ZJK vs. Wang Hao WTTC 2013 LGL commenting
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Topic: ZJK vs. Wang Hao WTTC 2013 LGL commenting
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Subject: ZJK vs. Wang Hao WTTC 2013 LGL commenting
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:08pm
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In Chinese... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yowOpK-_ls - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yowOpK-_ls Edit: found a much better quality vid from janus, exactly the same version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUg15ECMARE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUg15ECMARE Some interesting things he said: 1. ZJK's game is difficult for WH because he has stronger legs, which makes superior/more stable in the rally away from the table. Regarding this, Liu also said Ma Long is harder for ZJK because he moves quicker even though covers less area than ZJK. 2. ZJK's BH defense is also better -- he can withstand several direct hits from Wang Hao, which Ma Long can't do. On top of that, ZJK is also better in turning defense into offense after a couple of blocks. (I'd say that's a deadly combo  )3. Surprisingly, Liu says both ZJK and WH's shot quality is significantly higher than ML (1st time I heard something like that from anyone, let alone the head coach of the CNT!). He further explains that Zhang and Wang's shots are lower and closer to the net, thus more likely to win points (that's how "quality" is defined, I guess  ), even though their shots are riskier at the same time. This is why rallies are shorter between ZJK and WH while Ma Long tends to have long rallies. |
Replies:
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:11pm
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Any comments from Ma Long since the end of the tournament? ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:17pm
"In today's semifinal, I feel that I had a mediocre performance. Haven't Wang Hao played well, I may still not feel particularly good in the match." "Actually, I have opportunities in the first two sets. Today, my ball handling was no match to what Wang Hao did." "I feel that there is an opposition but what is important is to look on myself. My performance in the semifinal rounds of world competitions is just poor." from http://tabletennista.com/2013/5/ma-long-feels-a-little-pity-video/ - http://tabletennista.com/2013/5/ma-long-feels-a-little-pity-video/ ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
jrscatman wrote:Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:17pm
I haven't watched the entire vid but I'm pretty sure it's not in there. I remember reading some online Chinese news report that says Ma Long commented he doesn't seem to play well in semis of Worlds.. LOL year right genius  |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:25pm
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So Ma Long is saying it's mental and LGL is saying there technique issues with his game against Wang Hao. So shouldn't LGL - have fixed these issues as he is Ma Long coach right? ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:36pm
Liu is just saying ZJK and WH takes more risks to finish point quicker, which he defines as "quality". I think it's hard to change ML's style to play like that, and he might even play worse that way. Besides, Ma Long doesn't have to take risky shots against most pros except those two, so he just needs to adjust his game when playing ZJK and WH. He has beaten both a few times at least so he has the tools. It's mostly the mental game he's lacking imo. |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:38pm
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I do not think LGL wants ma long to dominate. I think LGL likes strong egos because ultimately they dominate given equal skills. Ma Long is modest and I have had for a while the impression LGL considers him as a wimp and does the strict minimum for him, telling him the obvious without working much to raise his game.
------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:48pm
Maybe Liu is disappointed because he gave Ma Long so many chances at world stage, yet Ma keep losing when it counts, to Chinese and even non-Chinese... |
Posted By: chu_bun
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:51pm
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I think people read too much into their techniques. It may be as simple as who bring their A game on a certain day. Apparently, ML did not when he played WH in the SF. But on any given day, I am willing to bet my morgage 3:7 odd on ML beating WH and 1:1 on ML beating ZJK.
------------- Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH. |
Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:53pm
Yes, Ma Long is a safe bet as long as it's not the Olympics & WTTC ------------- Butterfly MPS FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
Posted By: NoFootwork
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 4:57pm
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I thought Ma Long has a winning head to head record against everyone on the CNT except against Wang Hao.
