6 months hitting 10 hrs a week, and it's as good as new for all I care.. is it even supposed to be tacky??
------------- Samsonov Alpha CS:higher2.0 /PRO XP2.0
Galaxy E4 CS:LKT Red Diamond/729 Sky Wing 2.0
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Posted By: rawrtje
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 5:48pm
1st and 2nd generation Red Diamond are slightly tacky, yes. Another forum member mentioned he had some very tacky sheets, but all 5 or so of mine have been very, very mildly so (disappointing haha). 3rd generation is supposedly completely non-tacky, so it looks like this will be an adventure!
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 11/24/2011 at 9:06pm
Red Diamond stays tacky for years with a bit of spin max on it, more than enough to pick a ball when two years old
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Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 11/25/2011 at 8:28am
I'm currently using my second sheet of LKT RD and both of them have been mildly tacky, but the tack have worn off quickly. I certainly can't pick up a ball with the new sheet, and it's less then a month old.
Rawrtjes, look forward to hear your impressions about the KTL and how it compares to the "current" Red Diamond.
------------- The holy grail
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Posted By: rawrtje
Date Posted: 12/21/2011 at 9:08am
1st sheet: topsheet started coming apart from the sponge within 15 minutes of hitting. Unusable within the hour.2nd sheet: Used for an evening, then someone made off with that bat.
In any case, Speedplay, if you're still wondering what it's like, don't! It loops very easily and blocks better, but the sponge is much slower and loses a lot in the dynamicism of it all. Short game is worse. I prefer the 2nd generation (topsheet still tacky) to the 3rd. If you're not unhappy with how 1st gen RD plays, maybe Falco Life Expander or Spinmax?
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Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 12/21/2011 at 11:04am
I'm lucky enough to still be able to get hold of the 1st en RD, so I think I'll continue to use that. I also read that the third gen comes with a softer sponge, something that I'm not to excited about.
Thanks for the feedback, now I know for sure that I'm not interested in the third gen RD.
------------- The holy grail
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Posted By: IanMcg
Date Posted: 12/21/2011 at 8:08pm
Speedplay, tried any other cheaper T05 subs yet? Like Moon, T-88?
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Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 11:07am
Unfortunately not. I've heard from several people that Moon is closer to Tenergy then RD, so I have been tempted, but at the same time, RD gets the job done and it's cheap.
I also suspect that the people who says Moon is closer to T05 then RD are people who have tried, and liked, the later versions of T05, while I prefered the earlier version of T05, the one with a harder/denser and heavier sponge.
------------- The holy grail
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Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 2:14pm
Moon is definitely better than red diamond, but then that is not a high bar to clear.
------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 2:19pm
KTL Red Diamond (again, the 3rd gen, not the 2nd or 1nd gen) is a euro feel rubber, very fast, med throw and good spin. Definitely faster than moon or sun. I don't know about the 1st or 2nd Red Diamond. I am talking about KTL RD, not LKT RD, btw.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 2:23pm
Sounds very different to the earlier versions. What rubber would you compare it to?
Has anyone tried the 3rd gen KTL Black Power yet?
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 2:41pm
I had Apollo 2 on the same bat, definitely harder, heavier, lower throw vs the KTL RD.
I have BW2 RS and Shark 2 RS on different blade, so it's not a fair comparison..
But from what I can tell, the KTL RD is a rocket on my 1 ply, and this 1 ply is slower than my other 1 ply :D
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Posted By: Toprank
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 2:45pm
How close is Red Diamond to Galaxy Moon? Similarties, differences, and Comparison appreciated.
------------- CURRENT BLADE- Ross Leidy White Lightning
FH- Haifu Blue Whale II
BH- Xiom Vega Europe
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Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 3:26pm
assiduous wrote:
Moon is definitely better than red diamond, but then that is not a high bar to clear. |
Better for who, or what?
I like the LKT RD, because it's hard, dead in the short game, but brings the speed when I increase the power and it's easy to load up spin on pretty much any shot. The one thing I don't like is the lack of durability, the tackiness wears of to quick.
From what I have hear, moon is softer and bouncier, which certainly isn't what I'm looking for.
------------- The holy grail
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 12/22/2011 at 7:32pm
I recently found a very old sheet of Tenergy and it does have a really hard sponge. Speedplay do you use the sticky protector sheets on your RD? they should keep the tack on it.
