Pros seems to punch and counter loop heavy topspins all the time...

If I can generate a ball with heavy spin and good speed it most likely will require the opponent to close his racket face in order to keep his return on the table.  If he is closing his racket then he is not able to generate the same kind of forward speed as if he could hit the ball in a flatter manner (kill or loop-kill).   If you consider an "attack" as a ball hit with maximum speed, then a counter-loop would not be an attack in comparison to a kill or loop-kill which generally have more speed than a counter-loop.  

A good counter-loop can be a winning shot, but some would not consider it as a true "attack" like they would a 3rd ball loop-kill off of a weak return or a 4th ball kill off of a weak block of a good opening.

At my level I still have a lot of counter-loops go right by or through me.  I like to think of those as really good attacks by my opponent rather than errors on shots I should have returned.  At least that makes me feel better about my game.  I am sure higher level players would consider them to be errors on my part instead of winners by my opponent.

Mark

Not so much errors, but I think a good part of being rated over USATT 2000 consistently is having a decent antidote to the loop.  Below that, the first loop off a push or opening receive wins the point.  Above that, a good push or flick on service recieve tends to make it harder to get a killer loop, so the opening is of medium strength and permits a rally to begin.

Perhaps as mjamja posted - a counter loop might not or should not end the point. Again, I guess it's dependant on the level of the players involved.

No, he is quite sure about this - "if you spin up the ball - it cannot be attacked!"

Since he does have a lot more experience and knowledge than I have, figured it's best to try and understand what's involved here.

It was a situation where bunch of other high level players were all involved in the discussion. I didn't want to jump in there and break up their conversation.

I believe someone in the group questioned him on this point and he asked if I spin the ball up to you, what is your first reaction - block or counter it right? 

At this point - I was thinking - I would take a swing at it - but this might not be the right thing to do. 

takethat told me to hit the spin out it. 

Too bad Kim Ki Taek and Chen Longcan didn´t know this fact...

Smashing topspin requires tremendous skills. It's much more difficult than spinning the ball. That's why few players do it nowadays. Most people prefer the easier way.

He doesn't count counterloop as 'attack'? Maybe his english wasn't great.

jrscatman, I would disregard that comment. Sometimes people talk $hit, high level players or not.

  

I'll start paying more attention to this perhaps some of the easy shots I'm missing might be trying to hit loops - when I should be counter looping or blocking.

As far as byebye making a comment about "lame covering like pips because you have no athletic ability or because you like to cheat...cheat and that you should man up and play the game the way it was meant to be"...I hope he's just kidding, but probably not as many players seem to feel that way about anything other than smooth rubber. I also never knew there was a written way for how the game should be played. I thought the main thing was to keep the freaking ball on the table. I can see why some people think LPs is kind of cheating as you're really relying heavily on the disturbing properties of your rubber to win the point, but SPs are not really doing that. Playing with SPs takes a lot of athletic ability. Not everyone is great at looping and counter-looping. I've always been a good athlete but I didn't get coaching at an early age and never learned properly how to counter-loop. Anyway I've already said enough and it's such a ridiculous statement I probably shouldn't respond, but when I read comments like that I thought I would anyway. Maybe he's just like my son who sometimes says things that he know will get a rise out of me.

XX multiball training attack vs heavy topspin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frk3ymCackY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frk3ymCackY

 

Myself, I don't have any use (for main weapon as match play) for SP, MP, LP, or anti. I seriously doubt I will be a serious player using any of those "coverings".

 

I think it is fine as Cherry Pie and Cappuccino to think or say (publically or privately) one's opinion of these surfaces. Forums are great places for it and such chat makes the popcorn taste better. Adds diversity as well. Forums would really suck if we all thought  the same and were not jokers at heart.

 

OTH, these surfaces are still legal and I must face them, so I sometimes train using one to better learn how to play vs a player wielding one of these. Another good point is two of the coaches I have learned from the most in TT are LP choppers. Their work with me has produced results that I must respect. These surfaces and the people operating them add diversity. Besides, what the F would the TT world and forums do if CWX and hiz LULZ were not around?

Apparently if a serve is long or high enough to loop - he saying - soft spinny loop low on the table will not be attacked. It would be countered or blocked. Apparently Wang Zhen does this often. I'll try and find a video of this with Wang Zhen.

On a side note - I tried this strategy and it does work. I hit and loop without thinking, last night I made sure I was looping more than hitting and I was getting a lot free points, my opponents tried to hit and usually went long. 

 

My coach always mocks us when we loop our third ball off the table.  Most people just block so why are you hitting the ball so hard when the next ball will be easier? Now if he counters you hard, before you start looping harder, move the ball around.  If you can't find a safe spot, then you can try to loop a bit harder.

I guess what was confusing me is the concept of opening loop and how it's different from any other loops. In general I try to rip everything I can given the chance. The idea of the soft loop not being killed is a new concept for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfCiNf8mWk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfCiNf8mWk

Classic example is when a serve is delivered wide to the FH and the ball is lifted. This shot usually ends up as a third ball kill unless the receiver can keep the ball low and/or place it really well. 

Example: Low ball plus good placement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ten8FWGRKiY" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ten8FWGRKiY

I found another video addressing the same issue. 

Here are the comments from Alex Zhang the student in the video:

"

"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNIGepXdBYk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNIGepXdBYk

 

In fact quite the opposite. Much easier for me to do in training than match setting, but working on it.

 

I believe it has something to do with when you aren't contacting the ball directly on the spin axis, the spin doesnt bite the rubber and want to jump as much, so you can impart your will on the ball much easier.

 

It's really more about the racket angle and stroke trajectory and less about hitting off center - look at Alex's video again and see how he approaches the ball when he makes the shot (you can also look for Xkaboomx's work with Pierre-Luc Hinse) . 

 

If you look at an advanced player looping the ball, you don't see them come into the ball with a paddle to hit the top of the ball - they usually come in to hit the top side, even when they are going for just topspin in a relatively straight line - look at the warmups before a match begins.  They learn to hit the ball straight that way.  One other reason my coach gave me was that the ball is so light that if you come into hit with a full paddle, the air from your paddle moves the ball more significantly.  But in any case, that is what they do, mostly to avoid the incoming topspin from reacting and to be able to control the ball better.

 

Of course, it takes experience to develop the timing, ball feel and the control to hit a stroke without going in with the full paddle area so you can't make a beginner do that from day one.  But this is another example of the kind of thing that can leave someone without access to a coach or a higher level player frustrated for a long time.  You will also find that the more spin/speed sensitive the setup you are using, the more necessary it is to use this technique to counterloop.

Very easy to reach the wrong conclusions in this game!

As said above it will prevent the ball from biting into the rubber so much. Just watch out for "corkscrew" spin, similar to a football (American) being thrown. This spin is almost undetectable when the ball is traveling, unlike back, top, and sidespin, but has drastic affects if not accounted for when trying to hit a return with sidespin.

 

Yup. I beleive this idea is paramount to the success of a banana flip or backhand opening loop vs backspin over the table

 

Edit: More so the contact point/angle than the imparting of the sidespin

Correct. 

I am assuming a forward aggressive type stroke catching the ball on the side, not someone swiping at the ball parallel to the edge of the table.

There are very good players though.

The key is to close the paddle a little bit more so the ball doesn't go high like in the video above with the coach and student.  It isn't rocket science.  If the ball goes high the close the paddle a little more the next time you see the same shot coming at you.

 

Purely closing the paddle is riskier than what the student is attempting (to come round the side of the ball).  His misses may be fixed by closing the paddle but that is not the spirit of the shot he is trying to make. What is really happening is that his contact is too hard/uncontrolled (he once posted on this site that he uses an OFF+ blade).

"corkscrew" would explain a strange serve I once encountered. Ball appeared to defy the laws of physics. I'll keep this in mind.

Not many people think much about corkscrew spin.

One of my Chinese friends a long time ago told me about a secret shot Ma Lin had in his arsenal called a "backspin loop", a topspinning shot with enough corkscrew that when an opponent tried to angle their next shot it would hit the paddle with backspin and die into the net.

I have a corkscrew serve with three variations that all look quite similar. I can almost always win points in desperate moments with these serves.

1.How old are you?

2. You watch too much tv

3. Your post was hilarious

4. Im with stupid

5.Jesus christ, Did I really READ THIS??

6. I quit

I tend to agree, I am thinking attacking a heavy spin ball with drives or hits is a riskier shot. Although, it is possible to put these away, it's extremely risky - so might not be the best option. 

1. 24

2. I don't even have a TV in my apartment.

3. Thanks. This was simply a story told to me by a friend, I don't know how Ma Lin did it or even if it is real.

4. Clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say corkscrew spin. You are just being rude. A simple forum search will give you sufficient information on corkscrew spin. I suggest you educate yourself and stop being ignorant.

5. Yes

6. Thank you, you added nothing to the thread except to insult me.

"I can almost always win points in desperate moments with these serves." Do you not understand this either? Desperate points are when you're opponent has match point and you are down 8-10 with the serve. I can do two of my corkscrew serves back to back with confidence to help push deuce.

Jrscatman:

Any luck using a little sidespin to attack the slow spinny loops?

I didn't get a chance to try it. I was focusing on hitting slow spinny loops - however due to league play - couldn't experiment much. 

Also, I'll need to find a practice partner who can slow spin the ball to me. Most of my regular playing partners are power players who tend to drive the ball or hit hard.

I'll have write down what to test before getting to the club - once I get on the table, kinda forget about things.

Will make it a point to try to tomorrow!

Slow loops were very effective. My opponent ended up blocking back most of them - as his hits were off the table 90% of the time. He was more successful with counter looping but still not very consistent. We are both about the same level players. 

I tried looping side spin on top spin - I had trouble contacting the side of the ball and didn't really pursue it much. Felt bad forcing my opponent to go get the ball everytime. Maybe with a bucket of balls - I might try it again. 

I will have to practice this more and try to use it more in matches. Again, higher level players might be able hit my spin - not sure but as APW46 suggested - I will try to keep it deep. 

no, it's actually that the speed, angle of incidence, and force of impact combined with those properties of their return is high enough that the return angle is nearly horizontal. i.e. if there was no net, it would reach its apex at a higher pt and go longer. a spinny loop that has speed but no power will kick higher, etc.

so in general, adjust your racket angle against the incoming speed and spin, what angle the loop is directed, and softness of your attack against power (you can go hard against hard but it's a lot more difficult than just rebounding theirs in a balanced return). as long as it's within your range of attack, you should be able to attack topspin balls.

Instead, do your regular stroke as if a normal loop, but break your wrist slightly towards your arm. The more you break your wrist the more sidespin you will get. Don't really have to think much about the contact point just break your wrist.

Don't physically snap the bone break, I just mean bend your wrist 

Ok, I'll try it once I get the cast off!

No just kidding. I just found it was easier to loop hitting the back and top of the ball. But I know what you mean. However, I'm in phase where I'm trying to reduce the amount wrist I use - so I'm trying to get away from using too much wrist at the moment. 

Thanks for suggestions.

Some wrist you use accentuates the looping motion, adding more spin. This is when you move your wrist parallel to the blade. I find this hurts my wrist when I do it too much so I try not to do it a lot.

I'm talking about bending your wist perpendicular to blade. You are not "using more wrist" you simply adjust the angle that your racket hits the ball. He explains it pretty well here.

 

That's why strengthening the wrists is part of the exercise routine of many players.  Otherwise, keep your wrists loose and they will naturally move.  Forcing them to move is necessary only over the table for the most part.  Locking them is what makes people tense, though it can make the stroke easier to time for some.

 

And as you rightly pointed out, you need to be able to change racket angles with your wrist, even if you do not want to actively use it to generate speed/spin on the stroke.