When will you use the new balls exclusively?
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Topic: When will you use the new balls exclusively?
Posted By: Baal
Subject: When will you use the new balls exclusively?
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 11:45pm
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This is something I can't decide for myself. One part of me wants to use them now, since that is the future and might as well get started on the transition. But How do you plan to handle this? |
Replies:
Posted By: iakovka
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 11:51pm
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I was thinking about it myself... ------------- XIOM ZX1 Feel 85 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega VII Pro, BH: Rakza 7 Soft 2MM XIOM ZXI 88 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega V Tour, BH: Rakza Soft 7 2MM |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/25/2014 at 11:54pm
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My answer is: whenever tournaments I play at start using them i.e. when my USATT rating is dependent on how well I play with them. You don't play USATT tournaments which is why your choice is more personal. I expect that to be January 2015 as the Nationals is still committed to the old ball and that will likely influence the NA Teams, though the NA Teams and Nationals might have a change of heart depending on how the new ball plays at the World Cup and whether elite players coming to the Teams are using the new ball. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 12:11am
Sounds about right to me. I think that is probably what most people will do, and I will follow the herd which in the US probably means holding off until around November or so. |
NextLevel wrote:Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 12:59am
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I will use the new plastic balls exclusively once they no longer sell celluloid balls and the durability of plastic balls has improved. Currently, I use both types, with the plastic balls used only for serve practice. I don't see the need to disband celluloid balls entirely. Depending on your objective, you can change balls to fit that purpose. |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 5:52am
| Once I can get the new balls locally, I will start using them exclusively. |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 6:37am
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Only when the world runs out of celluloid balls. ------------- Life is too short for defensive play. https://twitter.com/spinnier_com" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/spinnier_com https://fb.me/spinnier" rel="nofollow - fb.me/spinnier |
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 7:48am
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If their playing characteristics stay like this, I will not use them, even when our league changes over to them. Also, their durability has to go up and the price down. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 10:54am
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When ZeroPong starts selling three star 40P at the same price as their three star 40C ! ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 1:02pm
We can conclude from the past that plastic ball is not the future. The fact is however that some people inside the ITTF have been working to make it the future contrary to the reason and players interests. In the past plastic balls failed on the market in 1970s and later also at tournament tests in 1980s. After the well known BoD decision (2011) based on the "coming worldwide celluloid ban" lie the plastic balls were found bad by some top players who tested them and their introduction was delayed twice, till 2013 and then again till 2014. Recently it has been practically delayed again, this time in a very clever manner. In the technical leaflet T3 someone added a temporary amendment allowing to make the plastic balls heavier that the rules allow. Note that after 01.01 2016 those heavier balls are not allowed any longer automatically. Apart from this decision being illegal, it demonstrates again that new plastic balls as designed by some ITTF people and manufacturers are crap, so they temporarily allow the plastic balls to be a little bit better and then, when people possibly switch to plastic, they'll introduce the real crap again. http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf, page 4 |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 3:22pm
Don't worry. Come 01.01.2016, the ITTF BoD will once again twist their interpretation of the rules to say that this heavier ball is now legal and permanent. Back on topic, I think everyone will switch from June/July 2015 as the ball supply should be ok by then and the TT associations will then ban the celluloid ball from all their competitions. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 4:33pm
I do not think so. If they had wanted it permanent, they would have made it permanent already. As new "tolerances". They did not. It must be clear that the purpose of the whole scam is not to provide us with gut balls. As I said, it has already been obvious for a long time that plastic balls are crap. Now after they increased the ball size without changing the weight, additionally the durability has become really bad. This is what they apparently wanted, so if they say heavier ball is gone after 01.01.2016, we have all reasons to believe they mean it. |
Posted By: AMonteiro
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 4:41pm
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In Brazil it will be used on official events only next year. So I plan to use after the end of this state champs season. ------------- Dynaryz AGR /Yasaka Goiabao 5 / Dynaryz AGR |
Posted By: iakovka
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 10:53pm
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I am totally confused. I thought it will become official ball since 1st of 2014...no? I mean, these balls are slower and have completely different playing dynamics. It is sort of impossible to switch back and forth. ------------- XIOM ZX1 Feel 85 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega VII Pro, BH: Rakza 7 Soft 2MM XIOM ZXI 88 Gr, FH: XIOM Omega V Tour, BH: Rakza Soft 7 2MM |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/26/2014 at 11:12pm