Toprank, the original RD is harder than Moon, RD is plays similar to the old BWII without the excess weight or if you can imagine a DHS rubber in a faster than DHS 41 degree sponge
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Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 12/23/2011 at 8:07am
I don't use the sticky protection sheet, because when I was new to the sport, I used a sticky protection sheet on some tacky rubber (I think it was G 666) and the rubber got ruined straight away. Ever since then, I've been "affraid" to use sticky protection sheets. I do how ever use a regular protection sheet and always cleans the rubber with water when I have played.
------------- The holy grail
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 7:54am
So I ordered KTL Red Diamond and Black Power, and they arrived this morning. First off, the Black Power. It was in the new KTL packaging. However, the rubber inside had the old LKT stamp. Looked like one of the earlier versions to me. Black sponge, quite hard, quite heavy, slightly tacky. So that's disappointing. Is this an old version in a new package? Is there even a new version available, or are LKT buring through their old stock? As usual, confusion reigns. However, the Red Diamond was the new one. Rubber has the new KTL logo. Completely different to the previous RD versions. Much, much lighter. Light pink sponge, very soft. So soft it's difficult to cut. Strange texture to it, almost feels like cloth. The only other sponge I've seen with a textile-like texture was TinArc 3, but this is much lighter than that. The topsheet is thin, translucent, non-tacky. Reminds me a lot of the Shark 2 Red Sponge topsheet, but the pips are smaller. I forgot to weigh the uncut sheets, and they're both in the press now. I did weigh the cutoffs, and the RD was 16g, while the BP was 21g. So, scaling up, RD is 76% of the mass of BP. A LOT lighter, and a lot lighter than the original 1st gen RD. Sorry I didn't get accurate figures. :-(
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 9:14am
They both came with KTL protection sheets as well. Just to rub it in. And I've just taken the blade out of the press. I was wrong - Red Diamond is tacky. Enough to lift a ball for a second. Hmmmmm.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 10:04am
So that means that I've got the wrong ones. These must be the old versions, with tacky topsheets. Well. Nuts.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 10:59am
Sounds like the Red Diamond is the new one, they both might be.. No one said the Black Power has changed much.
The new Red Diamond is non tacky but I could imagine it would become tacky if you put a sticky protector sheet on it, have you used the sheet? If it's got the KTL topsheet is light and the porous sponge that's hard to cut it's the new one 100%, 1000% certain
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 11:55am
Andy, you got 1 new KTL Red Diamond and 1 old LKT BP Both KTL RD and BP are light and soft. I still haven't cut my BP, but the RD I've used it for few weeks..
Keep us updated with your findings vs Shark 2 RS. I want to compare with my comparo
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:07pm
No, I understand what has happened here. I have basically ordered the old versions. Maybe. Both packages are KTL. The Black Power rubber is LKT rubber, hard(ish) black sponge. The Red Diamond rubber is KTL rubber, soft pink sponge. They are both tacky. Looking at the packaging reveals some info. For example, my Red Diamond package looks like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-KTL-RED-DIAMOND-Pips-in-Table-Tennis-Rubber-Red-/290700189873?pt=UK_Sports_TableTennis_RL&var=&hash=item896275444a - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-KTL-RED-DIAMOND-Pips-in-Table-Tennis-Rubber-Red-/290700189873?pt=UK_Sports_TableTennis_RL&var=&hash=item896275444a However, the one I (probably) wanted (perhaps) looks like this (maybe): http://ttnpp.com/shop/ktl-red-diamond-p-544.html - http://ttnpp.com/shop/ktl-red-diamond-p-544.html Both KTL, but the 2nd one has the "non-adhesive" text on the front. Also, the second one has a purple KTL logo, instead of the black one I have. So, are KTL doing tacky and non-tacky versions of each rubber now? Just to add a bit more confusion, here is another type of packaging: http://www.eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=3300 - http://www.eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=3300 "Strong friction" is written on the cover. So, for Red Diamond, there are (at least): LKT version, original sponge. LKT version, Gold Cake sponge. KTL version, no text on front, black KTL logo, tacky topsheet, soft sponge (I have this one). KTL version, "non-adhesive" written on the package, purple KTL logo. KTL version, "Strong friction" written on the package purple KTL logo. But the last two I've listed there have the same chinese characters, so maybe they are just different translations of the same thing? Or - maybe the text isn't actually written on the packaging. Maybe it's just in the promotional images sent out by KTL, and all the packaging is blank? Arrrrrrrgh!
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:11pm
bluebucket wrote:
Sounds like the Red Diamond is the new one, they both might be.. No one said the Black Power has changed much.
The new Red Diamond is non tacky but I could imagine it would become tacky if you put a sticky protector sheet on it, have you used the sheet? If it's got the KTL topsheet is light and the porous sponge that's hard to cut it's the new one 100%, 1000% certain
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Honestly, I haven't got a clue.I'm talking about fresh sheets. I just took the protective film off (not the sheet which comes with it) after I'd glued the cut rubber onto a blade. And they're both tacky. This RD can lift a ball for quite a while. The topsheet and sponge are exactly as you describe. But I can't describe it as non-tacky. Maybe it will wear off quickly?
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:11pm
The new one has the thickness and hardness thing on the packet and can be Strong friction or non-adhesive afaik (purple logo). The one I've used wasn't tacky in anyway, it's just like Tenergy's grip, doesn't look like Tenergy or Shark II's rough surface but it grabs the ball even in heavy humidity perfectly so it does have some traction
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:16pm
dual700 wrote:
Andy, you got 1 new KTL Red Diamond and 1 old LKT BP Both KTL RD and BP are light and soft. I still haven't cut my BP, but the RD I've used it for few weeks..
Keep us updated with your findings vs Shark 2 RS. I want to compare with my comparo
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That's the best explanation so far. So what was the old BP doing in a KTL package? Well, here is the NEW KTL packaging for BP, with purple colour scheme: http://ttnpp.com/shop/ktl-black-power-p-543.html - http://ttnpp.com/shop/ktl-black-power-p-543.html My BP packaging doesn't look like that. It looks almost like the old one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-LKT-BLACKPOWER-Pips-in-Table-Tennis-Rubber-Black-/261009308398?pt=UK_Sports_TableTennis_RL&var=&hash=item82696c7168 - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-LKT-BLACKPOWER-Pips-in-Table-Tennis-Rubber-Black-/261009308398?pt=UK_Sports_TableTennis_RL&var=&hash=item82696c7168 BUT! It does have KTL on the packaging, and not LKT. So I think that KTL are still selling the old version of BP, in a slightly modified package (with KTL logo on the front, not the old LKT). But it's old stock, so the rubber still has LKT on. Dual, was your RD tacky when fresh from the package?
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:18pm
You didn't order from TTNPP?
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:18pm
Yep, both mines have the hardness printed on the cover. Like this http://ttnpp.com/shop/ktl-black-power-p-543.html
Both are very grippy, non tacky.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:19pm
bluebucket wrote:
The new one has the thickness and hardness thing on the packet and can be Strong friction or non-adhesive afaik (purple logo). The one I've used wasn't tacky in anyway, it's just like Tenergy's grip, doesn't look like Tenergy or Shark II's rough surface but it grabs the ball even in heavy humidity perfectly so it does have some traction |
Well, my RD package doesn't have the text on the front, and doesn't have the thickness/hardness thing. But it's really tacky. Thanks KTL. I assume your name change was the latest step in your mission to confuse your customers to the point of madness.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:20pm
bluebucket wrote:
You didn't order from TTNPP? |
No, from tnha on ebay.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:20pm
Andy, maybe my perception is different from others.. My tacky is sticky, ball bounces 2 - 3 and sticks Grippy is like Shark 2 RS, Tenergy, KTL RD.
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:23pm
Well I should guess that you have the latest version of the tacky Red Diamond, maybe that's also a great rubber
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:26pm
dual700 wrote:
Andy, maybe my perception is different from others.. My tacky is sticky, ball bounces 2 - 3 and sticks Grippy is like Shark 2 RS, Tenergy, KTL RD.
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Yeah, I get you. With this RD, ball bounces 3 times and stops. If I press down on a ball with it, it lifts the ball for 1-2 seconds. Straight out of the packet, Shark2 can't lift a ball at all. That's a grippy rubber. No tack at all.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:27pm
bluebucket wrote:
Well I should guess that you have the latest version of the tacky Red Diamond, maybe that's also a great rubber |
You are such an optimist! Keep talking, you're cheering me up no end!