This (with English subtitles) discusses the various crisis that Wang Hao, Ma Lin and Zhang Jike went thru in their careers and the steps LGL took. I wonder if he has done the same (or will do something similar) for Ma Long or has already put him under the Hao Shuai, Chen Qi category and will focus more on the upcoming players such as FZD, YA, FB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gheycnSBvA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gheycnSBvA
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Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 5:21pm
Ma Long is only 25 so I don't think Liu will put him under Hao Shuai category yet. He'll have at least a few more years to prove himself until Rio 2016. His clock is ticking.. |
Posted By: popperlocker
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 5:32pm
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Ma Long had a successful tournament, took down a hot Timo and Koki. Why you guys constantly bashing him? If he lost to a world 100 like Ma Lin in an early round, he would deserve the bashing. Did you guys lose money in a bet? that's why you're pissed at Ma Long?
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Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 5:58pm
+1 to this. The guy makes it to the semi finals, he loses to a teammate who is currently ranked #4 in the world, gave JZK a better match than XX did in the previous round and everybody is "What's wrong with Ma Long?" I think everybody is trying to crack the code of what happened. IMO it's really as simple as all these guys (WH, ML, ZJK, XX) are really really good, very close in skill and on any given day if they're hot probably can beat one another. It just wasn't Ma Long's day and he got bet. Simple as that.
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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 6:28pm
Agreed. Whao played very well this time. Better than usually and it was his day and not Malong's day. MaLong himself said whao's handling was very good. Lgl told about the arc. Wh's bh was better than before. It is the time i watched whao playing with lower bh arc. The best whao match in the last years. -------------  EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh);  InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 6:37pm
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I don't buy this "random results between equals and it all depends who is hot on the day" theory for a minute. The first time it happens (WTTC 2009) then maybe. The second time (WTTC 2011) then you ask questions. The third time (WTTC 2013) then I think you know... Turn it around. If it was all random, then what were the chances that ZJK was the guy that got hot when it counted in the last three WTTC's / OG's? And we have consistently seen WH handling things second best and ML / XX struggling, nothing random at all in the biggest events. When you put it all into the context that ZJK was once thrown out of the CNT because of arrogance and that LGL has consistently said that ML is mentally weak and battles self doubt then it all makes sense. I don't think this is rocket science. |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 6:49pm
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Ma long wasn't mentally weak at all in the whao match. He was able to change gears when things were going to a 4-0.
He was able to turn the 4th set to his side going back to a fierce fh pivoting when the bh to bh rally was facing an inspired whao bh. But whao service was very good and his fh didnt fail at the time to get in. Everything that day worked to whao and Ma Long couldnt beat him. But he tried confident and changing gears. Just to feel MaLong frustration to realize it is not the day but your opponents day. This is to watch the match. Not to invent theories. Ma long himself said his handling wasn't able to beat what whao did. He is a honest guy. I had never seen whao bh flat blocking the way he did it or bh loop with such a low arc. His fh get in was also lot better than before. This is what happened. ------------- EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 7:18pm
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My take on the WH-ML semi was that ML was mediocre in the first two games and poor in the third. Then once the match was lost (barring a miracle) at 0-3, it released the pressure and he finally relaxed and played better. When he came back to 2-3 and was in contention again, he froze up and totally imploded. That last game was painful to watch. Basically every part of his game disintegrated, including his f/h where he looped two half long serves halfway up the net while stumbling backwards. |
Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 7:41pm
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Ma long wasn't pressured. He is having frustration because his game does not end in a winning point. He is playing his fh and this time wh is able to win the point with flat active bh blocking. In the meantime wh service placement and fh entering is very good. The bh to bh rally what is supposedly to be in a 50/50 result is going whs side. And wh is not failing this time. When his fh gets in he is scoring. This match reminds the lgl kongl wttc final. Lgl was facing the kl bh and at the same time kl was scoring with his service and 3rd ball fh. Lgl lost with frustration about his more offensive game that time. At the end Lgl also looked desintegrated. This was in 1995. Then Lgl won the olympics in 1996 and some years later the wttc. ------------- EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: Danhs1
