"tuning" - completely legal?
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Topic: "tuning" - completely legal?
Posted By: chronos
Subject: "tuning" - completely legal?
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 12:14am
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I bought the haifu seamoon "solubility bond" planning to try to revive old sheets of h3 neo provincial for training - for tournaments I'll just use fresh sheets. I put it on an h3 sheet to see what would happen. There were the usual tuning effects - the rubber domed, as can happen with rubber cement, and perhaps there was some effect in the sponge, I don't really know, I didn't actually attach the sheet, I just wanted to see what would happen (I half expected nothing would happen). But here is something interesting - after the tuner dried, guess what, there's a layer of rubber cement left on the rubber, or something resembling it. So technically, this is glue. Yeah, that's right - as I understand it, you can use rubber cement as long as the VOCs air out, and it also expands the sponge / stretches the topsheet, modifies it, and who knows what else. In this sense there is utterly no difference in the rules between rubber cement and this chemical as long as the VOCs are the same when the racket is tested, and so long as its "glue" (leaves a layer on the sponge, the rules say nothing but "glue" can be put on the sponge) - can someone say otherwise? This thread will get ugly but interested to hear opinions here on "yet another tuning thread." |
Replies:
Posted By: chronos
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 12:16am
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In this sense, its very interesting that this tuning product has the term "bond" in the name. Oh also there is a warning on the label: "Keep out of children" |
Posted By: chronos
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 12:20am
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Along these lines - I saw a very high level player gluing rubber with a water based glue, and the rubber (tenergy) curled into a tall "U" from that glue - illegal? How is "glue" defined? |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 12:25am
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Technically, the use of any glue (including rubber cement) which stretches the rubber sandwich is illegal as you are physically modifying the topsheet by expanding it. And heck, I still maintain that under the ITTF's wording the use of a roller to stretch your sheet to fit is "technically" illegal. It is fun for me to harass some of the older guys who still use Rubber Cement exclusively; I jokingly call them cheaters. Especially when they fresh glue some sheets and play that day. But do I care? Not really. However, the new sheets of Boost TS and XuShaoFa 999 LSZ factory tuned I just glued to my Virtuoso are completely legal. And I bet they will shrink when I remove them in a few months. So if I make them fit my blade or my spare again, am I really cheating (so long as I don't violate the 4mm or 3ppm VOC rules)? The price we pay for compliance... ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 12:46am
Not to be a pest, but technically you're incorrect. There is a thread here within MYTT in which Adham Sharara explicitly states that it is perfectly legal to use rubber cement to glue rubber, as long as it airs out enough to pass a VOC test. I'd try to find it and post it here... but I'm far too lazy for that. I've read it many, many times and showed it to others, so I know it's there, though.
You may have them there.  EDIT: Or, I guess another way of saying it is, technically you are correct; however, the president of the ITTF doesn't give a  .------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
icontek wrote:Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 7:57am
| chronos - do you see any speed glue effect of this Seamoon oil on the rubber? |
Posted By: Speedplay
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 11:10am
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Anton (not Andy as I accidentially called you in another tread, sorry about that) I've also read the same statement from Adham, but, this don't make it a rule and the rules leaves no exceptions to rubbers being aired out. So Icontec is right here. I vaguely remember Adham admitting this later on, not sure. His point was, they can't detect it if the VOC's have been aired out, unless you break the 4mm thickness rule. ------------- The holy grail |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 11:52am
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While Adham (here on this forum) did imply that using RC is ok as long as you air it out before attaching/playing he had earlier said this: (lifted from an original post by MyTT member Fixpoint 
http://www.ittf.com/stories/Stories_detail.asp?Year=2008&General_Catigory=Menus%2C+General%2C+Rubber&ID=16824 - http://www.ittf.com/stories/Stories_detail.asp?Year=2008&General_Catigory=Menus%2C+General%2C+Rubber&ID=16824 or http://www.ittf.com/ittf_misc/Racket_Control_2009.pdf - http://www.ittf.com/ittf_misc/Racket_Control_2009.pdf Adham Sharara, ITTF President ITTF�s Firm Position as of 1 January 2009
Players The ITTF will test rackets at all ITTF events. The racket testing protocols will constantly improve in order to be ready to detect all illegal activities. A racket that passes the test today may not pass the test tomorrow because the testing devices are constantly being upgraded. Players should not worry as long as their racket is legal and meets the ITTF criteria. The ITTF will test for all elements of the ITTF rules relating to rackets and racket coverings such as flatness, consistency, thickness, glossiness, VOC presence, additives presence (Boosters and Tuners and other additives), stretching of the rubber after approval, etc. The limit allowable for VOC emissions will be fixed at a much lower tolerance level on the detection devices detecting VOCs. The Enez device will continue to be used to detect VOCs, in addition new devices will be employed to detect much lower levels of VOCs as well as the presence of other compounds found in additives. As of 1 July 2009, the ITTF will conduct ONLY AFTER-THE-MATCH racket tests, with punitive consequences for failed tests. There will be the possibility of a pre-match voluntary test according to the Racket Control procedures.
ADVICE TO PLAYERS: Do not add anything to you racket. If you suspect the presence of VOCs in your racket covering air it for 72 hours out of the packaging before using (and remove the protective plastic sheet if any). Use only water-based glues or VOC-free Pressure Sensitive Adhesive sheets (PSA). Only clean your racket with water, do not use any other substances. Adding natural substances such as oils, etc., is illegal and shall be detected. Do not stretch your rubber; you must use the racket covering as it has been approved by the ITTF and as it comes from the producer. Be very careful with the thickness level of your racket covering. Make sure you do not exceed 4mm including the layer or layers of glue. You should use a thin layer of glue to avoid exceeding the thickness limit. Make sure the surface is flat and does not bulge. Sometimes the racket covering is too thick from the factory. It is your responsibility not to use it. Seems pretty clear that stretching (with anything, including rubber cement or a roller) is completely illegal. I can't wait until the ITTF tries to ban the sale of rubber rollers  ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: Anton Chigurh
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 12:08pm
Yes... hence my edit about 5 minutes after my initial post. ------------- Neo H3 40D| Offensive S | Tenergy 80 |
Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 1:34pm
using the word, "advice", makes it somewhat ambiguous on some of those points ------------- Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 2:19pm
| Rubber cement and other voc glue can be used as speed glue/booster/tuning, more layers more effect. So I don't see a difference between them, but please do the glue job at home. I hate a**holes that stink up the club by gluing in the club. I mean, if I wanted to go to an opium den I would do that. I go to a tt club to play. |
Posted By: chronos
Date Posted: 06/26/2012 at 9:53pm
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Great replies here. Again the (frustrating) limits of the rules are revealed; I was also implicitly responding to Shahara's unofficial "ok" of rubber cement; according to the rules its illegal, but qualitatively no different from the latest haifu tuner? But the rules seem pretty clear (the use of the term "advice" is disappointing, but thats an aside) - they don't allow for rubber cement in their intent even if "semi-official" statements say otherwise; something like this tuner is obviously not allowed. Note that the ITTF doesn't certify any glues as 'VOC-free', I see where its all going, but how am I supposed to know? The curling of the rubber is a cue I suppose. In terms of intent I'm obviously guilty. To say a little more about the haifu tuner for those who are curious - I tried the dianchi booster and it seems to react with the *glue*, others have said that without glue nothing seems to happen, I didn't experiment without glue but with it there was an effect. Unfortunately 3x layers of WBG + tuner adds an easy 10 grams and is also too much of a hassle, rule breaking and other issues aside. That's the extent of my review on that. Still I love H3NP and I found some sheets dying on me though moving / regluing them could easily have been the culprit. I'm keeping my current sheet on my blade until its dead so will see what happens. But out of curiosity I got this tuner and the effect is different - you put it directly on the sponge, and on h3 (non-neo) it completely curled the rubber, 1 layer and 1 hour. Like a speed glue layer? I wouldn't be surprised if this is a mix of speed glue and veg / other oils. In parallel, I put it on a nittaku neo h3 which comes with no corners cut off - that rubber is awesome untuned! Softer, juicy topsheet and 38-feeling sponge. After tuning it was clearly very tensioned in the topsheet but it became too soft. I took it off and maybe ruined it with the tuning, it was just too soft and bouncy for my tastes. After my h3np dies I'll probably just use this rubber untuned but will retry my formerly tuned sheet, hopefully its firmer now. I'll post some pics when I next put it on, I got this from iruiru and its worth checking out I think, topsheet is a deep black, sticky, and doesn't oxidize. No glue layer on the sponge. |