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Warning about Paypal as gift (friends and family)

Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Buy and Sell
Forum Name: For sale
Forum Description: Table tennis equiptment for sale or purchase.
Moderator: baal
Assistant Moderators:

URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67818
Printed Date: 07/16/2019 at 6:18am
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Topic: Warning about Paypal as gift (friends and family)
Posted By: Baal
Subject: Warning about Paypal as gift (friends and family)
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 9:57am
The moderators would like to strongly discourage the use of the paypal "gift" or the "friends or family" options for transactions on MyTT.   If you chose those options, Paypal will not provide any type of protection to the buyer.  We believe it is unreasonable for a seller to demand this, even if it does save a few bucks.

A new member to MyTT, who is an expert on Paypal, suggests that if you link a Paypal payment to a credit card, the credit card company may provide some protection if you have to dispute the transaction.



Replies:
Posted By: Antuan
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 10:25am
Perfect! I think sellers must include 4% fee in their prices.

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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:52pm
Sellers can set whatever price they wish and if a buyer can accept the price a deal is made.  But the buyer needs to be able to protect themselves and the gift option does not allow that.

I have noticed that other websites where people buy and sell specialized items (not table tennis) have totally banned the practice of sellers requesting payment as a gift.  Here this would mean that a moderator would have to go through every For Sale thread and edit out requests for gift options.  I am not going to do that.

But I think the culture here needs to be that this is not a reasonable request by a seller, even if it adds 3-4% to the price of the transaction. 


Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:15pm
While there are many members here who I have no concerns using PayPal gift with (AndySmith, fatt, JimT, piligrim, sahiggs, tibi, speedy, chronos, assiduous, etc.), I would be extremely leery of using PayPal gift with a new user who has no rep. The exception being if one of the mentioned members vouched for them.

The mods have enough to do without an additional task of micromanaging this, in my opinion. It behooves all of us to exercise good judgment.

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Hayabusa Zi ST/FH:H3-50med/BH:GoldArc5-42.5-2.0


Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 2:31pm
Yeah, I agreed with Baal on this issue. The default should be not paypal as gift unless the buyer has a good reputation then the total can be reduce 3-4% with paypal as gift option. This is an open forum and there are definitely some bad bugs.  


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 11:01pm
The moderators would like to change the culture around here so that even transactions with people with a good reputation would not be done with the paypal gift option.  But like I said, this is not an official rule (for now), just a strong recommendation.


Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 11:21pm
I wonder if this would cause a reversal of risk... where trusted sellers would now have to worry about buyers that would scam.

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Hayabusa Zi ST/FH:H3-50med/BH:GoldArc5-42.5-2.0


Posted By: angelleye
Date Posted: 08/06/2014 at 11:28pm
For future reference, it goes beyond just the gift option.  If you specify that the payment will be a "personal payment" in some versions of PayPal it will show "friends or family" as opposed to "goods or services" for the payment reason.  If you choose friends and family / personal it won't charge a fee to the seller, but then it works just like gift where they won't honor buyer protection of any kind.

It's a handy thing to know about when you do know and trust the person you're paying as it can indeed save money for one or the other, but it should be used with caution.

Another good practice to get into is to set the funding source of the PayPal payment during checkout to a credit card.  This way even if PayPal won't honor protection for some reason, you can always call the credit card company directly and submit a dispute/chargeback.  Credit card companies want to protect their consumers, so they will give you an immediate credit "pending investigation" and I very rarely see people get denied completely when they file chargebacks directly with cc companies.  


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:30am
Originally posted by angelleye angelleye wrote:



Another good practice to get into is to set the funding source of the PayPal payment during checkout to a credit card.  This way even if PayPal won't honor protection for some reason, you can always call the credit card company directly and submit a dispute/chargeback.  Credit card companies want to protect their consumers, so they will give you an immediate credit "pending investigation" and I very rarely see people get denied completely when they file chargebacks directly with cc companies.  


This is very good advice, and welcome to the forum!  As they tell boxers, "protect yourself at all times".  I edited my opening comment to include this.  Thanks!!!!


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:40am
Originally posted by the_theologian the_theologian wrote:

I wonder if this would cause a reversal of risk... where trusted sellers would now have to worry about buyers that would scam.


Yes, it could have that effect, but would someone be able to constantly dispute every time they buy something?  You have definitely identified something that we have to also be aware of.  At the end of the day, this is the internet, and you enter into transactions here at your own risk.  The moderators and owner of this forum are not responsible for the risks that you take here.  We do our best to identify and ban scammers and people who cause problems, but our ability to do that has limits. 

Also, this is another reason why we are not making this a hard and fast rule. 


Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 6:14am
if buyer uses cc to pay as a gift,the buyer needs to pay fee.


Posted By: Antuan
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 6:34am
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

if buyer uses cc to pay as a gift,the buyer needs to pay fee.
If you pay as gift there is no fee.Wink


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Posted By: angelleye
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Antuan Antuan wrote:

Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

if buyer uses cc to pay as a gift,the buyer needs to pay fee.
If you pay as gift there is no fee.Wink

There is when you specify cc as the funding source.  The only way to avoid the fee with personal or gift payments is to pay with PayPal or bank funds.


Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 9:31am
What is the cost to seller if buyer pays as payment?  I propose seller add 2% to what they expect to receive to the cost, kind of split the cost with the buyer.  As a buyer I don't mind paying 2% extra for a peace of mind, specially by paying  as gift I already have to add some fee, so the 2% is nothing.  As a seller you may get a little less than if the payment is as gift, but on the other hand you may get more expose to new buyers.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 10:20am
People can work it out as part of the negotiation.  But I would still suggest to a buyer that if a seller is demanding payment as a gift, it is an unreasonable request. 


Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 1:00pm
Actually, most sales here are at about -10% ebay prices (ebay fee). If someone sells at ebay, they need to pay paypal fee as well. So sellers do not lose money at all. 


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 9:13pm
I will no longer ask other members, unless it's one of my close buddies, to pay as $ to family/friends. It places both parties in an awkward position.

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Posted By: viva
Date Posted: 08/07/2014 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

I will no longer ask other members, unless it's one of my close buddies, to pay as $ to family/friends. It places both parties in an awkward position.

Tommy if I ever have a transaction with you I will pay as family/friend to you and a few other respected members. Trouble arises with new people trying to scam everyone.


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 08/08/2014 at 12:00am
Thanks, Viva!
And, I agree with you. Avoid $ as friend/family if you don't know the person . . . be smart!


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Posted By: kitzter
Date Posted: 08/10/2014 at 10:36pm
Hi,

I think if payment is done by invoice/bill, there will be buyers protection. Correct me if i'm wrong.  


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/28/2014 at 12:50pm
Check the "warning about scam" thread above this one for a case study.  See pages 2 and 3.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/10/2014 at 12:38am
Protect yourself at all times, and if you have doubts about a seller don't make a deal.  Many of the people who sell here have long track records and you can find threads about them.  These are people who are scrupulously honest.  Be careful with people who are new to the forum or for whom there is not much history.  Do not use the Paypal gift option with people you do not know well.


Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 09/10/2014 at 12:40am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Protect yourself at all times, and if you have doubts about a seller don't make a deal.  Many of the people who sell here have long track records and you can find threads about them.  These are people who are scrupulously honest.  Be careful with people who are new to the forum or for whom there is not much history.  Do not use the Paypal gift option with people you do not know well.


+1

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Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 09/14/2014 at 12:33pm
I no longer pay as $ to friends or family or ask others to pay me in this fashion unless they are friends or family. I should mention, however, there are a handful of MYTT members that I consider friends, many of which have either visited me or I visited them . . . Guangdong, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, New York, Vegas, etc.

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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 4:23pm
I don't think sellers are always doing this because of the 3.5% fee.  I think they're doing it because paypal offers them no protection at all on international shipments that are untraceable.

For example, I've lost a lot of packages to India and a few to Israel and Turkey, and a couple to South America.  There is no postal tracking to those countries.  Therefore, the buyer is free to claim they never got it and paypal will immediately refund their money upon complaint.

However many sellers you may think are out there ripping people off, I can promise you there's 10x the number of buyers.  In other instances, I can imagine the buyer gets frustrated over not receiving the package.  They file a claim or the sender refunds on request.  Legit at the time.

Then the package shows up from customs a month or two later.  There's no tracking.  How many customers are going to be honest enough to tell the seller that so far after the refund.  In my experience, exactly none.

I've been called a racist against a number of countries.  Sorry, it's not the country I'm prejudice against.  I just don't trust their postal systems.  It's a really tough spot for sellers.

So before you make a judgement, put yourself in their place.




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Posted By: angelleye
Date Posted: 01/09/2015 at 6:56pm
The simple solution to that is to ship with a trackable service.  USPS doesn't track well.  UPS and FedEx do.


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 12:04am
Nobody wants to pay for that. They want it po cheap but you eat the risk. It's just not feasible for smaller orders.

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W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: angelleye
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 12:36am
Well then you're back to the decision of risk vs. reward.  It's far from an unsolvable problem, though.


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/10/2015 at 7:38pm
My only point being, I've asked customers to send as gift before, and there are reasons why. As you say, they can make the decision.

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W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: ttping85
Date Posted: 01/11/2015 at 7:41am
The custom declaration number can give you minimal tracking of your package abroad on uses website even when you didn't pay for tracking. You can't follow the whole shipping process but at least it says when it was shipped, when it left the US and when it was delivered.

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Posted By: joshuadn11
Date Posted: 01/14/2015 at 4:01pm
usually the seller would ask for "gift" or personal/goods because they won't have to pay some fee.

But like the post #angelleye said above, it's good to have at least some tracking number.



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Joshie de GoIden


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/15/2015 at 12:07am
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I don't think sellers are always doing this because of the 3.5% fee.  I think they're doing it because paypal offers them no protection at all on international shipments that are untraceable.

For example, I've lost a lot of packages to India and a few to Israel and Turkey, and a couple to South America.  There is no postal tracking to those countries.  Therefore, the buyer is free to claim they never got it and paypal will immediately refund their money upon complaint.

However many sellers you may think are out there ripping people off, I can promise you there's 10x the number of buyers.  In other instances, I can imagine the buyer gets frustrated over not receiving the package.  They file a claim or the sender refunds on request.  Legit at the time.

Then the package shows up from customs a month or two later.  There's no tracking.  How many customers are going to be honest enough to tell the seller that so far after the refund.  In my experience, exactly none.

I've been called a racist against a number of countries.  Sorry, it's not the country I'm prejudice against.  I just don't trust their postal systems.  It's a really tough spot for sellers.

So before you make a judgement, put yourself in their place.




Yes, those would be special cases and you would be perfectly justified there.  But people on this forum have been insisting on buyers using paypal as a gift for shipments within North America.  I don't believe that is reasonable.


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/16/2015 at 10:23am
yeah, that's silly

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W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: Henry0608
Date Posted: 02/04/2015 at 6:10pm
Good topic. Pay pal by friend should not recommend for buyers.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 05/02/2015 at 10:51am
Seriously, do not use the Paypal gift option.  Even if someone has what appears to be good feedback here, you are taking a risk. 

The last couple of days we have another example of someone who paid by the Paypal gift option and is now unhappy because he appears to be out several hundred US dollars in what looks pretty  convincingly like a scam from someone who had made successful transactions here with other people. 

Circumstances change.  Someone who has had successful transactions in the past may still do something unexpected.

I think the people here who buy and sell the most, the most reliable people, the ones who you really can count on here to be completely honest, would agree with me on this.  Don't use the paypal gift option.

Sellers, if for reasons Cole mentions above you are concerned about shipping to countries where you cannot track the package, do not sell to people in those countries. 


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 9:19pm
Several buyers managed to avoid being ripped off by our latest scammer because they took my advice and did not use Paypal as a gift (friends and family option).

As they say in boxing, "Protect yourselves at all times".  Good advice.

They also say, "Obey my commands at all times".  That is also good advice!


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/29/2016 at 11:16am
Another member has gotten into a jam using PayPal gift option with a new member here who is probably a scammer.

Be careful! 


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/12/2017 at 3:29am
Why would a buyer give up all protection to save a few bucks? Are you nuts?

If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for your moderator, who has to referee disputes. It's not fun.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 07/17/2017 at 2:53pm
Another user has used the PayPal Friends and Family option to buy a blade that as yet he has not received.  He has no recourse and will not get his money back. 

Be smart.  Don't use the "Friends and Family" option (the gift option).



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