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: bluebucket
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:34pm
haha, did you ever use a sheet of Red Diamond that wasn't a good rubber?. Fair enough the new non tacky one is something else but that's ok. It's cheap and I know in your soul you wont be happy until you try that one.. So get on TTNPP and order it. In my experience when things like this happen in life and they often do.
You really need to just suck up the mistake and continue on with your plan
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:43pm
Andy, clean it a couple of times with rubber cleaner, see if it's still tacky... Both batches I got for RD, they are very grippy, both excellent, no variation whatsoever.
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Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:49pm
AndySmith wrote:
bluebucket wrote:
You didn't order from TTNPP? |
No, from tnha on ebay. |
Same source ;)
------------- Rosewood V FL
Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH
Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH
Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:49pm
I know, I know. News flash - Chinese manufacturer in confusing products shocker. You heard it here first.
I should know better by now. Will give Ttnpp a go next time.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:54pm
jonyer1980 wrote:
AndySmith wrote:
bluebucket wrote:
You didn't order from TTNPP? |
No, from tnha on ebay. |
Same source ;) |
LOL.
Well, I can't blame the shop. I didn't specify which of the 2065 variations I wanted.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 04/24/2012 at 12:57pm
Can I recommend someone else? http://stores.ebay.com/CHINA-TRAIT?_rdc=1
Have been a loyal customer for 3 years... Just email him to get what you want, even though his ebay stores has small collection of table tennis stuff. He does have them or can get them at excellent price.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/26/2012 at 5:59am
Well, I used it for an hour last night on the Expert. The sponge is really soft, the topsheet really soft, thin and tacky. So it all made for a very slow experience. I had the old LKT Black Power on the other side, which was far faster. In that configuration, I could only use it as a forehand rubber. It requires a cybernetic wrist to get enough force to use it on the backhand side. Next step - forehand on the Calix.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/30/2012 at 6:18pm
Ok then, had a long training session with the KTL Red Diamond tonight. It's still tacky, and can still lift a ball for a few seconds. I've just cleaned it, and it's still going strong. I didn't like it on the OSP Expert, but on the Calix it worked really well. It's a combo of soft sponge, slight tack, slight bounce. Very forgiving when using. Like an easy-to-use H3, or a lower-powered BW2. It was the easiest rubber I've ever used to counterloop with, and it even smashed well. If I had to point out a weakness, it's just a bit too slow for an all-out attack game, and I had to adjust my blocking a bit. That could equally be Calix's slow low gear though.
bluebucket wrote:
Well I should guess that you have the latest version of the tacky Red Diamond, maybe that's also a great rubber |
You were right all along. Now, the only problem is can I order some more and get the same rubber? Or will it be totally different next time?
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 05/15/2012 at 10:13am
Small update. Really happy with this new version of RD on my forehand, so I ordered some more sheets for backup. Uncut, RD weighs in at 55g. Cut to the Calix, it's 39g. Very light. I also ordered ANOTHER sheet of Black Power, but this time made sure I got the new KTL one with "Golden Cake Sponge + Strong Friction Rubber" printed on the front of the package. This one doesn't seem as radical a departure from the old LKT BP as the KTL RD is to the old LKT RD (if you see what I mean). But it is totally non-tacky. Black sponge, uncut weight is 61g, cut to Calix it's 45g.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 05/15/2012 at 10:30am
Did you get the same exact rubber or is there variation? Same seller? Please post your findings on BP. I haven't used mine, too lazy
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 05/15/2012 at 11:26am
dual700 wrote:
Did you get the same exact rubber or is there variation? Same seller? Please post your findings on BP. I haven't used mine, too lazy
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Ha ha! Well, I used the same seller, and got exactly the same rubber, so that worked out quite well. Maybe one day they will stop making this version and I will only be able to get the non-tacky one.... Will be using the new BP next week at training, so will be back with news.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 05/20/2012 at 1:39am
Any update on KTL BP?
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 05/20/2012 at 3:57am
dual700 wrote:
Any update on KTL BP? |
Training session is tomorrow night, so will be back with news after that.
------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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