Which ball should our club buy to test?
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Topic: Which ball should our club buy to test?
Posted By: suds79
Subject: Which ball should our club buy to test?
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 10:35am
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Curious to get the vote reaction from those of you who have tried the new ball. I think it's time our club purchases some of the new balls to test out at club. We're located in the US and of local suppliers, current poly balls being offered are. - JOOLA Super-P 3-Star Poly Ball (megaspin.net) - Donic 40+ 3-Star Poly Ball (megaspin.net) - Nittaku 3-Star SHA 40+ (paddlepalace.com) All these balls are roughly the same price. Which one should we get to test? Since I'm guessing most of us haven't played with all 3 balls, you could look at this question as... "Which one have you played with that you felt played okay (maybe even good) with?" |
Replies:
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 11:53am
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From what I can tell, those are all seamed balls and pretty much the same, so go with the cheapest. I have tried Joola, DHS, Double Fish. |
Posted By: Roger Stillabower
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 11:57am
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Probably all made in China by the same company.. ------------- Shifter |
Posted By: hookumsnivy
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 12:04pm
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I played briefly with the Nittaku and didn't think it was too bad. The speed and spin are definitely down but I was expecting much worse. This forum tends to prepare you for the worst. Blockers will have a field day and loopers will need to adjust to the missing spin on balls blocked back or they will put it into the net. In my brief time with the ball, I found it ridiculously easy to block.
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Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 12:17pm
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I wouldn't buy the balls until after the first of the year. I doubt we'll see any tournaments use them until 2015. |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 12:24pm
I think it would be better to get a jump start on what ball is good for the club. Our club has our annual Open in January and in the summer we have our state games. In both these events I think it would be nice to play with the poly ball. That means deciding which one we like now. Unless at a later time, there's a significant price break in the balls, something I don't see happening any time soon, I don't see much reason to wait. This is just my personal opinion but it's hard for me to want to train hard with current celluloid balls when we know the game is changing for good right around the corner. I'd rather spend that time getting acclimated to the new ball.
This is interesting/good feedback. Makes the decision easier if they don't really differ all that much between them.
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mts388 wrote:Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 12:26pm
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Reading the USATT minutes last night it was clear that the organization is in dire condition, losing memberships, finances low, leadership vacant and nobody on the horizon. They voted to keep the 40C for this year nationals and combine that with few tournaments scheduled this year using any of the new 40+ balls makes one realize that the U.S. organization and clubs has a go slow feeling about adopting any of the wide array of plastic balls approved by the ITTF. There clearly is a wide breach within ITTF regarding these new balls not only between manufactures but seamless and seamed, durability issues and how each will impact the game and player acceptance of these balls. The international organization is betting that the top players will pull everyone else into the new ball sphere and make its introduction and acceptance easier. The U.S. needs to focus on keeping its clubs healthy and growing they are the only venue to widening the sports popularity and developing stronger training and future players. Hopefully clubs will put the new ball on the back burner and let ITTF and USATT sort out the mess they have created otherwise they will get caught up in which version of the new ball or old creating winners and losers within the club and generating a negative environment for growth. The final plastic ball winner may take years to resolve or could move quickly into resolution but individual clubs have no control over these decisions and need to tread carefully.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 12:58pm
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 1:01pm
I think that since we will most certainly at some point be using the plastic balls (ITTF pressure means manufacturers will stop making the celluloid ones, probably), then it is dumb to delay the transition. The worst possible outcome is to have to play with both kinds of balls. I think if US players have to continue to be prepared to use celluloid, when they play abroad they will be in big trouble. That doesn't matter much to guys like me, but it is still not a good plan. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 1:14pm
Rather then rush out and try to replace a proven winner with a unpopular item best to take time to test and get a wide variety of player feedback about any new ball otherwise one risks pissing off a wide group of current players who no longer wish to participate in the sport and the new ball is not attractive to new players.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 1:23pm
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You would just be delaying the inevitable. Still, I completely understand the dilemma. I am going to play tonight. Not sure which ball we should use. I think we should just get it over with. The proven winner (celluloid) will eventually go the way of the dodo bird and the passenger pigeon. Don't believe it? Go try to order some 38 mm balls. Edit added. I can't imagine being sufficient upset about any of the 40+ balls I have tried that I would quit the sport, certainly these plastic balls are not that bad. People who are that sensitive are probably going to quit anyway. And some people will like them better. The worst possible scenario is to have to try to play with both kinds of balls. |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 1:30pm
Yes I have little or no motivation to train with the celluloid ball. I don't train with the 38mm ball. I also don't believe for one second that players are going to quit over this. Yes, I think there will be some who grumble. And probably grumble for some time. However, with each passing day it will be considered the new norm. No longer players will think "this ball doesn't do this as good as the celluloid ball." anymore. They'll begin to see it as the new normal. Baal, what poly ball do you typically hit with of recent?