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 8:47pm
| Why does it have to an either/or thing? It's a fact that WH played great. I've never seen him play that well, maybe it discouraged ML. I do think that even considering WH's play, ML at his normal level wins the match. When he pulled himself together in games 4 and 5 it was obvious, WH was still playing great but it didn't matter. The last game really was painful to watch. If that wasn't choking, what IS choking?? Actually I feel so bad for ML I'll probably be rooting for him next time, I've been a ZJK fan so far. |
Posted By: Mike7381
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 10:33pm
| To be honest, I hate ZJK because of his attitude. I also do not think he is superior than ML and Xu Xin, I think ZJK can beat WH mainly because WH doesn't have a super deadly forehand as Xu Xin. I like all of them except ZJK. |
Posted By: assiduous
Date Posted: 05/21/2013 at 11:46pm
Is Jagged translating this? Please say yes! ------------- puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out |
Posted By: xzws
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 12:12am
That's most likely not the case. The rumor has it that he was kicked out because of gambling. |
Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 12:41am
That's right. And even against Wang Hao, it is pretty close - 9 wins to 11 losses. Ma Long has dominated ZJK with 5 wins and 2 losses in the ITTF approved Mens Singles events.
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Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 12:48am
Take a look at 33:38 |
Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 12:49am
The poor guy hasn't even played in Olympics Singles event ever. At the time of both the 2008 and 2012 Olympics, Ma Longs was one of the top 2 players in World rankings. But since ITTF has this weird rule of selecting players 6 months in advance, he was not left off the squad because 2 (3 in case of 2008 Olympics) other Chinese players that were automatically selected because of their rankings at that earlier time. Since Olympics have strict cutoff of number of players from each country, Ma Long has had to sit out.
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Posted By: snerdly
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 1:38am
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From the "Lui Guoliang- Psychological Warfare" vid; "One or two chances is enough. No more is needed. More opportunities may not be duly seized, and that will lead to problems. One of my experiences over the years is that the one who wastes opportunities is punished by the destiny." |
Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 1:51am
Hmmm ... How many chances did Ma Lin get? And how many WTTC singles title has he won?
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Posted By: snerdly
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 2:02am
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How many chances? I didn't keep a count; how many WTTC singles titles doesn't require counting. Led to problems? Punished by destiny?
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Posted By: Takadigi
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 2:08am
Problems? Punishment? Ma Lin is one of the richest TT players in China. Has an excellent social life and is very likely going to assume an important position within the Chinese Table Tennis Association after his retirement from active competitive play.
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Posted By: snerdly
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 2:24am
Taken out of context; the problem and punishment for failing to seize opportunity is failure to obtain the prize, i.e., the WTTC singles title. Ma Lin wasted his chances for that. |
Posted By: bros
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 10:44am
+1 . I think Ma Long better back with TBS , his shot is under Whao( not feel heavy ) compare with Whao shot. |
Posted By: xzws
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 10:49am
Please read between the lines. The video never really talked about the true reason of kicking him out. You don't dismiss a player only because he is arrogant. There must have been a particular incident. Several journalists tried to ask ZJK and his family about the true story. They always evaded the question and only would say that ZJK wasn't mature enough and made some mistake(s). There are many rumors about it. All the versions I have seen have something to do with gambling. |
Posted By: thethinker
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 9:04pm
| Perhaps I should start a new topic with this question..., but at the risk of anger some penholders (I play ph myself), I will bring back the old question of the future of penhold. We remember that poor ML got beat up by WLQ and WH by ZJK in the finals constantly, plus ZJK went thru the two top penholders easily at this world. Can ph have a future and can there be a ph world champion? Sh players have weakness but ph players just seem unable to play against their weakness. For example, ZJK has a hard time against a quicker player like ML and YA, but WH, ML, XX don't paly fast enough to win against ZJK. They are all powerful players but too slower against ZJK. If they become faster their power go down and their forehand become weak, too weak to win. Can any ph or any player be fast and powerful?...Just some random thoughts and concern for my other playing style after seeing the world. |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 9:17pm
------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: thethinker
Date Posted: 05/22/2013 at 9:40pm
| I think the same would apply to both ph and sh. ML is quick (i.e. connecting one stroke to the next, and not necessary just topspin) but his power (quality of shot) is lower than ZJK. If he load up with power like ZJK he will be slower, right? I am just asking the question. It seems very hard, close to impossible to be quick and powerful unless you are way above the others. The answer so far tells me to choose power over quickness if you want to win, until ML wins of course! |
Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 7:07am
Absolutely, if LGL says on camera that ZJK was sent back to his provincial team for being "arrogant, conceited and impetuous", I will read between the lines and conclude that he has a gambling problem and that he had an affair with another team member (as someone else posted). I've also been around long enough to know that everybody talks in coded messages and doesn't say what they mean. But in this case, as crazy as it sounds, I perhaps think that LGL may have been telling the truth to fool everyone. I know, I know...  |
Posted By: tianhai
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 7:49am
I think you misunderstood Liu. He said ZJK's shot is higher quality than malong's because the amount of spin zjk impart on the ball is much more than malong's shot, thus causing the ball not to bounce up when it touches the opponent's court. the ball bounce up a little, accelerate forward and then sink downwards immediately. this effect is caused by the amount of spin zjk imparts. therefore, it's difficult to defence against zjk's shot.
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Posted By: ejmaster
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 8:51am
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The overall wttc impression is that whao played a new and better level than what he usually plays. And particullarly shined against MaL with a very well placed service better bh motion and more focused play.
Zjk prevailed with awsome solid bh play, service and receive consistency and playing rythm. Ma Long service receive was weak and faced a stronger whao at the wrong time. There were no mental issues but better technical aspects what mean a lot of work behind. Whao prepared a stronger technical play. I realized zjk also raised his bh play level even more. ------------- EJ Club. MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 9:10am
Now see, this is the kind of stuff we really should be covering much more in mytt. Here in the U.S., gambling organizations i.e. mafia, gangsters can have a basketball player or hockey player in their pockets. The player does not necessarily have to dump the match. He can play in such a way where his team wins by 5 points rather than destroying the opposing team (point shaving). When a sport gets big enough, point shaving even happens in youth soccer, little league baseball, etc. I wonder if TT has reached this level in China. I know it happens in lawn tennis.
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Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 9:21am
I agree with this. You know leading into the tournament, I've always been impressed with Ma Long's & ZJK's backhand counterdrives. They're compact, quick & fast. However, in WH's matches, seemed as though Ma Long couldn't handle his backhand and ZJK excelled in this area against WH. Perhaps ZJK has the best backhand of all of them? His run-around backhand banana flick on service return is amazing. It got me to thinking, would you say that at this top, elite level the difference, stroke wise, (obviously psychology and ability to perform in the clutch is huge) the player with the strongest backhand has the best chance to prevail? Seems to me at this level, all players have amazing forehands and they frequently get into backhand counterdriving rallies to avoid the opponent's forehand. Thus, it's hit more often and the player with the better backhand has the best chance to win. Just a theory. Anybody feel free to poke holes in it. ;)
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 10:44am
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When most people are impressed with Ma Long's forehand, it has much more to do with Ma Long's counterlooping ability, not the actual stroke quality. None of us have blocked Ma Long's forehand so none of us can tell how much spin he generates. But he is the best counterlooper in the world. Sometimes, ZJK and Xu Xin get there but that is Ma Long's world. What his CNT opponents can do better is that knowing his game, they can play to his weaknesses better than others can. He often cannot keep the ball short more than once in a rally, especially on his forehand. Yan An exploited this. Wang Hao exploited a weakness with reverse service receive (at least for that one match).
Hopefully, some of the people who always talk about trying to loop like Ma Long will note that his pace is not the only way to win the point. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: xzws
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 4:35pm
Did I ask you to find the gambling problem from the video alone? Stop trying to be funny and please speak straightforward in a logical way, because you are not funny at all. Ask youself this: Do you see an enough reason to dismiss a world champion material from the national team and to almost end his career? Did the video clearly explain that? If you just want to accept whatever LGL says in the video and don't like to get additional info, it's your choice and I don't blame you. I was providing an alternative view based on what I have read elsewhere. I clearly said it was a rumor, but at least to me it answers some natural questions surrounding the mysterious dismissal of ZJK. |
Posted By: xzws
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 4:55pm
The rumors I heard about ZJK was NOT about match fixing. And I wouldn't believe he had gambled on TT. Never heard of gambling on TT in China. On the other hand, the underground gambling on local and international soccer games is quite popular in China. DISCLAIMER: I am not saying ZJK gambled on any sports. |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 5:00pm
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Off topic.
Ratings Central has not updated the match results between Jike Zhang & Wang Hao.
It has been quite a few days now. ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 5:40pm
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I've been listening to a lot of coaches comment and even LGL on the WTTC So many words are use about the Mentalality state of the players. "心态" or Hsin Tai. So for the ones that think there is no problem with the players, LGL and co thinks otherwise |
Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 5:41pm
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ZJK gambled away around RMB 200 000 once. And that was the big one for LGL to ban him from CNT. source - CNT coach |
Posted By: anguye9
Date Posted: 05/23/2013 at 7:11pm
| I have read all comments on this forum and decide to post for the first time. I think I understand what exactly happened to ml failure because I experienced it. I have play table tennis on and off for over 15 years. My style include block and attack from both wings. My forehand is way stronger than than my backhand but my natural shots, shots that I started out to learn table tennis is my backhand. It is the shot I can rely on anyday. However, when I got nervous during tournament, I can become stiff and can't use my forehand to loop. It the case to ml. Over the years I watched him play, when he lost bad to players that he normally would beat them, he got too nervous and didn't play his normal level. Ones can see throughout this world tournament he had avoided using backhand or missing many of the back hand against all of his opponents. They all know it but wh is the one that make him felt awkward and completely break down. It was a sad truth and ml knew it. He become more nervous because he faced opponents that he had lost to before. From niiwa to tb to wh especially wh who beat him twice at the same stage. Wh definitely played well. Maybe the best since 09. Wh game is always stable and balance. Once ml got nervous and be himself, he might as well lost the match before it was start. I think ml can only able to play 60 percent and wh played at 100 percent. Zy played the game just like wh balance and well control but better wh in blocking aspect. In a long run, zy will beat wh more. It all come down personality. Ml is introvert. He want to win badly so he become nervous when facing challenge matchs. His game is pure power. Sometime he got nervous he can't relax thus he messed up his backhand. He have been practice bh more lately but his forehand is a natural shot just like wl. So in conclusion, ml lost to wh because of mental issue. He is a professional player and played thousand matchs but still get nervous because he is a human. I'm sure we all get nervous and perform lower out level during our Tt match. Please understand and felt sympathy toward ma long instead criticized about him. After all he might be the best talent Tt player out here. |
Posted By: mwechsler
Date Posted: 05/24/2013 at 5:59pm
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I agree with this evaluation. I also think Ma Long is more fun to watch and has a more complete game than the others. ------------- Marius |
Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 05/24/2013 at 6:08pm
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welcome to the forum; I agree with all you wrote too. I still want to give credit to WH for being able to squeeze ML, make him groggy and not give him a chance to play his real game; it takes talent, experience and strong willpower to do that to (one of) the very best players out there and WH made it happen.
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Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 05/24/2013 at 7:04pm
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That is exactly why I think that having a coach by his side who could "wake him up" or give him a moral boost during the match would help Ma Long tremendously. I really do not see why CNt continues this old tradition of not coaching Chinese players when they play vs each other during international competitions. Nowadays it just seems silly and counterproductive. But I could be wrong... I've been before.
------------- Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |