Euro/Jap = Grippy (friction based)

Sponges aside, which top sheet is capable of generating more spin?

 

The number is probably less than 50% and believe it or not, there are Chinese players who do not use tacky topsheets as well.  Just about every non-Chinese player in the top 25 uses a non-tacky topsheet.

 

Ultimately, this is one of those silly questions to stimulate senseless debates over the meaning of life...

So why not list the 13-15?  Just playing semantic games?  If we assume the 11 Chinese and maybe Gao Ning because he is originally Chinese, we get 12.  Who are the others?  And the question is why aren't the non-Chinese doing it?

I've owned several tacky rubbers. I clean them after playing. I use rubber protectors and I still feel like in relatively short time, they morph into more grippy vs tacky. Any pick up the ball off the table trick you can do fresh out of the packet is a far cry from what you'll get that rubber to do a month down the road... At least it has been for me.

Now all I want out of my topsheet is for it to have high friction. Is it hard to slide the ball across it? Do I have to apply a lot of force to get it to do that?

As long as I have that, I'm happy with my topsheet... Beginning to see the value in putting your money into a quality sponge.

Tacky top sheets are great if you can brush a lot because the ball will not slip of the paddle but the same force that hold the ball must also be broken so that is a net zero when it comes to speed.

It is a pain to keep tacky top sheets clean.

It is the top sheet stretching and snapping back that causes extra spin in excess of what would be generated by friction alone. How many times do I have to say this?

So, which produces more spin?;-)

what i have found is at lower speeds (on service game, table game) the tackier rubbers produce more spin, however at high speed (counterlooping/driving) tenergy produce immense spin (provided you are swinging full or at a high rate of speed), yet personally i find that my service game with tenergy is not nearly as spinny or dynamic (but, that's me)

but, it's also technique, because i have played/practice with players who use hurricane and tenergy both, and their balls come over with barely any spin, kinda like hitting a change-up on every ball.  so it's not a 100% answer that a certain type of rubber will automatically produce more spin

:)

+1

Like I said, it is more a matter of how much the ball can stretch the top sheet across the face of the paddle and then how fast it snaps back to the original state.

Without the stretching and snapping back action all the top sheets would produce the same spin because the surface of the ball would be moving at the tangential speed of the paddle and that is it.

If the tackiness is high I wouldn't be surprised if the tacky force reduced speed and or spin.

And watch Wang Liqin bounce the ball on his "tacky" topsheet before serving. Super tacky? Uh, no. 

I used to play with DHS PF4. I can't imagine anything stickier than that. I could hold a ball upside down for about . . . well, the ball never came off! Many players used it for chopping. Is it fair to say that was spinnier than most friction-based rubbers?

Again, consider how easily the ball bounces when you watch Wang Liqin in his pre-serve ritual.

With tacky topsheet you need to play with all your arm to produce high spin.

With grippy topsheet, with only first part of your arm you produce spin.

the "top x player" argument doesn't really hold bc they could use mechanical and still hold their rank

No, I have explained it already.

the-theologian wrote: I thought we settled this a long time ago (hint: tangential elasticity).

Yes, plus the top sheet snapping back after being stretched.

tuco wrote: it's how much friction the top sheet can produce.

Modern inverted rubbers have more than enough friction to grip the ball so it doesn't slide.

Tacky rubbers will grip the ball better when barely brushing but in most cases it doesn't make a difference.

Imago wrote: I rest my case (as stated in post №2): Tackiness alone does not increase the spin.

agree

There should be something else to produce greater spin, e.g., grippiness. +1 for Tuco

Nooooooo.

Derf59 wrote: It's also a question of stroke. With tacky topsheet you need to play with all your arm to produce high spin. With grippy topsheet, with only first part of your arm you produce spin.

More myths.  The ball doesn't care what the stroke was, it only cares about the speed, direction and angle of impact.

[quote]

Krantz wrote: This 20 years old study indicates that sticky rubbers produce both less speed and less spin: http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199408014%20-%20%20Tiefenbacher%20-%20Impact.pdf Unfortunately we cannot be sure if they took into account the effect of different sponges during these experiments (ideally they should attach different topsheets to the same type of sponge to be more conclusive)

YES!!!!! and you are right about the sponges but if sponges are the same then breaking the tacky force will slow down the spin and speed some. The key point is that the tacky force must be broken.  If not brushing I am pretty sure the tacky rubber will not be as fast or spinny as mechanical but when brushing there will be a point where the tacky rubber will grip and and the mechanical rubber will not.  It depends.  Most of the time we don't brush.

Here is a question for the forum.  In mercuur's long thread about dwell time the force during impact was estimated.  How does that compare to the tacky force?  I know roughly.  This is something for you guys to ponder.

smackman wrote: depends if it is a con-cave or con-curve  loop

Noooooo.   Again the ball doesn't care about the stroke.  Simpler yet the ball only cares about the applied impulse.

kurokami wrote: derailing thread lol ma lin still holds the spin record per lgl (assuming chinese have the most spin) afaik at over 11k rpm.

That is 183.33 rev/sec or 1152 rad/sec or ball surface rotational speed of 23 m/s = 51.5 mph.  This is believable and I am surprised it is a record spin. 

 

Votes don't count bit you are probably right but not in a significant way.

No one has answered my question about the ratio of the tacky force to the force of impact.  Knowing this will lead to the answer.

 

In the light of its shitty durability (T05)... never performed at 80% level past the 4 week mark of daily play... Even $40 USD a sheet is a little steep. Maybe acceptable to slap on a new sheet a day or two before a big tourney, but that is a stretch as it is.

 

999 is a great allround topsheet once you get rid of the tack. (I use my shirt and it is only mildy tacky after a week of daily play) You can depend on its performance ot be there despite high humidity where rubbers like T05 and Omega II will give you fits of slippery.

+1. 

When Hookshot and I trained in China, our Euro/Jap rubbers were useless. We spent more time wiping the humidity off them they went spent hitting the ball. This isn't a factor in expensive, climate controlled environments, but most of the play in Asia is in cheap, sweaty places.

 

Of course, in USA, that isn't an overwhelming concern as most USA people will cry bloody murder if the A/C unit isn't in PERFECT working order and blasting cold air like artic vortex to make the venue under 70 degrees F (21 degrees C)... if it isn't at LEAST that temp or lower, USA people will stampede outta there like they are running away from zombies.