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 1:37pm
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I have used the Joola 40+ the most, also tried DHS and Double Fish, they were all seamed and I could not tell any difference. All of this is over the last three days or so. All are made in China, which leads me to believe they are made in the same factory. (I don't know this for a fact). Tried a seamless one earlier, it was quite different, I did not like it as much. These new balls will require some adjustments but they are not the end of the world at all. A couple of days ago I did a test where I pulled out a joola 40+ ball, but did not tell my partner, who had not played with one before. He noticed the difference within about one minute or less, stared at the ball and asked what it was. We used it the rest of the night. He is a SP penholder, it suited him nicely. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 2:00pm
There are reasons why celluloid balls are still good for training: 1) It has more spin (great for counter hits training, e.g. looping very heavy underspin balls) 2) Faster (great for reaction / quickness training) The plastic balls are good for serve training and that's about it. You got to remember, these plastic balls are still subject to change, so until that final changes have taken place the current plastic balls cannot be relied on. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 4:10pm
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The one most compelling argument for practicing with plastic balls is that this is likely to be what we will all be playing with before too long, once current stock of celluloid balls is gone. Once plastic becomes the standard, it makes absolutely no sense to practice with anything else----unless you see some advantage to mistiming, misjudging trajectory, and using tactics that are not optimal. But I have to say that I am very undecided in my mind as to when to start playing with them more or less all the time. I think I will do it once everybody else I usually play with does it. I for one doubt we will see a lot of change in these balls going forward. The way these things play now is a feature, not a bug, and we can't expect to ever see plastic balls that play like the 40 mm celluloid ones. If that was ever the plan, the new ones would not be larger. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 4:32pm
| @Baal I have not seen any info from ITTF that they will ban the 40C or is this your idea? |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 4:49pm
The ITTF has already banned the 40C from its tour/events. The real question is when the national associations will follow suit. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 4:53pm
ITTF has not officially "banned" the 40C, but no ITTF-sanctioned tournaments listed on its website to be held past 09/01/2014 will be using the 40C. Action speaks louder than words. 40C is history and effectively "banned" at all ITTF events starting this September. ------------- Current USATT Rating: 2181 Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 4:58pm
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I will not use the plastic ball until after my last tournament (Nationals I assume) that uses the celluloid ball. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 5:01pm
| I don't see the point of disbanding celluloid balls in training. As I noted earlier, celluloid balls are faster and more spinny, therefore making training all that relatively harder. The only benefit I see in training with the plastic balls is serve because you want to learn to make your serve more effective. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 5:06pm
It will hurt the looper but aid the blocker somewhat. The bounce is sufficiently different and if you are a spin oriented player, it hurts your game because shots that win in practice will not win in real matches. As someone who worked hard to become a spin oriented player, the ball is going to hurt my forehand considerably and my backhand a little less so but still noticeably. Over time, playing with the new ball, I would master the art of playing with less arc. It's just to easy to block supposedly heavy topspin on the new ball because the sideways movement is too easy to track. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 5:07pm
From my limited experience with the 40P, it is easy to get an inverted rubber serve to imitate a long pips serve like your using the 40C. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 5:08pm
Exactly. If the NA Teams and the Nationals remain 40C, then 40C it is until the new year. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 6:49pm
In order words Baal's opinion not ITTF or any association rule. First off only a very tiny slice of the TT players play in international TT events which holds true for every domestic association official sanctioned tournaments. Most of the club players I know in my area play in local RR and shun sanctioned tournaments for expense and time considerations not to mention wear and tear on the body. The only group that attends sanctioned tournaments on a regular basis is the junior segment and that group tends to by U15 as they get older the drop out rate is high. The number of small local clubs in towns and cities around the country will be in no hurry to replace balls and convert to plastic just because RoundRobin and Baal think thats a good idea! Manufactures that have built good business off the 40C rubbers and blades are in no hurry to see that disappear and have to be wondering what the business landscape will look like if the 40C is banned from manufacture by ITTF. Most likely the 40C will never be banned from production and be available for many years. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 7:00pm
lineup32, Your posts like these leave me fairly puzzled when I read them. The right way to think about this is to think about Kanak Jha practicing for the World Cup which uses the new ball. How soon will he want to be using the same ball everywhere? And if he does, or whoever wants to play ITTF events amongst the younger player does (Timothy Wang etc.), do they want to come back to Opens using a different ball? And if they don't, at what level do their age mates in similar tournaments want to start using the new ball? Only older players with no tournament ambitions will be able to stay away from the new ball. The process by which what the professionals use becomes widespread in tournament use is what I have elaborated. How it eludes you befuddles me, to be frank. By the end of this year, it is unlikely that the 40 C ball will survive tournament play - consider where the 38C ball is when thinking about what you are claiming. People like Baal and myself will use whatever ball most of our better opponents are using, and most of them will be using the 40P ball to stay in tournament shape because their better opponents will be using that ball. It's not about being "banned from manufacture" - it's about being no longer a practical option for players who want to get better at tournament level play. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 7:45pm
For robot owners the time to start practicing with plastic balls will be when affordable bulk packs are available. And after testing a few to see if the robot still functions with the larger ball.
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Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 8:21pm
Next, hope you had a nice vacation! You and other early adopters need to realize that its way to early to start picking winners and losers, much work needs to be done to evaluate these new balls in a variety of competitive settings and get better feed back from players tournament directors and fans. The USATT is in rough shape needs a director, money and a agenda, you and other early adopters need to wait until the national association has the manpower and financial ability to make and implement many of the new ball issues. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 10:09pm
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The best seller is a gentle and honest seller. Factory price of DF three star super quality ball is now set down to 5.5 yuan at maximum, according to a china newsmaker. Eacheng seller fixed price at 12 yuan per ball, what a mersiless attitude upon their customers.  i only accept 9 yuan. =1.5 usd. I do hate those filthy, greedy profiteers, It is much better for me to stand aloof, waiting for the price dropping down properly. I am a kin blocker, plastic suits my play only too well. Plastic is my preffered choice. President Sharara is great !!!!! Yes. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 10:32pm
Plastic balls will make looping a bit easier because of the lesser spin (edit: in oncoming shots). Thus training with the celluloid balls will make you a better looper (edit: because you are facing faster and more spinny balls).
I don't know how you practice, but when I practice, the objectives are to hit as many shots as possible, be consistent, refine strokes and shot re-alignment. The last thing that's on my mind is hitting winners in practice. The idea of using celluloid balls is to make the oncoming shots relatively harder for me. So I get a good workout in training.
Two ways that I know of and can do: 1) a drive, one of the fundamental shots in table tennis 2) heavy top spin over the top of the ball - racket quite parallel to the table so minimal arc is produced. You can do this with the celluloid balls. Using the celluloid balls to practice this is probably ideal because the ball is more sensitive to spin, so it makes it that little bit more difficult to get the shot angle right.
I think it is relatively easy to spot sideway movements. I think the most challenging time in spotting the type of spin is when your opponent is serving (i.e. top-spin, no-spin, underspin) because of the deception and subtle movements. Note, I have both plastic and celluloid balls. I use the plastic balls for serve practice but have used it for general practice. However, I think the celluloid balls are better for general practice - makes you work harder with each shot, you have to be quicker as the oncoming shots are faster and have more spin. However, for match preparation, you would want to get prepared with the appropriate ball. But I see no reasons to dump the celluloid balls as it still have its benefits - including lower price and longer durability. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 10:34pm
The thing that I dislike most about the plastic balls is its poor durability. If they can fix that, I will be happy. |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 10:54pm
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Don't know why but I see no significant reduction of spin many talk about with the new DHS/DF balls. Actually I have a hard time returning short and strong backspin serves and always end up to the net. Also blocking of top spin keep overshooting off the table. Going back to celluloid and things are back to normal. No such problem with Palio/XSF seamless either. I believe the reduction of spin is obvious with seamless but not quite with seamed new balls. Might need a new set of technique to suit them. Will see in more practice. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 11:15pm
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Ok, lineup32. We will revisit in a few months since you want to act like all the precedents don't matter. The only thing that can change is an ITTF mandate. The ITTF has forced similar changes in the past., so if you decide to ignore those when predicting how things will turn out, that is your own prerogative. The vacation was great - thanks! ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 12:09am
Most of your points agree with me, but are written in ways that make it sound like you are disagreeing with me. If the offensive player can generate more difficult shots to defend with one kind of ball, the practice is better for the player who is defending against those shots. Hence the cellular ball favors the looper and the plastic ball favors the defender in match play, but in practice, the cellular ball gives the defender/blocker better/more difficult practice and the plastic ball gives the looper/server more challenge. There's no need to write epistles that sound like you don't agree when you largely do. When you don't, it is because your logic is flawed and you aren't being consistent (the plastic ball is harder to generate heavy topspin with so I don't know how you can conclude that it is easier to loop - you probably mean it is easier to do a basic topspin return, but that is not quite the same thing as being able to generate heavy topspin). ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 12:15am
Sometimes, it is not so much spin reduction (though the fact that the ball is bigger does mean it is less spinny) as that the flight path of the celluloid ball reacted more to corkscrew spin elements. Therefore, people often had to move their paddles more to get into the right blocking position and this allowed close to the table looping to be effective, especially sidespin looping/flicking. Now, you need far more distance to get the plastic ball to break when sidespin looping (and the break is nothing compared to what was possible with the cellular ball). So banana flicks and sidespin loops are less effective and easier to track and block. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 12:44am
Ooh, I can see why it might have contracted itself, I left a word out. I was meant to say looping is easier because of the less spin in oncoming shots. For example, looping a flat heavy underspin. Remember, it takes 2 to tango. What makes a shot harder to achieve is the type of ball you are facing. The plastic balls are easier to face due to lesser spin and speed... This why I still prefer celluloid balls for training. I can still generate heavy top spins with the plastic balls but it is relatively weaker compared with the celluloid balls, though I am yet to use the new 40+ rubbers. But as I was saying too: 1) celluloid balls still have benefits over plastic balls. Faster and more spinny oncoming balls. 2) if your tournament uses plastic balls only then you might want to focus on plastic balls, though keep point 1 in mind. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 12:48am
If you must get plastic balls now, then get half a dozen of each brand. Test them out at the club, see which is most preferred. I use the DHS 3 star, quite a good feeling except very poor durability. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 2:21pm
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HOW SOON ??? DHS is great !! Can't tell any difference from orthodox celluloid. as seen on the video.. Perhaps a bit slower rebounce on the table ??? Again, blocking play is some luxury with plastic. I like plastic. Mr.SHARARA is the man to celebrate in fact he did a hip of good for all nonloopers like myself, yes. DHS is my best target ball, but no sooner than price discount is offered by a seller. HOW SOON, that's the question. Yes. |
Posted By: rliu
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 4:57pm
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EVERYONE wait for the Nittaku Made in Japan Ball. It is VERY similar to the current ball because I have tried it. The ball is pretty good and won't make huge differences. It hasen't come out yet but it should be worth it. ------------- Blade: Hurricane King 655 Rubber: Fastarc-G1 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 9:45am
Based on the physics of the situation, a ball that is slightly larger than the current celluloid will have to play somewhat differently (as we see with Chinese poly-balls). It will have to be slower and less spinny. Hopefully the Nittaku ones will have better durability, but make no mistake, they will not be cheap, and there will still be some adjustment. Some people will like the new balls better, some people will really hate them. It is still the same sport, but the ball moves and bounces differently. |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:00am
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Initial test of Nittaku Premium 40+ balls said that it actually bounce higher than celluloid and seems unbreakable. 2 opposite characteristics of current DHS's weakness. Major gripe for me is the lower than normal bounce and reluctant to go forward. More so with 1 star DHS. If Nittaku's final product is that good then I am willing to pay more. Too bad DHS is already close to $2 each, I am afraid Nittaku premium could hit $3 or more a piece. Can't imagine my reaction if someone step on it! ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:10am
Higher bounce is fine. It will still spin lesst and travel differently through the air, as with current DHS ball, and ITTF specs for the new ball mean it will also be heavier than current celluloid. Of course, greater durability would be a good thing. For sure it will cost more. Nittaku has always cost more. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:26am
Unfortunately, these specs are only temporary till 01.01.2016, apparently to make players to swallow the bait and switch to plastic. After 01.01.2016 the old bad specifications will return automatically and we'll have to enjoy using the real crap: "Temporary amendmend for non-celluloid balls ...a temporary release of three specifications for non-celluloid balls is decided: Weight, bounce and hardness. ... It is valid until January 1, 2016. At this date, after all development is completed, the original specifications will apply." http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf, page 4 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:53am
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I checked six of the new Joola 40+ balls in my laboratory using calipers and an analytical balance late last week. 5/6 meet the 2016 specs (barely, they were all barely at the high end of that range), and one was heavier even then current amended specs allow. So, maybe not so much change coming after 2016. Interestingly, all of the DHS celluloid balls I weighed were under current spec weight for celluloid. The balance I used is calibrated yearly and we use it for weighing milligram quantities of substances. The other stuff (roundness, hardness, etc.) I can't measure. But as much as I really do not like the rule change, I think that our current experience with these balls will not change that much after Jan 2016. At least I hope not. Again, I know there is no impending worldwide ban on celluloid, and I suspect the motives behind the change, but now in practical terms I am trying to figure out some practical things going forward, like when to start playing exclusively with the new ones, since I am guessing in the not too distant future newly made celluloid balls will cease to exist. |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:05pm
The spin and speed of DHS balls does not bother me much but the low bounce is. It gave me the same feeling as playing with a toy ball that drops fast and not going forward. The bounce is mostly fine with DHS once you go full speed rally with hard hitting, but real pain in soft touch push and block and there lies the biggest difference between seamed new and old. Spin is less alright but the test also said that if there is spin then it won't dissipate and goes with true flight path probably due to the extra weight. That could be something loopers love. Is that what DHS is suppose to make in the first place? How can a ball bounce lower than celluloid be accepted? ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:06pm
Well, it will for the simple reason that different specifications mean different balls. Since the specifications after 01.01.2016 will be automatically different, the new new balls will be different as well. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:08pm
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Well, whatever the new balls are like, we are going to play with them, no matter how good or bad or ugly they are. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:35pm
I do not think so. The example of Germany shows that almost 100% will play with celluloid balls. It is possible that the plastic ball swindle will be gone next year. |
Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:57pm
========================= I think NextLevel is right. When all ITTF sanctioned tournaments switch to plastic balls - beginning in 2015, the rest of the world will gradually follow. It takes some time. It will be the same as 40mm balls replaced 38mm balls. ------------- skip3119 |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 1:28pm
The date is not 2015, it is 2014. Secondly, the example of Germany shows the opposite, as I said. Thirdly, there is no legal reason for the ITTF sanctioned tournaments to switch to plastic balls, because the ITTF rule states: "3.02.01.02 ...the choice of equipment shall be as laid down by the Association in whose territory the competition is held, selected from brands and types currently approved by the ITTF." The Association in whose territory the competition is held can, of course, be blackmailed or bribed or whatever to choose a plastic ball despite celluloid ball being legal, but nevertheless plastic balls remain very unpopular, which gives hope that the plastic ball swindle will be gone next year. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 2:15pm
Let's hope you are right, though I think you will be quite wrong. The German example only shows that use of the plastic ball can be reasonably delayed, but once the Pros use the balls, there will be nothing left to discuss unless the balls behave so terribly that they cannot be used. No one has decried the latest set of balls that much - I hate them for my style but I will not quit TT because of them. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 2:44pm
There have been enough reports describing plastic ball as bad, so they are terrible enough, if you wish to use the term terrible. Note that plastic ball are known for a very long time and failed twice, in 1970s and in 1980s. The Pros can be forced to use them one way or another, right, but the overall failure will lead to the end of the plastic ball swindle. The clever trick to allow "better" plastic balls temporarily will not help, people are not that stupid. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 3:01pm
By and large, the reviews on the latest balls have been positive - I am not sure where you get your reviews from. Baal has pointed out that all the DHS balls were weighted below tolerance, which means there there is margin to use more plastic. Nittaku is perfecting its formula. The Chinese team has used the balls in practice and is adapting its players to it. If the World Cup is successful, I am not sure why people wouldn't change. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 3:29pm
There has been a lot of guerrilla marketing on the forums lately.
You can use a potato and adapt to it. The point is that where the people can choose the ball free, they choose celluloid. As I said, e.g. Germany. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 3:38pm
Because, as I hope, people are not that stupid and will not fall into the the trap of temporarily till 01.01.2016 changed specifications. By the way, the fact alone that someone illegally changed plastic ball specifications in the Technical Leaflet T3 is a significant evidence for "normal" plastic balls being crap. Additional evidence is the fact that someone in the ITTF is trying to force plastic balls on players by allegedly choosing plastic balls for the international competitions. Note that that is a violation of the ITTF rule 3.02.01.02: "...the choice of equipment shall be as laid down by the Association in whose territory the competition is held, selected from brands and types currently approved by the ITTF." |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 5:35pm
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Today I played with made in Japan Nittaku 40+ ball (Jim Butler had one). It is much much much better than the Joola or the XSF ball. Bounce is identical to a Nittaku regular ball. Still slightly slower and less spinny than current celluloid balls, but a big improvement over the 40+ balls I had tried before this during the last week. That is the brand that I hope becomes the standard. As things stand now, their product is clearly superior. By the way, IMHO, the XSF ball is a joke. Nobody will want to use that one. As for guerrilla marketing (if I can guess what this is supposed to mean) I think I have been as outspoken in opposition to these new balls as anyone on this forum, and nobody pays me for what I write. Of course nobody gives a crap what I have to say either. The world continues to change in many ways no matter what I think. Realistically, we need to move on now. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 8:08pm
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Baal, can you weigh it or get someone to so we can check the tolerances? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 8:20pm
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@Baal, How long did you play for? I am assuming the Nittaku Made In Japan ball did not break during play, did Jim tell you how durable they are? I am just looking for some light in the tunnel, the DHS 3 star poly balls just don't last. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 8:24pm
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We hit for about 30 min while he waited for his partner to show up. Jim only has the one ball and it is the first time he had used it. It didn't break then. So unfortunately I can't tell you anything about durability. So no light yet. In our club we have a red Gerflor and padding on the walls, so balls tend to last a bit longer so even with more time with it, it might not be easy to tell. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 10:33pm
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@Baal, Ok thanks. The poly ball I had broke in just about 30 minutes of use. I think the trigger was largely because of me smacking it flat onto the net post once when I tried a swerving curve shot, as a few shots after there was a massive explosion sound when my hitting partner did a drive. To ensure this wasn't an isolated incident, I followed up with various friends whom I gave a poly ball each to, and they too said theirs had broke and did not last long. Otherwise, awesome ball to play with. |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:58pm
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In increase in cost and reduction in durability will have a significant impact on smaller clubs. I do hope durability will improve and prices will come down over time. ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 12:04am
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Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 2:35am
I expect the price will drop. The common price cycle of new technology products is: 1) Relatively high price at introduction 2) Price drops sharply as it is near maturity 3) Price stabilises at maturity 4) Price either bottoms out or spikes towards end of production life Think smart phones, computer laptops, MP3 players, USB sticks. |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 5:11am
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I see the price is already much lower than that of the first released Palio pre-approved balls. They still cost 8+ RMB each now but the ittf approved Palio ball is like 5 RMB. May be they can still drop a little but may not be much. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 8:27am
| I would suggest not buying until the price drops and quality/durability increases. Lower demand > price decrease > quality increase ?... maybe. |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 11:40am
note this disclaimer from this Dist. DHS 3 star 40+ table tennis ball made of new plastic material Approved by ITTTF. Available in the middle of July 2014. Official ball of World Games 2014-2016 6 pcs pack THESE BALLS ARE PRODUCED FROM NEW PLASTIC MATERIAL WHICH IS NOT AS DURABLE AS CELLULOID. WE TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY REGARDING THE DURABILITY OF THE BALL. http://www.dhs-tt.com/en/tt-ball-dhs-1-40-new-tt17406683 Pricing for clubs that provide 3-star balls for local RR play currently here is in the .50-.55 range, doubt they can afford to provide plastic balls 3-star anytime in the future unless the price drops significantly and durability increases. Also durability issues may plague the seamed ball while the seamless reviews to date have not showed a significant durability issue this may led to seamless as the industry standard. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 12:43pm
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Wow, they even admit that the balls are not durable. Nice find. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 2:11pm
------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 3:35pm
down to the Nittaku as the best hope for the seamed plastic  , I read somewhere that they will be out in Oct 2014 in what volume and price is an open question. It seems everyone views the seamless as the ugly duckling it could be the easier ball to manufacture in volume, has good durability and with volume manufacturing a shot at the cheaper choice long term, the ITTF could say seamless in Jan 2016, thats all folks
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Posted By: ChichoFicho
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 3:49pm
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It doesnt matter as long as it has oval shape and bounces. ------------- Darker Speed 70 Hammond FA Speed Tyotokusen |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 4:00pm
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I have placed a small order of the Joola Balls & Donic balls from megaspin. I will post my impressions of the new balls, how they compare to celluloid & with each other. Both poly balls are with seams. I will also try to get some footage from club of various players hitting with it.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 9:23am
Doubt they would want to piss off Nittaku and DHS that much, and those two companies have deeper pockets and can pay much larger bribes. |