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The 40+ balls are definitely approved now. If you wanted to use them in a tournament now, it would be ok. But it seems some of the organizations that sanction official competitions at various levels are holding off using them for the next several months at least (as people have commented above), since the current celluloid balls are also legal. Canada may be switching earlier, or so it seems. I agree, the prospect of having to deal with all of these kinds of balls sucks. That is part of what made me want to start the thread. I have no idea how much longer the celluloid ones are going to be around, either. Are they going to continue to make them? |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 4:06am
| I currently use two types of balls. I don't mind it as I know it is a transitional period. But what bothers me is the poor durability of the plastic balls. |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 5:48am
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I wonder why Butterfly is taking so long to reveal a poly ball? Are they having problems meeting their own QA/QC standards? I hope they don't develop a Tenergy-type solution, that is, a ball that is clearly preferred by most but at a high price. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 9:38am
Is this transition period limited, or are they going to keep making celluloid ones? |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 10:18am
There is neither limited nor unlimited transition period, the ITTF rules just state: "2.03.03 The ball shall be made of celluloid or similar plastics material and shall be white or orange, and matt." http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/ittf_hb.html |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 10:19am
You would expect the transition period to be limited - up to 1st Jan 2016. To which, this would imply some celluloid balls would still be ITTF approved up until that date. In regards to manufacturing, I did ask a reputable retailer a few weeks back, and as far as they know, manufacturers have scaled back the production of celluloid balls. They didn't know of any cessation date. Putting things together, I would say there will be less supply of celluloid balls (at least well known brands). This could mean a possible rise in the prices of celluloid balls or worse still some models might become very hard to get. We are already seeing that in some markets. Please let us know if you know more. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 10:28am
Over time, rules in handbook do change. Rules are fitting for the current period. What's key is the roadmap. Although not exactly a roadmap, the ITTF Technical Leaflet T3 does make several mentions of the date 1/1/2016. For example, in the ball weight conformity section, it is mentioned "The non-celluloid balls, until January 1, 2016: Any weight between 2.65 and 2.82g is acceptable for any one ball, as well as for the sample mean." as such, one until further advised can expect the transition period will end 1/1/2016. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:01am
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Mastermind, it doesn't matter what the ITTF rules say if manufacturers don't actually market a celluloid ball that you can use. Plastic balls have been legal since the days of Halex but nobody for the last few decades actually sold one so it was a moot point. So let me rephrase the question. Does anybody know if manufacturers plan to continue to sell ITTF approved celluloid balls over the long run (i.e. once the current stock is sold)? From hithithit's last comment it sounds like they won't. I didn't care at all for the way ITTF brought about this change, but that train has left the station. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:12am
Unfortunately I can smell the old well known pattern of misrepresentation. Again, there is no transition period from celluloid to plastic, since there is no rule about any transition period from celluloid to plastic and the valid ITTF rule states: "2.03.03 The ball shall be made of celluloid or similar plastics material and shall be white or orange, and matt." (http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/ittf_hb.html) As for the date 01.01.2016, it is not the date of transition from celluloid to plastic. Someone has recently temporarily changed (illegally) the specifications for plastic balls only for the period till 01.01.2016, that is all. This has nothing to do with the celluloid balls at all. This temporary change is simply a trick, to make plastic balls temporarily better (than initially designed by the perpetrators) by allowing them temporarily to be heavier. After the players have swallowed the bait, according to the technical leaflet T3 the old bad specifications will automatically return and we'll have to use the real crap again: "Temporary amendmend for non-celluloid balls ...a temporary release of three specifications for non-celluloid balls is decided: Weight, bounce and hardness. ... It is valid until January 1, 2016. At this date, after all development is completed, the original specifications will apply." http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf, page 4 |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:20am
Well, we could as well assume the food manufacturers would stop selling food. Using Germany as an example, the overwhelming majority of teams did not choose the plastic ball for their competitions, they will use celluloid ball. So, why on Earth would manufacturers stop selling celluloid balls? This would be beyond reason. Maybe they can still be blackmailed to do that, I do not know. But just like that this is not going to happen. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 11:58am
| Don't forget, each year, ITTF releases a list of ITTF approved list of balls. It would be a dream to see the 2016 list now. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:04pm
Or bribed. Look, people will have to use some kind of ball, and if they can sell a more expensive one, well that would be good for them. There is no reason to expect that manufacturers will continue to make celluloid balls, indeed I would be very curious to know if major companies even continue to produce them now. And how much do you want to bet that at some point not too long from now, the rules will be amended again to make the celluloid balls illegal? Who would not find this implausible? Like I said, the train has left the station. (But when I play later today, I am going to use celluloid balls). |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:15pm
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Added thought. Companies have now invested a ton of money to develop the ability to make balls out of these new materials and to somewhat different size/weight specs, under some mixtyure of coercion or collusion with ITTF. Now these companies intend to recoup their investment. They have to. They would be undercutting themselves by continuing to sell a celluloid ball that players prefer, and ITTF probably made some promises to the companies ITTF would at some point gurantee that they would not face competition from any small companies that might have continued to make a celluloid product without undergoing the expenses of developing a plastic ball. This only makes sense. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:16pm
Well, I certainly trust the perpetrators to keep doing what they have been doing one way or another, but we certainly should not run ahead of them. The outcome of the plastic ball swindle might be as well that it will be gone next year. In the market economy there will be celluloid balls supply as long as there is demand. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:17pm
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But table tennis market is controlled in part by what ITTF decides. We will see what happens in the future, but my best guess is that before too long, celluloid balls will no longer be made. Of course, this provide a convenient excuse for manufacturers to increase their profit margin a bit. |
Posted By: Mastermind
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 12:24pm
As long as celluloid balls are legal for the competitions and there is demand, there will be supply. At the moment the demand for the celluloid balls e.g. in Germany is almost 100%. But I respect your guessing  . |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 5:41pm
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I think I will switch completely to the plastic balls when the new made in Japan Nittaku balls become generally available. It is superior to the Jooola 40+ ball, which is in turn a lot better than the XSF ball. |
Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 5:58pm
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Baal, also don't think of USA/Europe as the world. Most players in the rest of the world will be using the celluloid ball as long as they are cheaper. The price of a ball in USA/Europe means nothing to players. But to the rest of the world that cost is very significant. ------------- Blade: Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 6:15pm
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Probably you are right about that, although players who are serious about their competition will also be influenced by what the tournament organizers in their countries decide to use. Players who have a more recreational intent will use celluloid balls as long as they can get them*. I think the plastic balls will be more expensive forever, since I strongly suspect that is the whole point---I have been pretty outspoken in my disbelief in the mythical "worldwide ban on celluloid". Also, I am sad to report that the only plastic ball I have tried so far that has pretty good performance, the Nittaku Made In Japan 40+ will almost certainly be the most expensive. *I am pretty much a purely recreational player now, but a lot of my favorite playing partners play many tournaments, so I need to use what they use. |
Posted By: Pushdeep
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 8:12pm
| It doesn't make sense that companies want to sell the more expensive product. A for-profit company would logically want the lowest price with the highest profit. If a product has to be more expensive because it costs more to produce, resulting in the same profit, what good is that for the company? |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 8:34pm
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PD, my theory is that the companies will charge more for a product that at the moment may not cost more to produce to (a) recoup their R&D costs, and (2) make more money over the long term (since higher prices means higher profit as long as sales don't drop). The change in rules gives everyone the opportunity to jack up prices, as happened the last time balls changed size and even more so after the speed glue ban (for rubber). But I'm just theorizing, I certainly don't have any inside information. I certainly don't know what all goes into their production costs and how this changed one way or the other with new materials. Competition could put a bit of a lid on price increases (assuming no collusion), but it's not like there are a lot of companies out there producing these things. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/27/2014 at 9:08pm
There was supposed to be a reduction in shipping costs because these things were no longer flammable - I wonder if/when they will pass that reduction on to the consumer... ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: TurboZ
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 5:24am
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I don't remember where I read it but yes the cost of transporting celluloid is higher because they are considered dangerous goods and have to keep the temperature lower than transporting meat. But the cost of new material is like 3 times more (if I remember correctly) plus the (possibly) higher failure rate means that there is not much reduction of production cost to talk about. ------------- http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53150&title=feedback-turboz - My Feedback |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 12:44pm
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I can see for sure why cellulose nitrate is expensive to transport, but it is not obvious to me why cellulose acetate (the new material) would be more expensive. Maybe wturber would know. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 1:29pm
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.. Someone let us know when ZeroPong starts selling the 40P for the same price as Gambler three stars !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: ChichoFicho
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 3:52pm
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I have about 500 of the old balls and, so around 2019 but then again they might change the ball again till then. ------------- Darker Speed 70 Hammond FA Speed Tyotokusen |
Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 4:06pm
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I probably will begin playing with the new balls exclusively pretty much immediately as soon as an order I just placed comes in. Unfortunately, I'm dealing a bit with a nagging knee injury so I am not sure if I will be playing in a fall tournament or not that I was originally planning on. I'm assuming that one will be with the old celluloid ball. After that, I'd imagine any tournaments I might play in, really looking at 2015, I'm assuming are going to be with the poly ball. So I want to get acclimated now.
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Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 10:10pm
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In an earlier discussion, it struck me that I didn't have a clear understanding on the future direction of the celluloid ball - simply put, when exactly will the celluloid balls be phased out? So I did a quick investigation by getting in touch with ITTF and a major TT manufacturer. The end result? There are currently no plans to phase out celluloid balls - they will still be manufactured and ITTF will continue approving celluloid balls. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 10:20pm
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Nonetheless, once the pro's start using plastic, retailers might as well sit their celluloid balls on the shelf next to their 38m's hoping for future collectors or nostalgic value. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 10:22pm
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In fact, the choice of ball by ittf tournaments will go a long way to determining which ball emerges as the "nittaku" of plastic balls. I would imagine the deal to get their balls used in the next olympics will be pretty lucrative. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 10:43pm
You must mean celluloid... I still don't understand why why people don't realise some people don't realize that all that needs to happen is for pro tournaments to no longer use celluloid. If that never happens, celluloid survives. Otherwise, it dies. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 11:21pm
My guess is it will be Nittaku. Their plastic ball is better as things stand now. |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/28/2014 at 11:46pm
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@Baal, Will you make a complete switch to plastic when the Nittaku made in Japan balls come out, even though celluloids aren't getting phased out? |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 5:14am
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The club that I play at supplies training balls so I will be exclusive when the club switches over. I don't even use 3 star balls unless I or my opponent use our own and since the club doesn't have barriers between tables, that's pretty rare. ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 6:33am
| Since every club in Belgium is allowed to use either the new balls or the current ones (the only obligation is : you have to finish the match with the same model of balls which have been used from the beginning), I will keep on training with the celluloid ones. Some clubs will play with the poly balls and others, like mine will keep on playing with the old ones. What a mess in Belgium ! |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 8:07am
I thought DHS already had a monopoly on all that stuff. Will be pretty interesting though if there is truly open bidding/testing once again. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: hithithit
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 8:18am
+1 DHS are the official balls supplier for the 2016 Olympics and just about every major events for the next 2 years. That's the reason why I have purchased their plastic balls. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 9:15am
That is the big question. I honestly don't know. It will depend on price (not yet established for Nittaku Japan but most likely expensive), durability (unknown for Nittaku Japan plastic, but bad for other plastic balls), and what my playing partners prefer, and the later will be determined by what most of the competitions in the US will be doing. And since DHS seems to have Having both kinds of balls still made, sold, and legal is going to make things very messy. I know Next Level thinks having both kinds of balls would make interesting diversity, like having grass and clay courts in tennis, but my experience playing with these things is that if they coexist with celluloid balls it will be a disaster Since there is no "worldwide ban on celluloid" I am playing with celluloid balls at the moment. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 9:28am
There. Fixed it. On a more serious note, the events that used the balls would be different events just like hardbat is separate from ITTF table tennis. Plastic ball events vs. celluloid ball events. I don't expect this to happen as the ball that will be most commonly used will be what the pros use and what the manufacturers make widely available with that in mind and there seems to be a desire to move away from celluloid for whatever reason. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 9:41am
The clamor for extra events based on the type of ball is so loud I can't hear it. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 07/29/2014 at 9:45am
It would naturally exist if the ITTF didn't regulate things so strongly. And one event might end up dominating the others. Do you think that the 38mm ball wouldn't be in use today if not for the fact that the ITTF did away with it? ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |